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Re: [PanoToolsNG] Re: How much do you charge for a VR?? More

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  • AYRTON
    ... My dear portuguese speaker friend Luca :-) for Brazil ... I almost never charge that LOW. Never ! Thanks God :-) AYRTON ... -- ... + 55 21 9982 6313
    Message 1 of 23 , Mar 1, 2008
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      On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Luca Vascon <crimsonkingit@...> wrote:

      > Your price table seems rasonable. Maybe in Europe we charge more if we
      > convert dollars with actual rate, I think proportion is the same.


      My dear portuguese speaker friend Luca :-)
      for Brazil ...
      I almost never charge that LOW.
      Never !
      Thanks God :-)

      AYRTON



      >
      >
      > Dave 360texas.com ha scritto:
      > >
      > > Since we set our price point we find we are attracting a different
      > > client group.. like advertising agencies and other professional studio
      > > photographers who do not have the time or need to learn panorama
      > > imaging... so they outsource for their project.
      > >
      > > http://www.360texas.com/services/info.htm
      > > <http://www.360texas.com/services/info.htm>
      > >
      > > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
      > > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>, "jeanpierrelavoie"
      > > <j_plavoie@...>
      > > wrote:
      > > >
      > > > That's a good question I keep asking myself since I started to
      > > produce
      > > > VR and have customers. It is not an easy question depending on
      > > where
      > > > you live and what is the market you shoot for. Here in Canada, I
      > > would
      > > > say from $250 to $500 canadian dollars. Is it too low, is it too
      > > > high? What do you think about it?
      > > >
      > > > Any thoughts are welcome!
      > > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      > --
      > Yahoo! Groups Links
      >
      >
      >
      >


      --
      ------------
      | A Y R |
      | T O N |
      ------------

      + 55 21 9982 6313

      http://ayrton360.com
      http://rio.360cities.net
      http://vrfolio.com
      http://ayrton.com


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Luca Vascon
      Ahemmm, ok, I ll arrive with the first fly. I hope you need help over there. ... Just the time to pack up my cameras and rent or sell my 50mq house in Venice.
      Message 2 of 23 , Mar 2, 2008
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        Ahemmm, ok, I'll arrive with the first fly. I hope you need help over there.
        :-DDD
        Just the time to pack up my cameras and rent or sell my 50mq house in
        Venice.
        Today is so foggy I can't see the other side of the canal.

        AYRTON ha scritto:
        >
        > On Sat, Mar 1, 2008 at 5:51 PM, Luca Vascon <crimsonkingit@...
        > <mailto:crimsonkingit%40yahoo.it>> wrote:
        >
        > > Your price table seems rasonable. Maybe in Europe we charge more if we
        > > convert dollars with actual rate, I think proportion is the same.
        >
        > My dear portuguese speaker friend Luca :-)
        > for Brazil ...
        > I almost never charge that LOW.
        > Never !
        > Thanks God :-)
        >
        > AYRTON
        >
        > >
        > >
        > > Dave 360texas.com ha scritto:
        > > >
        > > > Since we set our price point we find we are attracting a different
        > > > client group.. like advertising agencies and other professional studio
        > > > photographers who do not have the time or need to learn panorama
        > > > imaging... so they outsource for their project.
        > > >
        > > > http://www.360texas.com/services/info.htm
        > <http://www.360texas.com/services/info.htm>
        > > > <http://www.360texas.com/services/info.htm
        > <http://www.360texas.com/services/info.htm>>
        > > >
        > > > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
        > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
        > > > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>, "jeanpierrelavoie"
        > > > <j_plavoie@...>
        > > > wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > That's a good question I keep asking myself since I started to
        > > > produce
        > > > > VR and have customers. It is not an easy question depending on
        > > > where
        > > > > you live and what is the market you shoot for. Here in Canada, I
        > > > would
        > > > > say from $250 to $500 canadian dollars. Is it too low, is it too
        > > > > high? What do you think about it?
        > > > >
        > > > > Any thoughts are welcome!
        > > > >
        > > >
        > > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > --
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > --
        > ------------
        > | A Y R |
        > | T O N |
        > ------------
        >
        > + 55 21 9982 6313
        >
        > http://ayrton360.com <http://ayrton360.com>
        > http://rio.360cities.net <http://rio.360cities.net>
        > http://vrfolio.com <http://vrfolio.com>
        > http://ayrton.com <http://ayrton.com>
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
      • Paul
        Hi Dave, Thanks for sharing, yes your pricing page is a good clear starter with room to move both up and down depending on needs. Can you post a link to a
        Message 3 of 23 , Mar 2, 2008
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          Hi Dave,
          Thanks for sharing, yes your pricing page is a good clear starter with
          room to move both up and down depending on needs.

