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Re: [PanoToolsNG] Re: How much do you charge for a VR?? More

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  • Luca Vascon
    Ahemmm, ok, I ll arrive with the first fly. I hope you need help over there. ... Just the time to pack up my cameras and rent or sell my 50mq house in Venice.
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 2, 2008
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      Ahemmm, ok, I'll arrive with the first fly. I hope you need help over there.
      :-DDD
      Just the time to pack up my cameras and rent or sell my 50mq house in
      Venice.
      Today is so foggy I can't see the other side of the canal.

      AYRTON ha scritto:
      >
      > On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Luca Vascon <crimsonkingit@...
      > <mailto:crimsonkingit%40yahoo.it>> wrote:
      >
      > > Your price table seems rasonable. Maybe in Europe we charge more if we
      > > convert dollars with actual rate, I think proportion is the same.
      >
      > My dear portuguese speaker friend Luca :-)
      > for Brazil ...
      > I almost never charge that LOW.
      > Never !
      > Thanks God :-)
      >
      > AYRTON
      >
      > >
      > >
      > > Dave 360texas.com ha scritto:
      > > >
      > > > Since we set our price point we find we are attracting a different
      > > > client group.. like advertising agencies and other professional studio
      > > > photographers who do not have the time or need to learn panorama
      > > > imaging... so they outsource for their project.
      > > >
      > > > http://www.360texas.com/services/info.htm
      > <http://www.360texas.com/services/info.htm>
      > > > <http://www.360texas.com/services/info.htm
      > <http://www.360texas.com/services/info.htm>>
      > > >
      > > > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
      > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
      > > > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>, "jeanpierrelavoie"
      > > > <j_plavoie@...>
      > > > wrote:
      > > > >
      > > > > That's a good question I keep asking myself since I started to
      > > > produce
      > > > > VR and have customers. It is not an easy question depending on
      > > > where
      > > > > you live and what is the market you shoot for. Here in Canada, I
      > > > would
      > > > > say from $250 to $500 canadian dollars. Is it too low, is it too
      > > > > high? What do you think about it?
      > > > >
      > > > > Any thoughts are welcome!
      > > > >
      > > >
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > --
      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > --
      > ------------
      > | A Y R |
      > | T O N |
      > ------------
      >
      > + 55 21 9982 6313
      >
      > http://ayrton360.com <http://ayrton360.com>
      > http://rio.360cities.net <http://rio.360cities.net>
      > http://vrfolio.com <http://vrfolio.com>
      > http://ayrton.com <http://ayrton.com>
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
    • Paul
      Hi Dave, Thanks for sharing, yes your pricing page is a good clear starter with room to move both up and down depending on needs. Can you post a link to a
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 2, 2008
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        Hi Dave,
        Thanks for sharing, yes your pricing page is a good clear starter with
        room to move both up and down depending on needs.

        Can you post a link to a sample of your "Standard 5" includes??

        Do you provide just full screen in Flash 9 and Qt or multi sizes?
        I guess the html provided is the full screen series with the choosen
        web designer creating the webpages and simply inserting the pano
        objects... or do you provide a full linked tour with map etc...

        Sorry for all the questions but we have been pricing based on the
        clients needs but really need to come up with some packages that work
        for the client and us. We need to reduce the leakage of doing to much
        in the "extras" like html, multi sizes etc which we have missed out on
        charging for as it may not have been clear from the outset..

        Thanks

        Paul
        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Dave 360texas.com"
        <texas360dave@...> wrote:
        >
        > Since we set our price point we find we are attracting a different
        > client group.. like advertising agencies and other professional studio
        > photographers who do not have the time or need to learn panorama
        > imaging... so they outsource for their project.
        >
        > http://www.360texas.com/services/info.htm
      • eli20sf
        I d love to hear more about pricing. It s all relative to the end product . But for a high quality, full screen QTVR/FLASH tour with minimal errors - I m
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 2, 2008
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          I'd love to hear more about pricing. It's all relative to the "end
          product". But for a high quality, full screen QTVR/FLASH tour with
          minimal errors - I'm also curious what other's are charging. I use a
          Nikon D200 and 10.5 fisheye, with the 360precision head and Stitcher
          5.6 software. Most of the above equipment has been in my hands for
          only 2 months now. I'm trying to figure out what price point to set
          or how to have pricing differentiate between real estate and
          business/hospitality. I'd love to hear more about people's pricing
          -and how they came to their price point decisions.

