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Re: How much do you charge for a VR??

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  • jeanpierrelavoie
    I consider a VR, in my case, to be a Flash or Quick Time movie for internet resolution (around 6000 x 3000 pixels equirectangular projection), not high
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 2, 2008
      I consider a VR, in my case, to be a Flash or Quick Time movie for
      internet resolution (around 6000 x 3000 pixels equirectangular
      projection), not high resolution. I supply a small thumbnail image
      for the VR so that the customer integrates it on his own in his
      website.



      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson Mendes" <nmendes@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > This is a helpful topic, and it's nice to know what are the prices
      > charged for a VR all over the world (I'm in Portugal).
      >
      > Now, my question is, what do you consider "a VR"? Is it the group of
      > photos taken (say, 6+2 photos) stitched to a panorama?
      > Or do you generate the QTVR's or another kind of display method for
      > VR? If so, do you provide alternative size movies? (Like one low
      > resolution and one full res).
      > I think all these factors contribute to the final price and it's
      nice
      > to know what "packages" are you providing.
      >
      > Nelson Mendes
      >
      > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "jeanpierrelavoie" <j_plavoie@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > That's a good question I keep asking myself since I started to
      produce
      > > VR and have customers. It is not an easy question depending on
      where
      > > you live and what is the market you shoot for. Here in Canada, I
      would
      > > say from $250 to $500 canadian dollars. Is it too low, is it too
      > > high? What do you think about it?
      > >
      > > Any thoughts are welcome!
      > >
      >
    • ebig_foto
      I have a friend who specializes in clientele that need 360 images on an ongoing basis - RE rentals, not sales. He charges a VERY low rate which includes web
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 3, 2008
        I have a friend who specializes in clientele that need 360 images on an
        ongoing basis - RE rentals, not sales.

        He charges a VERY low rate which includes web pages, authoring, and hosting.
        It is seen as too good a deal to pass up...and he keeps busy.

        The initial minimal fee becomes a subscription which goes on forever, as
        long as the site is "hot." Until it's not.

        Another way of saying - there are a lot of ways of doing business.

        Ed

        --
        View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-much-do-you-charge-for-a-VR---tp15780068p15821304.html
        Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
      • Yuval Levy
        ... it depends on the quality of the work provided, its use and how unique it is. rule number one of marketing is that the selling price of good is not related
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 4, 2008
          jeanpierrelavoie wrote:
          > Here in Canada, I would say from $250 to $500 canadian dollars.

          it depends on the quality of the work provided, its use and how unique
          it is. rule number one of marketing is that the selling price of good is
          not related to production costs. It only has to be higher.

          To be higher it is important to be aware of production costs, which
          include amortization and dead time.

          Some cost factors are fixed and known in advance, others not. Some are
          predictable, others not. And of course it depends on the quality of the
          delivery.

          As an example, mileage is predictable but variable. Before you even
          start shooting, you spend time and money to get on location. If shoots
          can be grouped in a single time and location, you can spread these costs
          over multiple VR. Else, I charge for mileage. My charge here in Quebec
          was 0.55$/Km for the past three years.

          If you need to do a lot of retouching at nadir and seam, the time spent
          in Photoshop is not always predictable. An hourly rate for retouching on
          top of the price for shooting and basic stitching may be appropriate.

          Your average price look reasonable to me. Unfortunately it will preclude
          some markets to you, due to competition by "drive-by shooters". You
          don't want to be in those markets anyway, where the going price is
          $20/pano but the quality is nowhere near the high quality you produce.

          Yuv
        • panotonic01
          Hi all, I think $ 250 is a good starting point. Underneath, possibly for real estate agents, for 3 to 6 months using, the time of the sale process. After
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 4, 2008
            Hi all,

            I think $ 250 is a good starting point. Underneath, possibly for real
            estate agents, for 3 to 6 months using, the time of the sale process.

            After everything is expandable depending on the complexity of
            shooting.So no limit for the maximum. I will be glad to hear someone
            sell a Vr for $5000.

            But I would like for mines nexts submissions, add a cost to use the
            VR for a period of time such as:
            $ 200 additional on production costs for 3 years of use , $ 300 for 5
            years, etc., but never a lifetime, VRs still property of the
            photographer.
            Fee is expandable if the compagny is international or local.