          Can you post a link to a sample of your "Standard 5" includes??

          Do you provide just full screen in Flash 9 and Qt or multi sizes?
          I guess the html provided is the full screen series with the choosen
          web designer creating the webpages and simply inserting the pano
          objects... or do you provide a full linked tour with map etc...

          Sorry for all the questions but we have been pricing based on the
          clients needs but really need to come up with some packages that work
          for the client and us. We need to reduce the leakage of doing to much
          in the "extras" like html, multi sizes etc which we have missed out on
          charging for as it may not have been clear from the outset..

          Thanks

          Paul
          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Dave 360texas.com"
          <texas360dave@...> wrote:
          >
          > Since we set our price point we find we are attracting a different
          > client group.. like advertising agencies and other professional studio
          > photographers who do not have the time or need to learn panorama
          > imaging... so they outsource for their project.
          >
          > http://www.360texas.com/services/info.htm
        • eli20sf
          I d love to hear more about pricing. It s all relative to the end product . But for a high quality, full screen QTVR/FLASH tour with minimal errors - I m
          Message 4 of 23 , Mar 2, 2008
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            I'd love to hear more about pricing. It's all relative to the "end
            product". But for a high quality, full screen QTVR/FLASH tour with
            minimal errors - I'm also curious what other's are charging. I use a
            Nikon D200 and 10.5 fisheye, with the 360precision head and Stitcher
            5.6 software. Most of the above equipment has been in my hands for
            only 2 months now. I'm trying to figure out what price point to set
            or how to have pricing differentiate between real estate and
            business/hospitality. I'd love to hear more about people's pricing
            -and how they came to their price point decisions.

            I'm considering doing an hourly rate and just standing by that - but
            I'm not sure if that's what people want to see/hear. Please continue
            to share on this :)

            Take care,

            Eli
          • Nelson Mendes
            This is a helpful topic, and it s nice to know what are the prices charged for a VR all over the world (I m in Portugal). Now, my question is, what do you
            Message 5 of 23 , Mar 2, 2008
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              This is a helpful topic, and it's nice to know what are the prices
              charged for a VR all over the world (I'm in Portugal).

              Now, my question is, what do you consider "a VR"? Is it the group of
              photos taken (say, 6+2 photos) stitched to a panorama?
              Or do you generate the QTVR's or another kind of display method for
              VR? If so, do you provide alternative size movies? (Like one low
              resolution and one full res).
              I think all these factors contribute to the final price and it's nice
              to know what "packages" are you providing.

              Nelson Mendes

              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "jeanpierrelavoie" <j_plavoie@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > That's a good question I keep asking myself since I started to produce
              > VR and have customers. It is not an easy question depending on where
              > you live and what is the market you shoot for. Here in Canada, I would
              > say from $250 to $500 canadian dollars. Is it too low, is it too
              > high? What do you think about it?
              >
              > Any thoughts are welcome!
              >
            • jeanpierrelavoie
              I consider a VR, in my case, to be a Flash or Quick Time movie for internet resolution (around 6000 x 3000 pixels equirectangular projection), not high
              Message 6 of 23 , Mar 2, 2008
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                I consider a VR, in my case, to be a Flash or Quick Time movie for
                internet resolution (around 6000 x 3000 pixels equirectangular
                projection), not high resolution. I supply a small thumbnail image
                for the VR so that the customer integrates it on his own in his
                website.