          I'm considering doing an hourly rate and just standing by that - but
          I'm not sure if that's what people want to see/hear. Please continue
          to share on this :)

          Take care,

          Eli
        • Nelson Mendes
          This is a helpful topic, and it s nice to know what are the prices charged for a VR all over the world (I m in Portugal). Now, my question is, what do you
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 2, 2008
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            This is a helpful topic, and it's nice to know what are the prices
            charged for a VR all over the world (I'm in Portugal).

            Now, my question is, what do you consider "a VR"? Is it the group of
            photos taken (say, 6+2 photos) stitched to a panorama?
            Or do you generate the QTVR's or another kind of display method for
            VR? If so, do you provide alternative size movies? (Like one low
            resolution and one full res).
            I think all these factors contribute to the final price and it's nice
            to know what "packages" are you providing.

            Nelson Mendes

            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "jeanpierrelavoie" <j_plavoie@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > That's a good question I keep asking myself since I started to produce
            > VR and have customers. It is not an easy question depending on where
            > you live and what is the market you shoot for. Here in Canada, I would
            > say from $250 to $500 canadian dollars. Is it too low, is it too
            > high? What do you think about it?
            >
            > Any thoughts are welcome!
            >
          • jeanpierrelavoie
            I consider a VR, in my case, to be a Flash or Quick Time movie for internet resolution (around 6000 x 3000 pixels equirectangular projection), not high
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 2, 2008
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              I consider a VR, in my case, to be a Flash or Quick Time movie for
              internet resolution (around 6000 x 3000 pixels equirectangular
              projection), not high resolution. I supply a small thumbnail image
              for the VR so that the customer integrates it on his own in his
              website.



              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson Mendes" <nmendes@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > This is a helpful topic, and it's nice to know what are the prices
              > charged for a VR all over the world (I'm in Portugal).
              >
              > Now, my question is, what do you consider "a VR"? Is it the group of
              > photos taken (say, 6+2 photos) stitched to a panorama?
              > Or do you generate the QTVR's or another kind of display method for
              > VR? If so, do you provide alternative size movies? (Like one low
              > resolution and one full res).
              > I think all these factors contribute to the final price and it's
              nice
              > to know what "packages" are you providing.
              >
              > Nelson Mendes
              >
              > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "jeanpierrelavoie" <j_plavoie@>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > That's a good question I keep asking myself since I started to
              produce
              > > VR and have customers. It is not an easy question depending on
              where
              > > you live and what is the market you shoot for. Here in Canada, I
              would
              > > say from $250 to $500 canadian dollars. Is it too low, is it too
              > > high? What do you think about it?
              > >
              > > Any thoughts are welcome!
              > >
              >
            • ebig_foto
              I have a friend who specializes in clientele that need 360 images on an ongoing basis - RE rentals, not sales. He charges a VERY low rate which includes web
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 3, 2008
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                I have a friend who specializes in clientele that need 360 images on an
                ongoing basis - RE rentals, not sales.

                He charges a VERY low rate which includes web pages, authoring, and hosting.
                It is seen as too good a deal to pass up...and he keeps busy.

                The initial minimal fee becomes a subscription which goes on forever, as
                long as the site is "hot." Until it's not.

                Another way of saying - there are a lot of ways of doing business.

                Ed

                --
                View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-much-do-you-charge-for-a-VR---tp15780068p15821304.html
                Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
              • Yuval Levy
                ... it depends on the quality of the work provided, its use and how unique it is. rule number one of marketing is that the selling price of good is not related
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 4, 2008
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                  jeanpierrelavoie wrote:
                  > Here in Canada, I would say from $250 to $500 canadian dollars.

                  it depends on the quality of the work provided, its use and how unique
                  it is. rule number one of marketing is that the selling price of good is
                  not related to production costs. It only has to be higher.

                  To be higher it is important to be aware of production costs, which
                  include amortization and dead time.

                  Some cost factors are fixed and known in advance, others not. Some are
                  predictable, others not. And of course it depends on the quality of the
                  delivery.

                  As an example, mileage is predictable but variable. Before you even
                  start shooting, you spend time and money to get on location. If shoots
                  can be grouped in a single time and location, you can spread these costs
                  over multiple VR. Else, I charge for mileage. My charge here in Quebec
                  was 0.55$/Km for the past three years.

                  If you need to do a lot of retouching at nadir and seam, the time spent
                  in Photoshop is not always predictable. An hourly rate for retouching on
                  top of the price for shooting and basic stitching may be appropriate.

                  Your average price look reasonable to me. Unfortunately it will preclude
                  some markets to you, due to competition by "drive-by shooters". You
                  don't want to be in those markets anyway, where the going price is
                  $20/pano but the quality is nowhere near the high quality you produce.