            It s the rule that applies photographers authors like CAPIC (THE
            CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF PHOTOGRAPHERS AND ILLUSTRATORS IN
            COMMUNICATIONS).

            It is in my opinion the way to do so that our work is a reward its
            fair value.
            I hope to encourage more of a demarche in this and especially Jean
            Pierre and Yuval, because we are in the same area. For this benefit
            to all if we go in this direction billing and enhance our rights.

            Any reactions of people who already use this system?

            I hope to be understand with my little english and especially by my
            customers coming.

            Yannis
          • Keith Martin
            ... Very good points, Yuval. Just as an additional comment here, it is worth making sure the client doesn t see your retouching charges as paying for time
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 4, 2008
              Sometime around 4/3/08 (at 07:19 -0500) Yuval Levy said:

              >If you need to do a lot of retouching at nadir and seam, the time spent
              >in Photoshop is not always predictable. An hourly rate for retouching on
              >top of the price for shooting and basic stitching may be appropriate.

              Very good points, Yuval.

              Just as an additional comment here, it is worth making sure the
              client doesn't see your retouching charges as paying for 'time spent
              correcting your mistakes'. If high quality is desired, most panos
              will need at least a small amount of retouching work.

              k
            • Chris Thomas
              Hi Yannis. I m a member of CAPIC and I don t sell my copyright on Panos to clients either. As you suggested.. I license the usage. The rate that I m
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 4, 2008
                Hi Yannis.

                I'm a member of CAPIC and I don't sell my copyright on Panos to clients
                either.

                As you suggested.. I license the usage. The rate that I'm implimenting in
                Calgary and Vancouver is:

                *A "Capture" fee of $600.00.
                *Panos shot on the day of the "Capture" are licensed for $500.00/ year.
                *They can license 1 ........ several or none, if they like..
                Nobody has ever not licensed at least 1!

                I don't "host" the panos.... I turn over a web ready folder with .swf and
                xml files.
                I use FPP for this.

                Cheers
                chris


                Chris Thomas
                Photographer
                cell... 403-615-1212
                In North America
                call... 1-800-870-5110
                http://www.christhomas.com

                -----Original Message-----
                From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                Behalf Of panotonic01
                Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 6:41 AM
                To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: How much do you charge for a VR??

                Hi all,

                I think $ 250 is a good starting point. Underneath, possibly for real
                estate agents, for 3 to 6 months using, the time of the sale process.

                After everything is expandable depending on the complexity of
                shooting.So no limit for the maximum. I will be glad to hear someone
                sell a Vr for $5000.

                But I would like for mines nexts submissions, add a cost to use the
                VR for a period of time such as:
                $ 200 additional on production costs for 3 years of use , $ 300 for 5
                years, etc., but never a lifetime, VRs still property of the
                photographer.
                Fee is expandable if the compagny is international or local.

                It s the rule that applies photographers authors like CAPIC (THE
                CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF PHOTOGRAPHERS AND ILLUSTRATORS IN
                COMMUNICATIONS).

                It is in my opinion the way to do so that our work is a reward its
                fair value.
                I hope to encourage more of a demarche in this and especially Jean
                Pierre and Yuval, because we are in the same area. For this benefit
                to all if we go in this direction billing and enhance our rights.

                Any reactions of people who already use this system?

                I hope to be understand with my little english and especially by my
                customers coming.

                Yannis
                [Chris Thomas] snip
                .
              • panotonic01
                Thanks Chris, My price list is very flexible with customer, but I guess no high enough, rarely people deal the price with me. Do I have the right price or a
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 5, 2008
                  Thanks Chris,

                  My price list is very flexible with customer, but I guess no high
                  enough, rarely people deal the price with me.
                  Do I have the right price or a too good price?
                  Anyway, I m a youg VR photographer, I improve my shooting and
                  processing every day (in parallel with my price list..)