                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Nelson Mendes" <nmendes@...>
                wrote:
                >
                > This is a helpful topic, and it's nice to know what are the prices
                > charged for a VR all over the world (I'm in Portugal).
                >
                > Now, my question is, what do you consider "a VR"? Is it the group of
                > photos taken (say, 6+2 photos) stitched to a panorama?
                > Or do you generate the QTVR's or another kind of display method for
                > VR? If so, do you provide alternative size movies? (Like one low
                > resolution and one full res).
                > I think all these factors contribute to the final price and it's
                nice
                > to know what "packages" are you providing.
                >
                > Nelson Mendes
                >
                > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "jeanpierrelavoie" <j_plavoie@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > That's a good question I keep asking myself since I started to
                produce
                > > VR and have customers. It is not an easy question depending on
                where
                > > you live and what is the market you shoot for. Here in Canada, I
                would
                > > say from $250 to $500 canadian dollars. Is it too low, is it too
                > > high? What do you think about it?
                > >
                > > Any thoughts are welcome!
                > >
                >
              • ebig_foto
                I have a friend who specializes in clientele that need 360 images on an ongoing basis - RE rentals, not sales. He charges a VERY low rate which includes web
                Message 7 of 23 , Mar 3, 2008
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                  I have a friend who specializes in clientele that need 360 images on an
                  ongoing basis - RE rentals, not sales.

                  He charges a VERY low rate which includes web pages, authoring, and hosting.
                  It is seen as too good a deal to pass up...and he keeps busy.

                  The initial minimal fee becomes a subscription which goes on forever, as
                  long as the site is "hot." Until it's not.

                  Another way of saying - there are a lot of ways of doing business.

                  Ed

                  --
                  View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-much-do-you-charge-for-a-VR---tp15780068p15821304.html
                  Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
                • Yuval Levy
                  ... it depends on the quality of the work provided, its use and how unique it is. rule number one of marketing is that the selling price of good is not related
                  Message 8 of 23 , Mar 4, 2008
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                    jeanpierrelavoie wrote:
                    > Here in Canada, I would say from $250 to $500 canadian dollars.

                    it depends on the quality of the work provided, its use and how unique
                    it is. rule number one of marketing is that the selling price of good is
                    not related to production costs. It only has to be higher.

                    To be higher it is important to be aware of production costs, which
                    include amortization and dead time.

                    Some cost factors are fixed and known in advance, others not. Some are
                    predictable, others not. And of course it depends on the quality of the
                    delivery.

                    As an example, mileage is predictable but variable. Before you even
                    start shooting, you spend time and money to get on location. If shoots
                    can be grouped in a single time and location, you can spread these costs
                    over multiple VR. Else, I charge for mileage. My charge here in Quebec
                    was 0.55$/Km for the past three years.

                    If you need to do a lot of retouching at nadir and seam, the time spent
                    in Photoshop is not always predictable. An hourly rate for retouching on
                    top of the price for shooting and basic stitching may be appropriate.

                    Your average price look reasonable to me. Unfortunately it will preclude
                    some markets to you, due to competition by "drive-by shooters". You
                    don't want to be in those markets anyway, where the going price is
                    $20/pano but the quality is nowhere near the high quality you produce.

                    Yuv
                  • panotonic01
                    Hi all, I think $ 250 is a good starting point. Underneath, possibly for real estate agents, for 3 to 6 months using, the time of the sale process. After
                    Message 9 of 23 , Mar 4, 2008
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                      Hi all,

                      I think $ 250 is a good starting point. Underneath, possibly for real
                      estate agents, for 3 to 6 months using, the time of the sale process.

