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Re: How much do you charge for a VR??

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  • Nelson Mendes
    This is a helpful topic, and it s nice to know what are the prices charged for a VR all over the world (I m in Portugal). Now, my question is, what do you
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 2, 2008
      This is a helpful topic, and it's nice to know what are the prices
      charged for a VR all over the world (I'm in Portugal).

      Now, my question is, what do you consider "a VR"? Is it the group of
      photos taken (say, 6+2 photos) stitched to a panorama?
      Or do you generate the QTVR's or another kind of display method for
      VR? If so, do you provide alternative size movies? (Like one low
      resolution and one full res).
      I think all these factors contribute to the final price and it's nice
      to know what "packages" are you providing.

      Nelson Mendes

      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "jeanpierrelavoie" <j_plavoie@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > That's a good question I keep asking myself since I started to produce
      > VR and have customers. It is not an easy question depending on where
      > you live and what is the market you shoot for. Here in Canada, I would
      > say from $250 to $500 canadian dollars. Is it too low, is it too
      > high? What do you think about it?
      >
      > Any thoughts are welcome!
      >
    • jeanpierrelavoie
      I consider a VR, in my case, to be a Flash or Quick Time movie for internet resolution (around 6000 x 3000 pixels equirectangular projection), not high
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 2, 2008
        I consider a VR, in my case, to be a Flash or Quick Time movie for
        internet resolution (around 6000 x 3000 pixels equirectangular
        projection), not high resolution. I supply a small thumbnail image
        for the VR so that the customer integrates it on his own in his
        website.



        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson Mendes" <nmendes@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > This is a helpful topic, and it's nice to know what are the prices
        > charged for a VR all over the world (I'm in Portugal).
        >
        > Now, my question is, what do you consider "a VR"? Is it the group of
        > photos taken (say, 6+2 photos) stitched to a panorama?
        > Or do you generate the QTVR's or another kind of display method for
        > VR? If so, do you provide alternative size movies? (Like one low
        > resolution and one full res).
        > I think all these factors contribute to the final price and it's
        nice
        > to know what "packages" are you providing.
        >
        > Nelson Mendes
        >
        > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "jeanpierrelavoie" <j_plavoie@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > That's a good question I keep asking myself since I started to
        produce
        > > VR and have customers. It is not an easy question depending on
        where
        > > you live and what is the market you shoot for. Here in Canada, I
        would
        > > say from $250 to $500 canadian dollars. Is it too low, is it too
        > > high? What do you think about it?
        > >
        > > Any thoughts are welcome!
        > >
        >
      • ebig_foto
        I have a friend who specializes in clientele that need 360 images on an ongoing basis - RE rentals, not sales. He charges a VERY low rate which includes web
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 3, 2008
          I have a friend who specializes in clientele that need 360 images on an
          ongoing basis - RE rentals, not sales.

          He charges a VERY low rate which includes web pages, authoring, and hosting.
          It is seen as too good a deal to pass up...and he keeps busy.

          The initial minimal fee becomes a subscription which goes on forever, as
          long as the site is "hot." Until it's not.

          Another way of saying - there are a lot of ways of doing business.

          Ed

          --
          View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-much-do-you-charge-for-a-VR---tp15780068p15821304.html
          Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
        • Yuval Levy
          ... it depends on the quality of the work provided, its use and how unique it is. rule number one of marketing is that the selling price of good is not related
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 4, 2008
            jeanpierrelavoie wrote:
            > Here in Canada, I would say from $250 to $500 canadian dollars.

            it depends on the quality of the work provided, its use and how unique
            it is. rule number one of marketing is that the selling price of good is
            not related to production costs. It only has to be higher.

            To be higher it is important to be aware of production costs, which
            include amortization and dead time.

            Some cost factors are fixed and known in advance, others not. Some are
            predictable, others not. And of course it depends on the quality of the
            delivery.