                  An advice? Charge a bit higher than you thought (We are too modest)

                  ;­-) Yannis




                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Chris Thomas <chris@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Yannis.
                  >
                  > I'm a member of CAPIC and I don't sell my copyright on Panos to
                  clients
                  > either.
                  >
                  > As you suggested.. I license the usage. The rate that I'm
                  implimenting in
                  > Calgary and Vancouver is:
                  >
                  > *A "Capture" fee of $600.00.
                  > *Panos shot on the day of the "Capture" are licensed for $500.00/
                  year.
                  > *They can license 1 ........ several or none, if they like..
                  > Nobody has ever not licensed at least 1!
                  >
                  > I don't "host" the panos.... I turn over a web ready folder
                  with .swf and
                  > xml files.
                  > I use FPP for this.
                  >
                  > Cheers
                  > chris
                  >
                  >
                  > Chris Thomas
                  > Photographer
                  > cell... 403-615-1212
                  > In North America
                  > call... 1-800-870-5110
                  > http://www.christhomas.com
                  >
                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                  > Behalf Of panotonic01
                  > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 6:41 AM
                  > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: How much do you charge for a VR??
                  >
                  > Hi all,
                  >
                  > I think $ 250 is a good starting point. Underneath, possibly for
                  real
                  > estate agents, for 3 to 6 months using, the time of the sale
                  process.
                  >
                  > After everything is expandable depending on the complexity of
                  > shooting.So no limit for the maximum. I will be glad to hear someone
                  > sell a Vr for $5000.
                  >
                  > But I would like for mines nexts submissions, add a cost to use the
                  > VR for a period of time such as:
                  > $ 200 additional on production costs for 3 years of use , $ 300 for
                  5
                  > years, etc., but never a lifetime, VRs still property of the
                  > photographer.
                  > Fee is expandable if the compagny is international or local.
                  >
                  > It s the rule that applies photographers authors like CAPIC (THE
                  > CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF PHOTOGRAPHERS AND ILLUSTRATORS IN
                  > COMMUNICATIONS).
                  >
                  > It is in my opinion the way to do so that our work is a reward its
                  > fair value.
                  > I hope to encourage more of a demarche in this and especially Jean
                  > Pierre and Yuval, because we are in the same area. For this benefit
                  > to all if we go in this direction billing and enhance our rights.
                  >
                  > Any reactions of people who already use this system?
                  >
                  > I hope to be understand with my little english and especially by my
                  > customers coming.
                  >
                  > Yannis
                  > [Chris Thomas] snip
                  > .
                  >
                • Chris Thomas
                  Best Advise I can give is Keep your copyright.. Or charge them a fortune! Best of luck chris Chris Thomas Photographer cell... 403-615-1212 In North America
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 5, 2008
                    Best Advise I can give is

                    Keep your copyright.. Or charge them a fortune!



                    Best of luck

                    chris



                    Chris Thomas

                    Photographer

                    cell... 403-615-1212

                    In North America

                    call... 1-800-870-5110

                    <http://www.christhomas.com/> http://www.christhomas.com



                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                    Behalf Of panotonic01
                    Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 11:38 AM
                    To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: How much do you charge for a VR??



                    Thanks Chris,

                    My price list is very flexible with customer, but I guess no high
                    enough, rarely people deal the price with me.
                    Do I have the right price or a too good price?
                    Anyway, I m a youg VR photographer, I improve my shooting and
                    processing every day (in parallel with my price list..)

                    An advice? Charge a bit higher than you thought (We are too modest)

                    ;--) Yannis

                    --- In PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
                    Chris Thomas <chris@...> wrote:
                    [Chris Thomas] snip




                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • eli20sf
                    Hi Everyone, I m re-lighting this fire. So I ve taken off pricing from my website because I felt like I was too high for realtors, and too low for
                    Message 9 of 23 , May 14, 2008
                      Hi Everyone,

                      I'm re-lighting this fire. So I've taken off pricing from my
                      website because I felt like I was too high for realtors, and too low
                      for corporate/commercial.

                      I'm creating 6880x3440 pano's w/ my d200/10.5/360precision/realviz
                      (just got PTGUI this week, so I'll be moving over asap) ... and I'm
                      just bouncing around with pricing (too afraid to charge to much, but
                      realizing I do quality work,and it take TIME ... AND I want to
                      charge as much as similar vr photographers doing the same caliber
                      work).

                      I re-read the thread, and it looks like licsensing our work could
                      work out. I'm curious to hear more about how each of you figure
                      your price structure out ... and what, on average, most of us are
                      charing for comparable work. And another question is ... how do you
                      break your pricing to get some of the realty market ... cause
                      realtors are cheap.