                  Yuv
                • panotonic01
                  Hi all, I think $ 250 is a good starting point. Underneath, possibly for real estate agents, for 3 to 6 months using, the time of the sale process. After
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 4, 2008
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                    Hi all,

                    I think $ 250 is a good starting point. Underneath, possibly for real
                    estate agents, for 3 to 6 months using, the time of the sale process.

                    After everything is expandable depending on the complexity of
                    shooting.So no limit for the maximum. I will be glad to hear someone
                    sell a Vr for $5000.

                    But I would like for mines nexts submissions, add a cost to use the
                    VR for a period of time such as:
                    $ 200 additional on production costs for 3 years of use , $ 300 for 5
                    years, etc., but never a lifetime, VRs still property of the
                    photographer.
                    Fee is expandable if the compagny is international or local.

                    It s the rule that applies photographers authors like CAPIC (THE
                    CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF PHOTOGRAPHERS AND ILLUSTRATORS IN
                    COMMUNICATIONS).

                    It is in my opinion the way to do so that our work is a reward its
                    fair value.
                    I hope to encourage more of a demarche in this and especially Jean
                    Pierre and Yuval, because we are in the same area. For this benefit
                    to all if we go in this direction billing and enhance our rights.

                    Any reactions of people who already use this system?

                    I hope to be understand with my little english and especially by my
                    customers coming.

                    Yannis
                  • Keith Martin
                    ... Very good points, Yuval. Just as an additional comment here, it is worth making sure the client doesn t see your retouching charges as paying for time
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 4, 2008
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                      Sometime around 4/3/08 (at 07:19 -0500) Yuval Levy said:

                      >If you need to do a lot of retouching at nadir and seam, the time spent
                      >in Photoshop is not always predictable. An hourly rate for retouching on
                      >top of the price for shooting and basic stitching may be appropriate.

                      Very good points, Yuval.

                      Just as an additional comment here, it is worth making sure the
                      client doesn't see your retouching charges as paying for 'time spent
                      correcting your mistakes'. If high quality is desired, most panos
                      will need at least a small amount of retouching work.

                      k
                    • Chris Thomas
                      Hi Yannis. I m a member of CAPIC and I don t sell my copyright on Panos to clients either. As you suggested.. I license the usage. The rate that I m
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 4, 2008
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                        Hi Yannis.

                        I'm a member of CAPIC and I don't sell my copyright on Panos to clients
                        either.

                        As you suggested.. I license the usage. The rate that I'm implimenting in
                        Calgary and Vancouver is:

                        *A "Capture" fee of $600.00.
                        *Panos shot on the day of the "Capture" are licensed for $500.00/ year.
                        *They can license 1 ........ several or none, if they like..
                        Nobody has ever not licensed at least 1!

                        I don't "host" the panos.... I turn over a web ready folder with .swf and
                        xml files.
                        I use FPP for this.

                        Cheers
                        chris


                        Chris Thomas
                        Photographer
                        cell... 403-615-1212
                        In North America
                        call... 1-800-870-5110
                        http://www.christhomas.com

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                        Behalf Of panotonic01
                        Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 6:41 AM
                        To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: How much do you charge for a VR??

                        Hi all,

                        I think $ 250 is a good starting point. Underneath, possibly for real
                        estate agents, for 3 to 6 months using, the time of the sale process.

                        After everything is expandable depending on the complexity of
                        shooting.So no limit for the maximum. I will be glad to hear someone
                        sell a Vr for $5000.

                        But I would like for mines nexts submissions, add a cost to use the
                        VR for a period of time such as:
                        $ 200 additional on production costs for 3 years of use , $ 300 for 5
                        years, etc., but never a lifetime, VRs still property of the
                        photographer.
                        Fee is expandable if the compagny is international or local.

                        It s the rule that applies photographers authors like CAPIC (THE
                        CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF PHOTOGRAPHERS AND ILLUSTRATORS IN
                        COMMUNICATIONS).

                        It is in my opinion the way to do so that our work is a reward its
                        fair value.
                        I hope to encourage more of a demarche in this and especially Jean
                        Pierre and Yuval, because we are in the same area. For this benefit
                        to all if we go in this direction billing and enhance our rights.

                        Any reactions of people who already use this system?

                        I hope to be understand with my little english and especially by my
                        customers coming.