            As an example, mileage is predictable but variable. Before you even
            start shooting, you spend time and money to get on location. If shoots
            can be grouped in a single time and location, you can spread these costs
            over multiple VR. Else, I charge for mileage. My charge here in Quebec
            was 0.55$/Km for the past three years.

            If you need to do a lot of retouching at nadir and seam, the time spent
            in Photoshop is not always predictable. An hourly rate for retouching on
            top of the price for shooting and basic stitching may be appropriate.

            Your average price look reasonable to me. Unfortunately it will preclude
            some markets to you, due to competition by "drive-by shooters". You
            don't want to be in those markets anyway, where the going price is
            $20/pano but the quality is nowhere near the high quality you produce.

            Yuv
          • panotonic01
            Hi all, I think $ 250 is a good starting point. Underneath, possibly for real estate agents, for 3 to 6 months using, the time of the sale process. After
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 4, 2008
              Hi all,

              I think $ 250 is a good starting point. Underneath, possibly for real
              estate agents, for 3 to 6 months using, the time of the sale process.

              After everything is expandable depending on the complexity of
              shooting.So no limit for the maximum. I will be glad to hear someone
              sell a Vr for $5000.

              But I would like for mines nexts submissions, add a cost to use the
              VR for a period of time such as:
              $ 200 additional on production costs for 3 years of use , $ 300 for 5
              years, etc., but never a lifetime, VRs still property of the
              photographer.
              Fee is expandable if the compagny is international or local.

              It s the rule that applies photographers authors like CAPIC (THE
              CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF PHOTOGRAPHERS AND ILLUSTRATORS IN
              COMMUNICATIONS).

              It is in my opinion the way to do so that our work is a reward its
              fair value.
              I hope to encourage more of a demarche in this and especially Jean
              Pierre and Yuval, because we are in the same area. For this benefit
              to all if we go in this direction billing and enhance our rights.

              Any reactions of people who already use this system?

              I hope to be understand with my little english and especially by my
              customers coming.

              Yannis
            • Keith Martin
              ... Very good points, Yuval. Just as an additional comment here, it is worth making sure the client doesn t see your retouching charges as paying for time
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 4, 2008
                Sometime around 4/3/08 (at 07:19 -0500) Yuval Levy said:

                >If you need to do a lot of retouching at nadir and seam, the time spent
                >in Photoshop is not always predictable. An hourly rate for retouching on
                >top of the price for shooting and basic stitching may be appropriate.

                Very good points, Yuval.

                Just as an additional comment here, it is worth making sure the
                client doesn't see your retouching charges as paying for 'time spent
                correcting your mistakes'. If high quality is desired, most panos
                will need at least a small amount of retouching work.

                k
              • Chris Thomas
                Hi Yannis. I m a member of CAPIC and I don t sell my copyright on Panos to clients either. As you suggested.. I license the usage. The rate that I m
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 4, 2008
                  Hi Yannis.

                  I'm a member of CAPIC and I don't sell my copyright on Panos to clients
                  either.

                  As you suggested.. I license the usage. The rate that I'm implimenting in
                  Calgary and Vancouver is:

                  *A "Capture" fee of $600.00.
                  *Panos shot on the day of the "Capture" are licensed for $500.00/ year.
                  *They can license 1 ........ several or none, if they like..
                  Nobody has ever not licensed at least 1!

                  I don't "host" the panos.... I turn over a web ready folder with .swf and
                  xml files.
                  I use FPP for this.

                  Cheers
                  chris


                  Chris Thomas
                  Photographer
                  cell... 403-615-1212
                  In North America
                  call... 1-800-870-5110
                  http://www.christhomas.com

                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of panotonic01
                  Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 6:41 AM
                  To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: How much do you charge for a VR??

                  Hi all,

                  I think $ 250 is a good starting point. Underneath, possibly for real
                  estate agents, for 3 to 6 months using, the time of the sale process.