                      After everything is expandable depending on the complexity of
                      shooting.So no limit for the maximum. I will be glad to hear someone
                      sell a Vr for $5000.

                      But I would like for mines nexts submissions, add a cost to use the
                      VR for a period of time such as:
                      $ 200 additional on production costs for 3 years of use , $ 300 for 5
                      years, etc., but never a lifetime, VRs still property of the
                      photographer.
                      Fee is expandable if the compagny is international or local.

                      It s the rule that applies photographers authors like CAPIC (THE
                      CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF PHOTOGRAPHERS AND ILLUSTRATORS IN
                      COMMUNICATIONS).

                      It is in my opinion the way to do so that our work is a reward its
                      fair value.
                      I hope to encourage more of a demarche in this and especially Jean
                      Pierre and Yuval, because we are in the same area. For this benefit
                      to all if we go in this direction billing and enhance our rights.

                      Any reactions of people who already use this system?

                      I hope to be understand with my little english and especially by my
                      customers coming.

                      Yannis
                    • Keith Martin
                      ... Very good points, Yuval. Just as an additional comment here, it is worth making sure the client doesn t see your retouching charges as paying for time
                      Message 10 of 23 , Mar 4, 2008
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                        Sometime around 4/3/08 (at 07:19 -0500) Yuval Levy said:

                        >If you need to do a lot of retouching at nadir and seam, the time spent
                        >in Photoshop is not always predictable. An hourly rate for retouching on
                        >top of the price for shooting and basic stitching may be appropriate.

                        Very good points, Yuval.

                        Just as an additional comment here, it is worth making sure the
                        client doesn't see your retouching charges as paying for 'time spent
                        correcting your mistakes'. If high quality is desired, most panos
                        will need at least a small amount of retouching work.

                        k
                      • Chris Thomas
                        Hi Yannis. I m a member of CAPIC and I don t sell my copyright on Panos to clients either. As you suggested.. I license the usage. The rate that I m
                        Message 11 of 23 , Mar 4, 2008
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                          Hi Yannis.

                          I'm a member of CAPIC and I don't sell my copyright on Panos to clients
                          either.

                          As you suggested.. I license the usage. The rate that I'm implimenting in
                          Calgary and Vancouver is:

                          *A "Capture" fee of $600.00.
                          *Panos shot on the day of the "Capture" are licensed for $500.00/ year.
                          *They can license 1 ........ several or none, if they like..
                          Nobody has ever not licensed at least 1!

                          I don't "host" the panos.... I turn over a web ready folder with .swf and
                          xml files.
                          I use FPP for this.

                          Cheers
                          chris


                          Chris Thomas
                          Photographer
                          cell... 403-615-1212
                          In North America
                          call... 1-800-870-5110
                          http://www.christhomas.com

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of panotonic01
                          Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 6:41 AM
                          To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: How much do you charge for a VR??

                          Hi all,

                          I think $ 250 is a good starting point. Underneath, possibly for real
                          estate agents, for 3 to 6 months using, the time of the sale process.

                          After everything is expandable depending on the complexity of
                          shooting.So no limit for the maximum. I will be glad to hear someone
                          sell a Vr for $5000.

                          But I would like for mines nexts submissions, add a cost to use the
                          VR for a period of time such as:
                          $ 200 additional on production costs for 3 years of use , $ 300 for 5
                          years, etc., but never a lifetime, VRs still property of the
                          photographer.
                          Fee is expandable if the compagny is international or local.

                          It s the rule that applies photographers authors like CAPIC (THE
                          CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF PHOTOGRAPHERS AND ILLUSTRATORS IN
                          COMMUNICATIONS).

                          It is in my opinion the way to do so that our work is a reward its
                          fair value.
                          I hope to encourage more of a demarche in this and especially Jean
                          Pierre and Yuval, because we are in the same area. For this benefit
                          to all if we go in this direction billing and enhance our rights.