                        Yannis
                        [Chris Thomas] snip
                        .
                      • panotonic01
                        Thanks Chris, My price list is very flexible with customer, but I guess no high enough, rarely people deal the price with me. Do I have the right price or a
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 5, 2008
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                          Thanks Chris,

                          My price list is very flexible with customer, but I guess no high
                          enough, rarely people deal the price with me.
                          Do I have the right price or a too good price?
                          Anyway, I m a youg VR photographer, I improve my shooting and
                          processing every day (in parallel with my price list..)

                          An advice? Charge a bit higher than you thought (We are too modest)

                          ;­-) Yannis




                          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Chris Thomas <chris@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Yannis.
                          >
                          > I'm a member of CAPIC and I don't sell my copyright on Panos to
                          clients
                          > either.
                          >
                          > As you suggested.. I license the usage. The rate that I'm
                          implimenting in
                          > Calgary and Vancouver is:
                          >
                          > *A "Capture" fee of $600.00.
                          > *Panos shot on the day of the "Capture" are licensed for $500.00/
                          year.
                          > *They can license 1 ........ several or none, if they like..
                          > Nobody has ever not licensed at least 1!
                          >
                          > I don't "host" the panos.... I turn over a web ready folder
                          with .swf and
                          > xml files.
                          > I use FPP for this.
                          >
                          > Cheers
                          > chris
                          >
                          >
                          > Chris Thomas
                          > Photographer
                          > cell... 403-615-1212
                          > In North America
                          > call... 1-800-870-5110
                          > http://www.christhomas.com
                          >
                          > -----Original Message-----
                          > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                          > Behalf Of panotonic01
                          > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 6:41 AM
                          > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: How much do you charge for a VR??
                          >
                          > Hi all,
                          >
                          > I think $ 250 is a good starting point. Underneath, possibly for
                          real
                          > estate agents, for 3 to 6 months using, the time of the sale
                          process.
                          >
                          > After everything is expandable depending on the complexity of
                          > shooting.So no limit for the maximum. I will be glad to hear someone
                          > sell a Vr for $5000.
                          >
                          > But I would like for mines nexts submissions, add a cost to use the
                          > VR for a period of time such as:
                          > $ 200 additional on production costs for 3 years of use , $ 300 for
                          5
                          > years, etc., but never a lifetime, VRs still property of the
                          > photographer.
                          > Fee is expandable if the compagny is international or local.
                          >
                          > It s the rule that applies photographers authors like CAPIC (THE
                          > CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF PHOTOGRAPHERS AND ILLUSTRATORS IN
                          > COMMUNICATIONS).
                          >
                          > It is in my opinion the way to do so that our work is a reward its
                          > fair value.
                          > I hope to encourage more of a demarche in this and especially Jean
                          > Pierre and Yuval, because we are in the same area. For this benefit
                          > to all if we go in this direction billing and enhance our rights.
                          >
                          > Any reactions of people who already use this system?
                          >
                          > I hope to be understand with my little english and especially by my
                          > customers coming.
                          >
                          > Yannis
                          > [Chris Thomas] snip
                          > .
                          >
                        • Chris Thomas
                          Best Advise I can give is Keep your copyright.. Or charge them a fortune! Best of luck chris Chris Thomas Photographer cell... 403-615-1212 In North America
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 5, 2008
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                            Best Advise I can give is

                            Keep your copyright.. Or charge them a fortune!



                            Best of luck

                            chris



                            Chris Thomas

                            Photographer

                            cell... 403-615-1212

                            In North America

                            call... 1-800-870-5110

                            <http://www.christhomas.com/> http://www.christhomas.com



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                            Behalf Of panotonic01
                            Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 11:38 AM
                            To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: How much do you charge for a VR??



                            Thanks Chris,

                            My price list is very flexible with customer, but I guess no high
                            enough, rarely people deal the price with me.
                            Do I have the right price or a too good price?
                            Anyway, I m a youg VR photographer, I improve my shooting and
                            processing every day (in parallel with my price list..)

                            An advice? Charge a bit higher than you thought (We are too modest)

                            ;--) Yannis

                            --- In PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
                            Chris Thomas <chris@...> wrote:
                            [Chris Thomas] snip




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • eli20sf
                            Hi Everyone, I m re-lighting this fire. So I ve taken off pricing from my website because I felt like I was too high for realtors, and too low for
                            Message 13 of 23 , May 14, 2008
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                              Hi Everyone,

                              I'm re-lighting this fire. So I've taken off pricing from my
                              website because I felt like I was too high for realtors, and too low
                              for corporate/commercial.