                  After everything is expandable depending on the complexity of
                  shooting.So no limit for the maximum. I will be glad to hear someone
                  sell a Vr for $5000.

                  But I would like for mines nexts submissions, add a cost to use the
                  VR for a period of time such as:
                  $ 200 additional on production costs for 3 years of use , $ 300 for 5
                  years, etc., but never a lifetime, VRs still property of the
                  photographer.
                  Fee is expandable if the compagny is international or local.

                  It s the rule that applies photographers authors like CAPIC (THE
                  CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF PHOTOGRAPHERS AND ILLUSTRATORS IN
                  COMMUNICATIONS).

                  It is in my opinion the way to do so that our work is a reward its
                  fair value.
                  I hope to encourage more of a demarche in this and especially Jean
                  Pierre and Yuval, because we are in the same area. For this benefit
                  to all if we go in this direction billing and enhance our rights.

                  Any reactions of people who already use this system?

                  I hope to be understand with my little english and especially by my
                  customers coming.

                  Yannis
                  [Chris Thomas] snip
                  .
                • panotonic01
                  Thanks Chris, My price list is very flexible with customer, but I guess no high enough, rarely people deal the price with me. Do I have the right price or a
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 5, 2008
                    Thanks Chris,

                    My price list is very flexible with customer, but I guess no high
                    enough, rarely people deal the price with me.
                    Do I have the right price or a too good price?
                    Anyway, I m a youg VR photographer, I improve my shooting and
                    processing every day (in parallel with my price list..)

                    An advice? Charge a bit higher than you thought (We are too modest)

                    ;­-) Yannis




                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Chris Thomas <chris@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Yannis.
                    >
                    > I'm a member of CAPIC and I don't sell my copyright on Panos to
                    clients
                    > either.
                    >
                    > As you suggested.. I license the usage. The rate that I'm
                    implimenting in
                    > Calgary and Vancouver is:
                    >
                    > *A "Capture" fee of $600.00.
                    > *Panos shot on the day of the "Capture" are licensed for $500.00/
                    year.
                    > *They can license 1 ........ several or none, if they like..
                    > Nobody has ever not licensed at least 1!
                    >
                    > I don't "host" the panos.... I turn over a web ready folder
                    with .swf and
                    > xml files.
                    > I use FPP for this.
                    >
                    > Cheers
                    > chris
                    >
                    >
                    > Chris Thomas
                    > Photographer
                    > cell... 403-615-1212
                    > In North America
                    > call... 1-800-870-5110
                    > http://www.christhomas.com
                    >
                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                    > Behalf Of panotonic01
                    > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 6:41 AM
                    > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: How much do you charge for a VR??
                    >
                    > Hi all,
                    >
                    > I think $ 250 is a good starting point. Underneath, possibly for
                    real
                    > estate agents, for 3 to 6 months using, the time of the sale
                    process.
                    >
                    > After everything is expandable depending on the complexity of
                    > shooting.So no limit for the maximum. I will be glad to hear someone
                    > sell a Vr for $5000.
                    >
                    > But I would like for mines nexts submissions, add a cost to use the
                    > VR for a period of time such as:
                    > $ 200 additional on production costs for 3 years of use , $ 300 for
                    5
                    > years, etc., but never a lifetime, VRs still property of the
                    > photographer.
                    > Fee is expandable if the compagny is international or local.
                    >
                    > It s the rule that applies photographers authors like CAPIC (THE
                    > CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF PHOTOGRAPHERS AND ILLUSTRATORS IN
                    > COMMUNICATIONS).
                    >
                    > It is in my opinion the way to do so that our work is a reward its
                    > fair value.
                    > I hope to encourage more of a demarche in this and especially Jean
                    > Pierre and Yuval, because we are in the same area. For this benefit
                    > to all if we go in this direction billing and enhance our rights.
                    >
                    > Any reactions of people who already use this system?
                    >
                    > I hope to be understand with my little english and especially by my
                    > customers coming.
                    >
                    > Yannis
                    > [Chris Thomas] snip
                    > .
                    >
                  • Chris Thomas
                    Best Advise I can give is Keep your copyright.. Or charge them a fortune! Best of luck chris Chris Thomas Photographer cell... 403-615-1212 In North America
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 5, 2008
                      Best Advise I can give is

                      Keep your copyright.. Or charge them a fortune!