                          Any reactions of people who already use this system?

                          I hope to be understand with my little english and especially by my
                          customers coming.

                          Yannis
                          [Chris Thomas] snip
                          .
                        • panotonic01
                          Thanks Chris, My price list is very flexible with customer, but I guess no high enough, rarely people deal the price with me. Do I have the right price or a
                          Message 12 of 23 , Mar 5, 2008
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                            Thanks Chris,

                            My price list is very flexible with customer, but I guess no high
                            enough, rarely people deal the price with me.
                            Do I have the right price or a too good price?
                            Anyway, I m a youg VR photographer, I improve my shooting and
                            processing every day (in parallel with my price list..)

                            An advice? Charge a bit higher than you thought (We are too modest)

                            ;­-) Yannis




                            --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Chris Thomas <chris@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Yannis.
                            >
                            > I'm a member of CAPIC and I don't sell my copyright on Panos to
                            clients
                            > either.
                            >
                            > As you suggested.. I license the usage. The rate that I'm
                            implimenting in
                            > Calgary and Vancouver is:
                            >
                            > *A "Capture" fee of $600.00.
                            > *Panos shot on the day of the "Capture" are licensed for $500.00/
                            year.
                            > *They can license 1 ........ several or none, if they like..
                            > Nobody has ever not licensed at least 1!
                            >
                            > I don't "host" the panos.... I turn over a web ready folder
                            with .swf and
                            > xml files.
                            > I use FPP for this.
                            >
                            > Cheers
                            > chris
                            >
                            >
                            > Chris Thomas
                            > Photographer
                            > cell... 403-615-1212
                            > In North America
                            > call... 1-800-870-5110
                            > http://www.christhomas.com
                            >
                            > -----Original Message-----
                            > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                            > Behalf Of panotonic01
                            > Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2008 6:41 AM
                            > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                            > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: How much do you charge for a VR??
                            >
                            > Hi all,
                            >
                            > I think $ 250 is a good starting point. Underneath, possibly for
                            real
                            > estate agents, for 3 to 6 months using, the time of the sale
                            process.
                            >
                            > After everything is expandable depending on the complexity of
                            > shooting.So no limit for the maximum. I will be glad to hear someone
                            > sell a Vr for $5000.
                            >
                            > But I would like for mines nexts submissions, add a cost to use the
                            > VR for a period of time such as:
                            > $ 200 additional on production costs for 3 years of use , $ 300 for
                            5
                            > years, etc., but never a lifetime, VRs still property of the
                            > photographer.
                            > Fee is expandable if the compagny is international or local.
                            >
                            > It s the rule that applies photographers authors like CAPIC (THE
                            > CANADIAN ASSOCIATION OF PHOTOGRAPHERS AND ILLUSTRATORS IN
                            > COMMUNICATIONS).
                            >
                            > It is in my opinion the way to do so that our work is a reward its
                            > fair value.
                            > I hope to encourage more of a demarche in this and especially Jean
                            > Pierre and Yuval, because we are in the same area. For this benefit
                            > to all if we go in this direction billing and enhance our rights.
                            >
                            > Any reactions of people who already use this system?
                            >
                            > I hope to be understand with my little english and especially by my
                            > customers coming.
                            >
                            > Yannis
                            > [Chris Thomas] snip
                            > .
                            >
                          • Chris Thomas
                            Best Advise I can give is Keep your copyright.. Or charge them a fortune! Best of luck chris Chris Thomas Photographer cell... 403-615-1212 In North America
                            Message 13 of 23 , Mar 5, 2008
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                              Best Advise I can give is

                              Keep your copyright.. Or charge them a fortune!



                              Best of luck

                              chris



                              Chris Thomas

                              Photographer

                              cell... 403-615-1212

                              In North America

                              call... 1-800-870-5110

                              <http://www.christhomas.com/> http://www.christhomas.com



                              -----Original Message-----
                              From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of panotonic01
                              Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2008 11:38 AM
                              To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: How much do you charge for a VR??