                              I'm creating 6880x3440 pano's w/ my d200/10.5/360precision/realviz
                              (just got PTGUI this week, so I'll be moving over asap) ... and I'm
                              just bouncing around with pricing (too afraid to charge to much, but
                              realizing I do quality work,and it take TIME ... AND I want to
                              charge as much as similar vr photographers doing the same caliber
                              work).

                              I re-read the thread, and it looks like licsensing our work could
                              work out. I'm curious to hear more about how each of you figure
                              your price structure out ... and what, on average, most of us are
                              charing for comparable work. And another question is ... how do you
                              break your pricing to get some of the realty market ... cause
                              realtors are cheap.

                              Thanks again, I hope this isn't a boring subject to most of you.

                              Eli Poblitz
                              http://www.bayareavr.com
                            • Georgia Real Tours
                              ... I m thinking for the generic realtor you are looking at using Mercedes-class equipment in a Pinto-class environment. Okay, maybe Taurus-class environment.
                              Message 14 of 23 , May 14, 2008
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                                On 5/14/08, eli20sf <epoblitz@...> wrote:

                                > I'm creating 6880x3440 pano's w/ my d200/10.5/360precision/realviz
                                > (just got PTGUI this week, so I'll be moving over asap) ... and I'm
                                > just bouncing around with pricing (too afraid to charge to much, but
                                > realizing I do quality work,and it take TIME ... AND I want to
                                > charge as much as similar vr photographers doing the same caliber
                                > work).

                                I'm thinking for the generic realtor you are looking at using
                                Mercedes-class equipment in a Pinto-class environment. Okay, maybe
                                Taurus-class environment. It seems to me your equipment is right for
                                the commercial/corporate stuff, and if you prefer to do the quality
                                work you're set; I'd concentrate on them as often as possible.

                                OTOH, real estate is more likely to pay for your daily life more
                                quickly, in my opinion. It looks like you are going to have to take
                                more shots at higher resolution than you really want; fortunately with
                                your precision head you should be able to take a massive chunk out of
                                the processing since the stitching ought to be almost trivial for you.

                                Ironically, I just sat down this evening to create a "package" menu
                                for my prospective clients; as it turns out most people are completely
                                baffled by a an 8pt font spreadsheet with bizarre words intermingling
                                with rows and columns of numbers. I'll spring that on them when they
                                ask, but for now I'm just going to give them the 1-page menu which
                                covers everything from an introductory offer to an open-ended
                                high-quality package.

                                Out in Middle Georgia, unlike the Bay Area, housing prices are
                                affordable. Which means that commissions are much lower, as is the
                                cost of living (if you don't count fuel and food these days). That
                                means my pricing is going to be a lot lower than yours needs to be
                                (and you'll find I'm in the vast majority when it comes to
                                cost-of-living vs. the Bay Area). An example is that $75,000 gets you
                                a decent 4-bed 2-bath home that is not necessarily within smelling
                                distance of your neighbor, and I've seen TLC vacant homes for $30K.

                                That said, I'll be happy to shoot you a copy of what I've done
                                off-list if you want. Bear in mind, too, that it is a first draft and
                                may change; it is merely a reflection on what I feel I can offer for a
                                fair price and hoping those fall within what realtors consider
                                reasonable for the price. Feel free to pilfer whatever may help you
                                (if that wasn't already implied.) ;c)


                                > and what, on average, most of us are
                                > charing for comparable work.

                                Pssst! Just a reminder.... the Bay Area isn't comparable to most of
                                the rest of the world. ;c) Look at average wages for the areas you
                                compare as well as average home prices to get a better feel for the
                                "exchange rate" between where you are and where the comp is.

                                Cheers,
                                Robert~

                                --
                                Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                                ATL: 678-438-6955
                                garealtours.com
                              • Daley
                                Hi Robert, do you mind send a copy off-list to my email as well, more than grateful to have it. As I mentioned on another thread, I having real hard time to
                                Message 15 of 23 , May 16, 2008
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                                  Hi Robert, do you mind send a copy off-list to my email as well,
                                  more than grateful to have it. As I mentioned on another thread, I
                                  having real hard time to figure out what is the right structure to
                                  price because from country where I come from, there isn't a market
                                  for this thing yet. I am alone here and crying for help! So forum
                                  like this one and ppl like you can really do great help. Thanks
                                  again.