                      Best of luck

                      chris



                      Chris Thomas

                      Photographer

                      cell... 403-615-1212

                      In North America

                      call... 1-800-870-5110

                      <http://www.christhomas.com/> http://www.christhomas.com



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                      Behalf Of panotonic01
                      Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 11:38 AM
                      To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: How much do you charge for a VR??



                      Thanks Chris,

                      My price list is very flexible with customer, but I guess no high
                      enough, rarely people deal the price with me.
                      Do I have the right price or a too good price?
                      Anyway, I m a youg VR photographer, I improve my shooting and
                      processing every day (in parallel with my price list..)

                      An advice? Charge a bit higher than you thought (We are too modest)

                      ;--) Yannis

                      --- In PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
                      Chris Thomas <chris@...> wrote:
                      [Chris Thomas] snip




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • eli20sf
                      Hi Everyone, I m re-lighting this fire. So I ve taken off pricing from my website because I felt like I was too high for realtors, and too low for
                      Message 10 of 23 , May 14, 2008
                        Hi Everyone,

                        I'm re-lighting this fire. So I've taken off pricing from my
                        website because I felt like I was too high for realtors, and too low
                        for corporate/commercial.

                        I'm creating 6880x3440 pano's w/ my d200/10.5/360precision/realviz
                        (just got PTGUI this week, so I'll be moving over asap) ... and I'm
                        just bouncing around with pricing (too afraid to charge to much, but
                        realizing I do quality work,and it take TIME ... AND I want to
                        charge as much as similar vr photographers doing the same caliber
                        work).

                        I re-read the thread, and it looks like licsensing our work could
                        work out. I'm curious to hear more about how each of you figure
                        your price structure out ... and what, on average, most of us are
                        charing for comparable work. And another question is ... how do you
                        break your pricing to get some of the realty market ... cause
                        realtors are cheap.

                        Thanks again, I hope this isn't a boring subject to most of you.

                        Eli Poblitz
                        http://www.bayareavr.com
                      • Georgia Real Tours
                        ... I m thinking for the generic realtor you are looking at using Mercedes-class equipment in a Pinto-class environment. Okay, maybe Taurus-class environment.
                        Message 11 of 23 , May 14, 2008
                          On 5/14/08, eli20sf <epoblitz@...> wrote:

                          > I'm creating 6880x3440 pano's w/ my d200/10.5/360precision/realviz
                          > (just got PTGUI this week, so I'll be moving over asap) ... and I'm
                          > just bouncing around with pricing (too afraid to charge to much, but
                          > realizing I do quality work,and it take TIME ... AND I want to
                          > charge as much as similar vr photographers doing the same caliber
                          > work).

                          I'm thinking for the generic realtor you are looking at using
                          Mercedes-class equipment in a Pinto-class environment. Okay, maybe
                          Taurus-class environment. It seems to me your equipment is right for
                          the commercial/corporate stuff, and if you prefer to do the quality
                          work you're set; I'd concentrate on them as often as possible.

                          OTOH, real estate is more likely to pay for your daily life more
                          quickly, in my opinion. It looks like you are going to have to take
                          more shots at higher resolution than you really want; fortunately with
                          your precision head you should be able to take a massive chunk out of
                          the processing since the stitching ought to be almost trivial for you.

                          Ironically, I just sat down this evening to create a "package" menu
                          for my prospective clients; as it turns out most people are completely
                          baffled by a an 8pt font spreadsheet with bizarre words intermingling
                          with rows and columns of numbers. I'll spring that on them when they
                          ask, but for now I'm just going to give them the 1-page menu which
                          covers everything from an introductory offer to an open-ended
                          high-quality package.