                      Thanks again, I hope this isn't a boring subject to most of you.

                      Eli Poblitz
                      http://www.bayareavr.com
                    • Georgia Real Tours
                      ... I m thinking for the generic realtor you are looking at using Mercedes-class equipment in a Pinto-class environment. Okay, maybe Taurus-class environment.
                      Message 10 of 23 , May 14, 2008
                        On 5/14/08, eli20sf <epoblitz@...> wrote:

                        > I'm creating 6880x3440 pano's w/ my d200/10.5/360precision/realviz
                        > (just got PTGUI this week, so I'll be moving over asap) ... and I'm
                        > just bouncing around with pricing (too afraid to charge to much, but
                        > realizing I do quality work,and it take TIME ... AND I want to
                        > charge as much as similar vr photographers doing the same caliber
                        > work).

                        I'm thinking for the generic realtor you are looking at using
                        Mercedes-class equipment in a Pinto-class environment. Okay, maybe
                        Taurus-class environment. It seems to me your equipment is right for
                        the commercial/corporate stuff, and if you prefer to do the quality
                        work you're set; I'd concentrate on them as often as possible.

                        OTOH, real estate is more likely to pay for your daily life more
                        quickly, in my opinion. It looks like you are going to have to take
                        more shots at higher resolution than you really want; fortunately with
                        your precision head you should be able to take a massive chunk out of
                        the processing since the stitching ought to be almost trivial for you.

                        Ironically, I just sat down this evening to create a "package" menu
                        for my prospective clients; as it turns out most people are completely
                        baffled by a an 8pt font spreadsheet with bizarre words intermingling
                        with rows and columns of numbers. I'll spring that on them when they
                        ask, but for now I'm just going to give them the 1-page menu which
                        covers everything from an introductory offer to an open-ended
                        high-quality package.

                        Out in Middle Georgia, unlike the Bay Area, housing prices are
                        affordable. Which means that commissions are much lower, as is the
                        cost of living (if you don't count fuel and food these days). That
                        means my pricing is going to be a lot lower than yours needs to be
                        (and you'll find I'm in the vast majority when it comes to
                        cost-of-living vs. the Bay Area). An example is that $75,000 gets you
                        a decent 4-bed 2-bath home that is not necessarily within smelling
                        distance of your neighbor, and I've seen TLC vacant homes for $30K.

                        That said, I'll be happy to shoot you a copy of what I've done
                        off-list if you want. Bear in mind, too, that it is a first draft and
                        may change; it is merely a reflection on what I feel I can offer for a
                        fair price and hoping those fall within what realtors consider
                        reasonable for the price. Feel free to pilfer whatever may help you
                        (if that wasn't already implied.) ;c)


                        > and what, on average, most of us are
                        > charing for comparable work.

                        Pssst! Just a reminder.... the Bay Area isn't comparable to most of
                        the rest of the world. ;c) Look at average wages for the areas you
                        compare as well as average home prices to get a better feel for the
                        "exchange rate" between where you are and where the comp is.

                        Cheers,
                        Robert~

                        --
                        Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                        ATL: 678-438-6955
                        garealtours.com
                      • Daley
                        Hi Robert, do you mind send a copy off-list to my email as well, more than grateful to have it. As I mentioned on another thread, I having real hard time to
                        Message 11 of 23 , May 16, 2008
                          Hi Robert, do you mind send a copy off-list to my email as well,
                          more than grateful to have it. As I mentioned on another thread, I
                          having real hard time to figure out what is the right structure to
                          price because from country where I come from, there isn't a market
                          for this thing yet. I am alone here and crying for help! So forum
                          like this one and ppl like you can really do great help. Thanks
                          again.