                                  Daley.
                                  MAlaysia
                                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Georgia Real Tours"
                                  <garealtours@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > On 5/14/08, eli20sf <epoblitz@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > > I'm creating 6880x3440 pano's w/ my
                                  d200/10.5/360precision/realviz
                                  > > (just got PTGUI this week, so I'll be moving over asap) ... and
                                  I'm
                                  > > just bouncing around with pricing (too afraid to charge to
                                  much, but
                                  > > realizing I do quality work,and it take TIME ... AND I want to
                                  > > charge as much as similar vr photographers doing the same
                                  caliber
                                  > > work).
                                  >
                                  > I'm thinking for the generic realtor you are looking at using
                                  > Mercedes-class equipment in a Pinto-class environment. Okay, maybe
                                  > Taurus-class environment. It seems to me your equipment is right
                                  for
                                  > the commercial/corporate stuff, and if you prefer to do the quality
                                  > work you're set; I'd concentrate on them as often as possible.
                                  >
                                  > OTOH, real estate is more likely to pay for your daily life more
                                  > quickly, in my opinion. It looks like you are going to have to
                                  take
                                  > more shots at higher resolution than you really want; fortunately
                                  with
                                  > your precision head you should be able to take a massive chunk out
                                  of
                                  > the processing since the stitching ought to be almost trivial for
                                  you.
                                  >
                                  > Ironically, I just sat down this evening to create a "package" menu
                                  > for my prospective clients; as it turns out most people are
                                  completely
                                  > baffled by a an 8pt font spreadsheet with bizarre words
                                  intermingling
                                  > with rows and columns of numbers. I'll spring that on them when
                                  they
                                  > ask, but for now I'm just going to give them the 1-page menu which
                                  > covers everything from an introductory offer to an open-ended
                                  > high-quality package.
                                  >
                                  > Out in Middle Georgia, unlike the Bay Area, housing prices are
                                  > affordable. Which means that commissions are much lower, as is the
                                  > cost of living (if you don't count fuel and food these days). That
                                  > means my pricing is going to be a lot lower than yours needs to be
                                  > (and you'll find I'm in the vast majority when it comes to
                                  > cost-of-living vs. the Bay Area). An example is that $75,000 gets
                                  you
                                  > a decent 4-bed 2-bath home that is not necessarily within smelling
                                  > distance of your neighbor, and I've seen TLC vacant homes for $30K.
                                  >
                                  > That said, I'll be happy to shoot you a copy of what I've done
                                  > off-list if you want. Bear in mind, too, that it is a first draft
                                  and
                                  > may change; it is merely a reflection on what I feel I can offer
                                  for a
                                  > fair price and hoping those fall within what realtors consider
                                  > reasonable for the price. Feel free to pilfer whatever may help
                                  you
                                  > (if that wasn't already implied.) ;c)
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > > and what, on average, most of us are
                                  > > charing for comparable work.
                                  >
                                  > Pssst! Just a reminder.... the Bay Area isn't comparable to most
                                  of
                                  > the rest of the world. ;c) Look at average wages for the areas
                                  you
                                  > compare as well as average home prices to get a better feel for the
                                  > "exchange rate" between where you are and where the comp is.
                                  >
                                  > Cheers,
                                  > Robert~
                                  >
                                  > --
                                  > Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                                  > ATL: 678-438-6955
                                  > garealtours.com
                                  >
                                • Scott Highton
                                  Hi all, Pricing our services effectively is one of the more difficult aspects of being in business as a photographer. In the end, you re going to have to make
                                  Message 16 of 23 , May 16, 2008
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                                    Hi all,

                                    Pricing our services effectively is one of the more difficult aspects
                                    of being in business as a photographer. In the end, you're going to
                                    have to make these decisions for yourself, based upon your own
                                    specific markets and your specific costs of doing business.

                                    Most photographers however -- particularly those starting out,
                                    significantly underestimate how much it costs to be in business and
                                    therefore, significantly undercharge for their services. It's not
                                    usually effective to base your fees on what other photographers
                                    charge, because their business costs, and their markets are likely to
                                    be markedly different from yours. Basing your fees on what your
                                    clients say they want to pay you is pure folly. Nobody can remain in
                                    ANY business very long if they let their clients dictate how much
                                    they charge, rather than charging fair rates based on their own costs
                                    of doing business.