                          Out in Middle Georgia, unlike the Bay Area, housing prices are
                          affordable. Which means that commissions are much lower, as is the
                          cost of living (if you don't count fuel and food these days). That
                          means my pricing is going to be a lot lower than yours needs to be
                          (and you'll find I'm in the vast majority when it comes to
                          cost-of-living vs. the Bay Area). An example is that $75,000 gets you
                          a decent 4-bed 2-bath home that is not necessarily within smelling
                          distance of your neighbor, and I've seen TLC vacant homes for $30K.

                          That said, I'll be happy to shoot you a copy of what I've done
                          off-list if you want. Bear in mind, too, that it is a first draft and
                          may change; it is merely a reflection on what I feel I can offer for a
                          fair price and hoping those fall within what realtors consider
                          reasonable for the price. Feel free to pilfer whatever may help you
                          (if that wasn't already implied.) ;c)


                          > and what, on average, most of us are
                          > charing for comparable work.

                          Pssst! Just a reminder.... the Bay Area isn't comparable to most of
                          the rest of the world. ;c) Look at average wages for the areas you
                          compare as well as average home prices to get a better feel for the
                          "exchange rate" between where you are and where the comp is.

                          Cheers,
                          Robert~

                          --
                          Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                          ATL: 678-438-6955
                          garealtours.com
                        • Daley
                          Hi Robert, do you mind send a copy off-list to my email as well, more than grateful to have it. As I mentioned on another thread, I having real hard time to
                          Message 12 of 23 , May 16, 2008
                            Hi Robert, do you mind send a copy off-list to my email as well,
                            more than grateful to have it. As I mentioned on another thread, I
                            having real hard time to figure out what is the right structure to
                            price because from country where I come from, there isn't a market
                            for this thing yet. I am alone here and crying for help! So forum
                            like this one and ppl like you can really do great help. Thanks
                            again.


                            Daley.
                            MAlaysia
                            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Georgia Real Tours"
                            <garealtours@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > On 5/14/08, eli20sf <epoblitz@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > > I'm creating 6880x3440 pano's w/ my
                            d200/10.5/360precision/realviz
                            > > (just got PTGUI this week, so I'll be moving over asap) ... and
                            I'm
                            > > just bouncing around with pricing (too afraid to charge to
                            much, but
                            > > realizing I do quality work,and it take TIME ... AND I want to
                            > > charge as much as similar vr photographers doing the same
                            caliber
                            > > work).
                            >
                            > I'm thinking for the generic realtor you are looking at using
                            > Mercedes-class equipment in a Pinto-class environment. Okay, maybe
                            > Taurus-class environment. It seems to me your equipment is right
                            for
                            > the commercial/corporate stuff, and if you prefer to do the quality
                            > work you're set; I'd concentrate on them as often as possible.
                            >
                            > OTOH, real estate is more likely to pay for your daily life more
                            > quickly, in my opinion. It looks like you are going to have to
                            take
                            > more shots at higher resolution than you really want; fortunately
                            with
                            > your precision head you should be able to take a massive chunk out
                            of
                            > the processing since the stitching ought to be almost trivial for
                            you.
                            >
                            > Ironically, I just sat down this evening to create a "package" menu
                            > for my prospective clients; as it turns out most people are
                            completely
                            > baffled by a an 8pt font spreadsheet with bizarre words
                            intermingling
                            > with rows and columns of numbers. I'll spring that on them when
                            they
                            > ask, but for now I'm just going to give them the 1-page menu which
                            > covers everything from an introductory offer to an open-ended
                            > high-quality package.
                            >
                            > Out in Middle Georgia, unlike the Bay Area, housing prices are
                            > affordable. Which means that commissions are much lower, as is the
                            > cost of living (if you don't count fuel and food these days). That
                            > means my pricing is going to be a lot lower than yours needs to be
                            > (and you'll find I'm in the vast majority when it comes to
                            > cost-of-living vs. the Bay Area). An example is that $75,000 gets
                            you
                            > a decent 4-bed 2-bath home that is not necessarily within smelling
                            > distance of your neighbor, and I've seen TLC vacant homes for $30K.
                            >
                            > That said, I'll be happy to shoot you a copy of what I've done
                            > off-list if you want. Bear in mind, too, that it is a first draft
                            and
                            > may change; it is merely a reflection on what I feel I can offer
                            for a
                            > fair price and hoping those fall within what realtors consider
                            > reasonable for the price. Feel free to pilfer whatever may help
                            you
                            > (if that wasn't already implied.) ;c)
                            >
                            >
                            > > and what, on average, most of us are
                            > > charing for comparable work.
                            >
                            > Pssst! Just a reminder.... the Bay Area isn't comparable to most
                            of
                            > the rest of the world. ;c) Look at average wages for the areas
                            you
                            > compare as well as average home prices to get a better feel for the
                            > "exchange rate" between where you are and where the comp is.
                            >
                            > Cheers,
                            > Robert~
                            >
                            > --
                            > Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                            > ATL: 678-438-6955
                            > garealtours.com
                            >
                          • Scott Highton
                            Hi all, Pricing our services effectively is one of the more difficult aspects of being in business as a photographer. In the end, you re going to have to make
                            Message 13 of 23 , May 16, 2008
                              Hi all,