                          Daley.
                          MAlaysia
                          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Georgia Real Tours"
                          <garealtours@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > On 5/14/08, eli20sf <epoblitz@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > > I'm creating 6880x3440 pano's w/ my
                          d200/10.5/360precision/realviz
                          > > (just got PTGUI this week, so I'll be moving over asap) ... and
                          I'm
                          > > just bouncing around with pricing (too afraid to charge to
                          much, but
                          > > realizing I do quality work,and it take TIME ... AND I want to
                          > > charge as much as similar vr photographers doing the same
                          caliber
                          > > work).
                          >
                          > I'm thinking for the generic realtor you are looking at using
                          > Mercedes-class equipment in a Pinto-class environment. Okay, maybe
                          > Taurus-class environment. It seems to me your equipment is right
                          for
                          > the commercial/corporate stuff, and if you prefer to do the quality
                          > work you're set; I'd concentrate on them as often as possible.
                          >
                          > OTOH, real estate is more likely to pay for your daily life more
                          > quickly, in my opinion. It looks like you are going to have to
                          take
                          > more shots at higher resolution than you really want; fortunately
                          with
                          > your precision head you should be able to take a massive chunk out
                          of
                          > the processing since the stitching ought to be almost trivial for
                          you.
                          >
                          > Ironically, I just sat down this evening to create a "package" menu
                          > for my prospective clients; as it turns out most people are
                          completely
                          > baffled by a an 8pt font spreadsheet with bizarre words
                          intermingling
                          > with rows and columns of numbers. I'll spring that on them when
                          they
                          > ask, but for now I'm just going to give them the 1-page menu which
                          > covers everything from an introductory offer to an open-ended
                          > high-quality package.
                          >
                          > Out in Middle Georgia, unlike the Bay Area, housing prices are
                          > affordable. Which means that commissions are much lower, as is the
                          > cost of living (if you don't count fuel and food these days). That
                          > means my pricing is going to be a lot lower than yours needs to be
                          > (and you'll find I'm in the vast majority when it comes to
                          > cost-of-living vs. the Bay Area). An example is that $75,000 gets
                          you
                          > a decent 4-bed 2-bath home that is not necessarily within smelling
                          > distance of your neighbor, and I've seen TLC vacant homes for $30K.
                          >
                          > That said, I'll be happy to shoot you a copy of what I've done
                          > off-list if you want. Bear in mind, too, that it is a first draft
                          and
                          > may change; it is merely a reflection on what I feel I can offer
                          for a
                          > fair price and hoping those fall within what realtors consider
                          > reasonable for the price. Feel free to pilfer whatever may help
                          you
                          > (if that wasn't already implied.) ;c)
                          >
                          >
                          > > and what, on average, most of us are
                          > > charing for comparable work.
                          >
                          > Pssst! Just a reminder.... the Bay Area isn't comparable to most
                          of
                          > the rest of the world. ;c) Look at average wages for the areas
                          you
                          > compare as well as average home prices to get a better feel for the
                          > "exchange rate" between where you are and where the comp is.
                          >
                          > Cheers,
                          > Robert~
                          >
                          > --
                          > Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                          > ATL: 678-438-6955
                          > garealtours.com
                          >
                        • Scott Highton
                          Hi all, Pricing our services effectively is one of the more difficult aspects of being in business as a photographer. In the end, you re going to have to make
                          Message 12 of 23 , May 16, 2008
                            Hi all,

                            Pricing our services effectively is one of the more difficult aspects
                            of being in business as a photographer. In the end, you're going to
                            have to make these decisions for yourself, based upon your own
                            specific markets and your specific costs of doing business.

                            Most photographers however -- particularly those starting out,
                            significantly underestimate how much it costs to be in business and
                            therefore, significantly undercharge for their services. It's not
                            usually effective to base your fees on what other photographers
                            charge, because their business costs, and their markets are likely to
                            be markedly different from yours. Basing your fees on what your
                            clients say they want to pay you is pure folly. Nobody can remain in
                            ANY business very long if they let their clients dictate how much
                            they charge, rather than charging fair rates based on their own costs
                            of doing business.


                            There is lots of free information about pricing VR services at the
                            Virtual Reality Photography web site: http://www.vrphotography.com

                            Specifically, there is a free Photo Business Calculator that you can
                            download to help determine your own costs of doing business and your
                            own minimum rates at:
                            http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/onlinetools/
                            onlinetools.html#photofeescalcanchor

                            There are also a number of Business Q&As for VR photographers at:
                            http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/askexperts/askexperts.html

                            Regards,





                            Scott Highton
                            Author, Virtual Reality Photography
                            Web: http://www.vrphotography.com




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • eli20sf
                            Robert, Hi there. Thanks for the reply. I m on the quest brother. Seriously, I m just having a hard time. Especially after I see how much work it takes. I
                            Message 13 of 23 , May 16, 2008
                              Robert,