                                    There is lots of free information about pricing VR services at the
                                    Virtual Reality Photography web site: http://www.vrphotography.com

                                    Specifically, there is a free Photo Business Calculator that you can
                                    download to help determine your own costs of doing business and your
                                    own minimum rates at:
                                    http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/onlinetools/
                                    onlinetools.html#photofeescalcanchor

                                    There are also a number of Business Q&As for VR photographers at:
                                    http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/askexperts/askexperts.html

                                    Regards,





                                    Scott Highton
                                    Author, Virtual Reality Photography
                                    Web: http://www.vrphotography.com




                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • eli20sf
                                    Robert, Hi there. Thanks for the reply. I m on the quest brother. Seriously, I m just having a hard time. Especially after I see how much work it takes. I
                                    Message 17 of 23 , May 16, 2008
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                                      Robert,

                                      Hi there. Thanks for the reply. I'm on the quest brother.
                                      Seriously, I'm just having a hard time. Especially after I see how
                                      much work it takes. I just finished these tours from a shoot last
                                      week:

                                      http://www.bayareavr.com/kapu/lanai
                                      http://www.bayareavr.com/tom/waaula/livingroom
                                      http://www.bayareavr.com/private_home/living_room

                                      and let me share my pricing (scenerio). So for kapu, I was able to
                                      get 400 (which is the highest price I've gotten for a 5 tour shot -
                                      and actually I feel like it's much closer to what I want here in the
                                      states).

                                      I went to maui last week to shoot some propertys for a good friend of
                                      mine who's a property manager. The "private home" was one of many
                                      (still rendering) ... and since it's a good friend and a trade for
                                      later, when I want to go out with the family - it's all good in
                                      itself.

                                      Since I was going to Maui, I used craigslist to email a few realtors
                                      in the same city as my buddy - with an informal "Ill be there, here's
                                      my site if your interested". And one realtor took me up. I ended up
                                      shooting 7 houses averaging 5 shoots per house ... and only charged
                                      200 cause I felt like he was getting alot of work, and it was set up
                                      informally. So I set my pricing, but now that I'm back on
                                      the "mainland" and Im processing all this - I'm just realizing how
                                      much fricken work I put into the tours - and I just can't/haven't
                                      taken short cuts. I shoot raw, then tiff sphere, tiff cube (for
                                      nadir) and finally compress in the qtvr stage. I'm unfortunately
                                      still using stitcher (but bought ptgui this week ... just need the
                                      time to learn it).

                                      Anyhow ... charged the realtor 200 per tour. I figured it'd be a
                                      good price since he had 7 properties he wanted shot. Now I'm
                                      somewhat regretting the price cause I'm up to my ears in tours. But
                                      I'm still paying my dues ... at an early stage of my company, and
                                      still very much in a learning stage (which will never stop - I know :)

                                      So the point of this rambling? Just to share. I'm just looking for
                                      strategies to make sure I make money, but don't dilute the vr world
                                      with cheap high res panos. I don't offer much with my tours
                                      (navigation/buttons/etc) but learning more xml for FPP is my next
                                      step (with PTGUI as my first priority).

                                      Robert I like your site. Do you use picassa photos/plug in's for
                                      your blog/site? Great work.

                                      And too everyone else - let's keep this subject going. Sharing price
                                      sheets, sharing experiences, and learning from each other.

                                      And if anyone from this forum is close to, or ever traveling to, San
                                      Francisco ... give me a heads up so I can buy a lunch and drinks.

                                      Take care all,

                                      Eli Poblitz
                                      bayareavr.com
                                      bayareavr.net
                                    • Georgia Real Tours
                                      ... They are beautiful, good job! ... Great business move! ... As you discovered, you severely undercut yourself and, unwittingly, other Hawaiian tour
                                      Message 18 of 23 , May 17, 2008
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                                        On 5/16/08, eli20sf <epoblitz@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Robert,
                                        >
                                        > Hi there. Thanks for the reply. I'm on the quest brother.
                                        > Seriously, I'm just having a hard time. Especially after I see how
                                        > much work it takes. I just finished these tours from a shoot last
                                        > week:
                                        >
                                        > http://www.bayareavr.com/kapu/lanai
                                        > http://www.bayareavr.com/tom/waaula/livingroom
                                        > http://www.bayareavr.com/private_home/living_room

                                        They are beautiful, good job!


                                        > and let me share my pricing (scenerio). So for kapu, I was able to
                                        > get 400 (which is the highest price I've gotten for a 5 tour shot -
                                        > and actually I feel like it's much closer to what I want here in the
                                        > states).


                                        > Since I was going to Maui, I used craigslist to email a few realtors
                                        > in the same city as my buddy - with an informal "Ill be there, here's
                                        > my site if your interested". And one realtor took me up.

                                        Great business move!


                                        > I ended up
                                        > shooting 7 houses averaging 5 shoots per house ... and only charged
                                        > 200 cause I felt like he was getting alot of work, and it was set up
                                        > informally.

                                        ...snip...