                              Pricing our services effectively is one of the more difficult aspects
                              of being in business as a photographer. In the end, you're going to
                              have to make these decisions for yourself, based upon your own
                              specific markets and your specific costs of doing business.

                              Most photographers however -- particularly those starting out,
                              significantly underestimate how much it costs to be in business and
                              therefore, significantly undercharge for their services. It's not
                              usually effective to base your fees on what other photographers
                              charge, because their business costs, and their markets are likely to
                              be markedly different from yours. Basing your fees on what your
                              clients say they want to pay you is pure folly. Nobody can remain in
                              ANY business very long if they let their clients dictate how much
                              they charge, rather than charging fair rates based on their own costs
                              of doing business.


                              There is lots of free information about pricing VR services at the
                              Virtual Reality Photography web site: http://www.vrphotography.com

                              Specifically, there is a free Photo Business Calculator that you can
                              download to help determine your own costs of doing business and your
                              own minimum rates at:
                              http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/onlinetools/
                              onlinetools.html#photofeescalcanchor

                              There are also a number of Business Q&As for VR photographers at:
                              http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/askexperts/askexperts.html

                              Regards,





                              Scott Highton
                              Author, Virtual Reality Photography
                              Web: http://www.vrphotography.com




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • eli20sf
                              Robert, Hi there. Thanks for the reply. I m on the quest brother. Seriously, I m just having a hard time. Especially after I see how much work it takes. I
                              Message 14 of 23 , May 16, 2008
                                Robert,

                                Hi there. Thanks for the reply. I'm on the quest brother.
                                Seriously, I'm just having a hard time. Especially after I see how
                                much work it takes. I just finished these tours from a shoot last
                                week:

                                http://www.bayareavr.com/kapu/lanai
                                http://www.bayareavr.com/tom/waaula/livingroom
                                http://www.bayareavr.com/private_home/living_room

                                and let me share my pricing (scenerio). So for kapu, I was able to
                                get 400 (which is the highest price I've gotten for a 5 tour shot -
                                and actually I feel like it's much closer to what I want here in the
                                states).

                                I went to maui last week to shoot some propertys for a good friend of
                                mine who's a property manager. The "private home" was one of many
                                (still rendering) ... and since it's a good friend and a trade for
                                later, when I want to go out with the family - it's all good in
                                itself.