                              Hi there. Thanks for the reply. I'm on the quest brother.
                              Seriously, I'm just having a hard time. Especially after I see how
                              much work it takes. I just finished these tours from a shoot last
                              week:

                              http://www.bayareavr.com/kapu/lanai
                              http://www.bayareavr.com/tom/waaula/livingroom
                              http://www.bayareavr.com/private_home/living_room

                              and let me share my pricing (scenerio). So for kapu, I was able to
                              get 400 (which is the highest price I've gotten for a 5 tour shot -
                              and actually I feel like it's much closer to what I want here in the
                              states).

                              I went to maui last week to shoot some propertys for a good friend of
                              mine who's a property manager. The "private home" was one of many
                              (still rendering) ... and since it's a good friend and a trade for
                              later, when I want to go out with the family - it's all good in
                              itself.

                              Since I was going to Maui, I used craigslist to email a few realtors
                              in the same city as my buddy - with an informal "Ill be there, here's
                              my site if your interested". And one realtor took me up. I ended up
                              shooting 7 houses averaging 5 shoots per house ... and only charged
                              200 cause I felt like he was getting alot of work, and it was set up
                              informally. So I set my pricing, but now that I'm back on
                              the "mainland" and Im processing all this - I'm just realizing how
                              much fricken work I put into the tours - and I just can't/haven't
                              taken short cuts. I shoot raw, then tiff sphere, tiff cube (for
                              nadir) and finally compress in the qtvr stage. I'm unfortunately
                              still using stitcher (but bought ptgui this week ... just need the
                              time to learn it).

                              Anyhow ... charged the realtor 200 per tour. I figured it'd be a
                              good price since he had 7 properties he wanted shot. Now I'm
                              somewhat regretting the price cause I'm up to my ears in tours. But
                              I'm still paying my dues ... at an early stage of my company, and
                              still very much in a learning stage (which will never stop - I know :)

                              So the point of this rambling? Just to share. I'm just looking for
                              strategies to make sure I make money, but don't dilute the vr world
                              with cheap high res panos. I don't offer much with my tours
                              (navigation/buttons/etc) but learning more xml for FPP is my next
                              step (with PTGUI as my first priority).

                              Robert I like your site. Do you use picassa photos/plug in's for
                              your blog/site? Great work.

                              And too everyone else - let's keep this subject going. Sharing price
                              sheets, sharing experiences, and learning from each other.

                              And if anyone from this forum is close to, or ever traveling to, San
                              Francisco ... give me a heads up so I can buy a lunch and drinks.

                              Take care all,

                              Eli Poblitz
                              bayareavr.com
                              bayareavr.net
                            • Georgia Real Tours
                              ... They are beautiful, good job! ... Great business move! ... As you discovered, you severely undercut yourself and, unwittingly, other Hawaiian tour
                              Message 14 of 23 , May 17, 2008
                                On 5/16/08, eli20sf <epoblitz@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Robert,
                                >
                                > Hi there. Thanks for the reply. I'm on the quest brother.
                                > Seriously, I'm just having a hard time. Especially after I see how
                                > much work it takes. I just finished these tours from a shoot last
                                > week:
                                >
                                > http://www.bayareavr.com/kapu/lanai
                                > http://www.bayareavr.com/tom/waaula/livingroom
                                > http://www.bayareavr.com/private_home/living_room

                                They are beautiful, good job!


                                > and let me share my pricing (scenerio). So for kapu, I was able to
                                > get 400 (which is the highest price I've gotten for a 5 tour shot -
                                > and actually I feel like it's much closer to what I want here in the
                                > states).


                                > Since I was going to Maui, I used craigslist to email a few realtors
                                > in the same city as my buddy - with an informal "Ill be there, here's
                                > my site if your interested". And one realtor took me up.

                                Great business move!


                                > I ended up
                                > shooting 7 houses averaging 5 shoots per house ... and only charged
                                > 200 cause I felt like he was getting alot of work, and it was set up
                                > informally.

                                ...snip...

                                > Anyhow ... charged the realtor 200 per tour. I figured it'd be a
                                > good price since he had 7 properties he wanted shot. Now I'm
                                > somewhat regretting the price cause I'm up to my ears in tours.