                                        > Anyhow ... charged the realtor 200 per tour. I figured it'd be a
                                        > good price since he had 7 properties he wanted shot. Now I'm
                                        > somewhat regretting the price cause I'm up to my ears in tours.

                                        As you discovered, you severely undercut yourself and, unwittingly,
                                        other Hawaiian tour providers who will forever more hear from that
                                        realtor that he/she gets VTs for $200 a pop. As you found, he/she got
                                        a steal from you. (Okay, you *would* have to bring up perhaps the
                                        only place even more expensive than the Bay Area...)


                                        My advice, and by the way Scott is absolutely right so re-read his
                                        post, is to take a hard look at your expenses and how much time it
                                        takes you to do your work from start to finish. Multiply your time by
                                        5 and your expenses by 3. That is, imagine you only get to work 8
                                        hours per week for which you are getting paid and the rest of the time
                                        is what you are doing to sustain and promote your business. Take your
                                        3x expenses and find out how much per hour that is. Then figure out
                                        how much time it takes per tour and multiply that by the hourly rate
                                        you calculated.

                                        So, for example, your mortgage/rent plus utilities is $2,000 per
                                        month, your software licensing and business licensing, vehicle costs,
                                        insurance, computer costs, your photography equipment costs (don't
                                        forget that you have depreciation and wear & tear on vehicles,
                                        computers, and photography equipment!), your tax liabilities, and so
                                        forth, all come up to an additional $3,000 per month, your total you
                                        need to survive each month is $5,000. Triple that is $15,000 (your
                                        goal). If you work 32 hours to get that $15,000 and it takes you two
                                        hours per tour, you would need 16 tours at $937.50 each to get there.
                                        However, just to break even it would take $312.50 per tour.

                                        But you aren't doing this as a non-profit. Retail typically marks up
                                        a MINIMUM of 100% for their pricing on average, and more if they can,
                                        to give you a comparison of markup. Further, you don't want to
                                        undercut your competition either; you probably won't if you use the
                                        formula I laid out. Better yet, use Scott's calculator.

                                        My prices are based on my requirements and my market. However, I also
                                        have streamlined my process so it takes about 10 to 15 minutes per
                                        360°, and just a couple of minutes for non-360° items. Also keep in
                                        mind in the less-expensive tours I'm not offering HDR or spherical
                                        tours which cuts out a lot of the pain-staking work. (FYI, my
                                        mortgage is just over $500 and I work from a home office, just to give
                                        you an idea to compare.)


                                        > Robert I like your site. Do you use picassa photos/plug in's for
                                        > your blog/site? Great work.

                                        Thank you. :c)

                                        No. I did use Picasa to create a 'photostack' of Polaroids a few
                                        times, and will continue to use it. I've used Picasa for a few other
                                        special effects, but really I don't use Picasa for anything.

                                        The site uses Joomla! and some flash (which is just there for eye
                                        candy). The template is from JoomlaShack. I also use SmugMug Pro
                                        http://www.smugmug.com/?referrer=N2DVOMFMpBc1U which is AJAX-based and
                                        SlideShowPro http://www.slideshopro.net/ which is Flash-based and runs
                                        on my own server. However, neither of these are in use where I can
                                        demonstrate them. I'm working on it...

                                        FYI, the hosting costs me about $8 per month, the SlideShowPro was $86
                                        for all the bells and whistles, the template was $40, and SmugMug is
                                        $149/year, or just over $12/mo.



                                        > And too everyone else - let's keep this subject going. Sharing price
                                        > sheets, sharing experiences, and learning from each other.
                                        >
                                        > And if anyone from this forum is close to, or ever traveling to, San
                                        > Francisco ... give me a heads up so I can buy a lunch and drinks.

                                        I'll take you up on it one day. ;c)

                                        Best Wishes,
                                        Robert~

                                        P.S., I'll send you my rate sheets separately.

                                        --
                                        Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                                        ATL: 678-438-6955
                                        garealtours.com
                                      • eli20sf
                                        Thanks for the well thought out reply. Yeah ... I m kicking my self for the low pricing cause I m rendering like hell - but I m still catching my balance in
                                        Message 19 of 23 , May 17, 2008
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                                          Thanks for the well thought out reply. Yeah ... I'm kicking my self
                                          for the low pricing cause I'm rendering like hell - but I'm still
                                          catching my balance in this business.

                                          I'm going to sit down tonight and use Scott's calculator and your
                                          advice ... and make some determinations.

                                          Thanks for the price sheet, that will help as well.

                                          I appreciate everyone's help on this.

                                          Eli Poblitz
                                          bayareavr.com
                                          bayareavr.net
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