                                Since I was going to Maui, I used craigslist to email a few realtors
                                in the same city as my buddy - with an informal "Ill be there, here's
                                my site if your interested". And one realtor took me up. I ended up
                                shooting 7 houses averaging 5 shoots per house ... and only charged
                                200 cause I felt like he was getting alot of work, and it was set up
                                informally. So I set my pricing, but now that I'm back on
                                the "mainland" and Im processing all this - I'm just realizing how
                                much fricken work I put into the tours - and I just can't/haven't
                                taken short cuts. I shoot raw, then tiff sphere, tiff cube (for
                                nadir) and finally compress in the qtvr stage. I'm unfortunately
                                still using stitcher (but bought ptgui this week ... just need the
                                time to learn it).

                                Anyhow ... charged the realtor 200 per tour. I figured it'd be a
                                good price since he had 7 properties he wanted shot. Now I'm
                                somewhat regretting the price cause I'm up to my ears in tours. But
                                I'm still paying my dues ... at an early stage of my company, and
                                still very much in a learning stage (which will never stop - I know :)

                                So the point of this rambling? Just to share. I'm just looking for
                                strategies to make sure I make money, but don't dilute the vr world
                                with cheap high res panos. I don't offer much with my tours
                                (navigation/buttons/etc) but learning more xml for FPP is my next
                                step (with PTGUI as my first priority).

                                Robert I like your site. Do you use picassa photos/plug in's for
                                your blog/site? Great work.

                                And too everyone else - let's keep this subject going. Sharing price
                                sheets, sharing experiences, and learning from each other.

                                And if anyone from this forum is close to, or ever traveling to, San
                                Francisco ... give me a heads up so I can buy a lunch and drinks.

                                Take care all,

                                Eli Poblitz
                                bayareavr.com
                                bayareavr.net
                              • Georgia Real Tours
                                ... They are beautiful, good job! ... Great business move! ... As you discovered, you severely undercut yourself and, unwittingly, other Hawaiian tour
                                Message 15 of 23 , May 17, 2008
                                  On 5/16/08, eli20sf <epoblitz@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Robert,
                                  >
                                  > Hi there. Thanks for the reply. I'm on the quest brother.
                                  > Seriously, I'm just having a hard time. Especially after I see how
                                  > much work it takes. I just finished these tours from a shoot last
                                  > week:
                                  >
                                  > http://www.bayareavr.com/kapu/lanai
                                  > http://www.bayareavr.com/tom/waaula/livingroom
                                  > http://www.bayareavr.com/private_home/living_room

                                  They are beautiful, good job!


                                  > and let me share my pricing (scenerio). So for kapu, I was able to
                                  > get 400 (which is the highest price I've gotten for a 5 tour shot -
                                  > and actually I feel like it's much closer to what I want here in the
                                  > states).


                                  > Since I was going to Maui, I used craigslist to email a few realtors
                                  > in the same city as my buddy - with an informal "Ill be there, here's
                                  > my site if your interested". And one realtor took me up.

                                  Great business move!


                                  > I ended up
                                  > shooting 7 houses averaging 5 shoots per house ... and only charged
                                  > 200 cause I felt like he was getting alot of work, and it was set up
                                  > informally.

                                  ...snip...

                                  > Anyhow ... charged the realtor 200 per tour. I figured it'd be a
                                  > good price since he had 7 properties he wanted shot. Now I'm
                                  > somewhat regretting the price cause I'm up to my ears in tours.

                                  As you discovered, you severely undercut yourself and, unwittingly,
                                  other Hawaiian tour providers who will forever more hear from that
                                  realtor that he/she gets VTs for $200 a pop. As you found, he/she got
                                  a steal from you. (Okay, you *would* have to bring up perhaps the
                                  only place even more expensive than the Bay Area...)