                                As you discovered, you severely undercut yourself and, unwittingly,
                                other Hawaiian tour providers who will forever more hear from that
                                realtor that he/she gets VTs for $200 a pop. As you found, he/she got
                                a steal from you. (Okay, you *would* have to bring up perhaps the
                                only place even more expensive than the Bay Area...)


                                My advice, and by the way Scott is absolutely right so re-read his
                                post, is to take a hard look at your expenses and how much time it
                                takes you to do your work from start to finish. Multiply your time by
                                5 and your expenses by 3. That is, imagine you only get to work 8
                                hours per week for which you are getting paid and the rest of the time
                                is what you are doing to sustain and promote your business. Take your
                                3x expenses and find out how much per hour that is. Then figure out
                                how much time it takes per tour and multiply that by the hourly rate
                                you calculated.

                                So, for example, your mortgage/rent plus utilities is $2,000 per
                                month, your software licensing and business licensing, vehicle costs,
                                insurance, computer costs, your photography equipment costs (don't
                                forget that you have depreciation and wear & tear on vehicles,
                                computers, and photography equipment!), your tax liabilities, and so
                                forth, all come up to an additional $3,000 per month, your total you
                                need to survive each month is $5,000. Triple that is $15,000 (your
                                goal). If you work 32 hours to get that $15,000 and it takes you two
                                hours per tour, you would need 16 tours at $937.50 each to get there.
                                However, just to break even it would take $312.50 per tour.

                                But you aren't doing this as a non-profit. Retail typically marks up
                                a MINIMUM of 100% for their pricing on average, and more if they can,
                                to give you a comparison of markup. Further, you don't want to
                                undercut your competition either; you probably won't if you use the
                                formula I laid out. Better yet, use Scott's calculator.

                                My prices are based on my requirements and my market. However, I also
                                have streamlined my process so it takes about 10 to 15 minutes per
                                360°, and just a couple of minutes for non-360° items. Also keep in
                                mind in the less-expensive tours I'm not offering HDR or spherical
                                tours which cuts out a lot of the pain-staking work. (FYI, my
                                mortgage is just over $500 and I work from a home office, just to give
                                you an idea to compare.)


                                > Robert I like your site. Do you use picassa photos/plug in's for
                                > your blog/site? Great work.

                                Thank you. :c)

                                No. I did use Picasa to create a 'photostack' of Polaroids a few
                                times, and will continue to use it. I've used Picasa for a few other
                                special effects, but really I don't use Picasa for anything.

                                The site uses Joomla! and some flash (which is just there for eye
                                candy). The template is from JoomlaShack. I also use SmugMug Pro
                                http://www.smugmug.com/?referrer=N2DVOMFMpBc1U which is AJAX-based and
                                SlideShowPro http://www.slideshopro.net/ which is Flash-based and runs
                                on my own server. However, neither of these are in use where I can
                                demonstrate them. I'm working on it...

                                FYI, the hosting costs me about $8 per month, the SlideShowPro was $86
                                for all the bells and whistles, the template was $40, and SmugMug is
                                $149/year, or just over $12/mo.



                                > And too everyone else - let's keep this subject going. Sharing price
                                > sheets, sharing experiences, and learning from each other.
                                >
                                > And if anyone from this forum is close to, or ever traveling to, San
                                > Francisco ... give me a heads up so I can buy a lunch and drinks.

                                I'll take you up on it one day. ;c)

                                Best Wishes,
                                Robert~

                                P.S., I'll send you my rate sheets separately.

                                --
                                Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                                ATL: 678-438-6955
                                garealtours.com
                              • eli20sf
                                Thanks for the well thought out reply. Yeah ... I m kicking my self for the low pricing cause I m rendering like hell - but I m still catching my balance in
                                Message 15 of 23 , May 17, 2008
                                  Thanks for the well thought out reply. Yeah ... I'm kicking my self
                                  for the low pricing cause I'm rendering like hell - but I'm still
                                  catching my balance in this business.

                                  I'm going to sit down tonight and use Scott's calculator and your
                                  advice ... and make some determinations.

                                  Thanks for the price sheet, that will help as well.

                                  I appreciate everyone's help on this.

                                  Eli Poblitz
                                  bayareavr.com
                                  bayareavr.net
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