                                  My advice, and by the way Scott is absolutely right so re-read his
                                  post, is to take a hard look at your expenses and how much time it
                                  takes you to do your work from start to finish. Multiply your time by
                                  5 and your expenses by 3. That is, imagine you only get to work 8
                                  hours per week for which you are getting paid and the rest of the time
                                  is what you are doing to sustain and promote your business. Take your
                                  3x expenses and find out how much per hour that is. Then figure out
                                  how much time it takes per tour and multiply that by the hourly rate
                                  you calculated.

                                  So, for example, your mortgage/rent plus utilities is $2,000 per
                                  month, your software licensing and business licensing, vehicle costs,
                                  insurance, computer costs, your photography equipment costs (don't
                                  forget that you have depreciation and wear & tear on vehicles,
                                  computers, and photography equipment!), your tax liabilities, and so
                                  forth, all come up to an additional $3,000 per month, your total you
                                  need to survive each month is $5,000. Triple that is $15,000 (your
                                  goal). If you work 32 hours to get that $15,000 and it takes you two
                                  hours per tour, you would need 16 tours at $937.50 each to get there.
                                  However, just to break even it would take $312.50 per tour.

                                  But you aren't doing this as a non-profit. Retail typically marks up
                                  a MINIMUM of 100% for their pricing on average, and more if they can,
                                  to give you a comparison of markup. Further, you don't want to
                                  undercut your competition either; you probably won't if you use the
                                  formula I laid out. Better yet, use Scott's calculator.

                                  My prices are based on my requirements and my market. However, I also
                                  have streamlined my process so it takes about 10 to 15 minutes per
                                  360°, and just a couple of minutes for non-360° items. Also keep in
                                  mind in the less-expensive tours I'm not offering HDR or spherical
                                  tours which cuts out a lot of the pain-staking work. (FYI, my
                                  mortgage is just over $500 and I work from a home office, just to give
                                  you an idea to compare.)


                                  > Robert I like your site. Do you use picassa photos/plug in's for
                                  > your blog/site? Great work.

                                  Thank you. :c)

                                  No. I did use Picasa to create a 'photostack' of Polaroids a few
                                  times, and will continue to use it. I've used Picasa for a few other
                                  special effects, but really I don't use Picasa for anything.

                                  The site uses Joomla! and some flash (which is just there for eye
                                  candy). The template is from JoomlaShack. I also use SmugMug Pro
                                  http://www.smugmug.com/?referrer=N2DVOMFMpBc1U which is AJAX-based and
                                  SlideShowPro http://www.slideshopro.net/ which is Flash-based and runs
                                  on my own server. However, neither of these are in use where I can
                                  demonstrate them. I'm working on it...

                                  FYI, the hosting costs me about $8 per month, the SlideShowPro was $86
                                  for all the bells and whistles, the template was $40, and SmugMug is
                                  $149/year, or just over $12/mo.



                                  > And too everyone else - let's keep this subject going. Sharing price
                                  > sheets, sharing experiences, and learning from each other.
                                  >
                                  > And if anyone from this forum is close to, or ever traveling to, San
                                  > Francisco ... give me a heads up so I can buy a lunch and drinks.

                                  I'll take you up on it one day. ;c)

                                  Best Wishes,
                                  Robert~

                                  P.S., I'll send you my rate sheets separately.

                                  --
                                  Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                                  ATL: 678-438-6955
                                  garealtours.com
                                • eli20sf
                                  Thanks for the well thought out reply. Yeah ... I m kicking my self for the low pricing cause I m rendering like hell - but I m still catching my balance in
                                  Message 16 of 23 , May 17, 2008
                                    Thanks for the well thought out reply. Yeah ... I'm kicking my self
                                    for the low pricing cause I'm rendering like hell - but I'm still
                                    catching my balance in this business.

                                    I'm going to sit down tonight and use Scott's calculator and your
                                    advice ... and make some determinations.

                                    Thanks for the price sheet, that will help as well.

                                    I appreciate everyone's help on this.

                                    Eli Poblitz
                                    bayareavr.com
                                    bayareavr.net
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