                              Thanks Chris,

                              My price list is very flexible with customer, but I guess no high
                              enough, rarely people deal the price with me.
                              Do I have the right price or a too good price?
                              Anyway, I m a youg VR photographer, I improve my shooting and
                              processing every day (in parallel with my price list..)

                              An advice? Charge a bit higher than you thought (We are too modest)

                              ;--) Yannis

                              --- In PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
                              Chris Thomas <chris@...> wrote:
                              [Chris Thomas] snip




                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • eli20sf
                              Hi Everyone, I m re-lighting this fire. So I ve taken off pricing from my website because I felt like I was too high for realtors, and too low for
                              Message 14 of 23 , May 14, 2008
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                                Hi Everyone,

                                I'm re-lighting this fire. So I've taken off pricing from my
                                website because I felt like I was too high for realtors, and too low
                                for corporate/commercial.

                                I'm creating 6880x3440 pano's w/ my d200/10.5/360precision/realviz
                                (just got PTGUI this week, so I'll be moving over asap) ... and I'm
                                just bouncing around with pricing (too afraid to charge to much, but
                                realizing I do quality work,and it take TIME ... AND I want to
                                charge as much as similar vr photographers doing the same caliber
                                work).

                                I re-read the thread, and it looks like licsensing our work could
                                work out. I'm curious to hear more about how each of you figure
                                your price structure out ... and what, on average, most of us are
                                charing for comparable work. And another question is ... how do you
                                break your pricing to get some of the realty market ... cause
                                realtors are cheap.

                                Thanks again, I hope this isn't a boring subject to most of you.

                                Eli Poblitz
                                http://www.bayareavr.com
                              • Georgia Real Tours
                                ... I m thinking for the generic realtor you are looking at using Mercedes-class equipment in a Pinto-class environment. Okay, maybe Taurus-class environment.
                                Message 15 of 23 , May 14, 2008
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                                  On 5/14/08, eli20sf <epoblitz@...> wrote:

                                  > I'm creating 6880x3440 pano's w/ my d200/10.5/360precision/realviz
                                  > (just got PTGUI this week, so I'll be moving over asap) ... and I'm
                                  > just bouncing around with pricing (too afraid to charge to much, but
                                  > realizing I do quality work,and it take TIME ... AND I want to
                                  > charge as much as similar vr photographers doing the same caliber
                                  > work).

                                  I'm thinking for the generic realtor you are looking at using
                                  Mercedes-class equipment in a Pinto-class environment. Okay, maybe
                                  Taurus-class environment. It seems to me your equipment is right for
                                  the commercial/corporate stuff, and if you prefer to do the quality
                                  work you're set; I'd concentrate on them as often as possible.

                                  OTOH, real estate is more likely to pay for your daily life more
                                  quickly, in my opinion. It looks like you are going to have to take
                                  more shots at higher resolution than you really want; fortunately with
                                  your precision head you should be able to take a massive chunk out of
                                  the processing since the stitching ought to be almost trivial for you.

                                  Ironically, I just sat down this evening to create a "package" menu
                                  for my prospective clients; as it turns out most people are completely
                                  baffled by a an 8pt font spreadsheet with bizarre words intermingling
                                  with rows and columns of numbers. I'll spring that on them when they
                                  ask, but for now I'm just going to give them the 1-page menu which
                                  covers everything from an introductory offer to an open-ended
                                  high-quality package.

                                  Out in Middle Georgia, unlike the Bay Area, housing prices are
                                  affordable. Which means that commissions are much lower, as is the
                                  cost of living (if you don't count fuel and food these days). That
                                  means my pricing is going to be a lot lower than yours needs to be
                                  (and you'll find I'm in the vast majority when it comes to
                                  cost-of-living vs. the Bay Area). An example is that $75,000 gets you
                                  a decent 4-bed 2-bath home that is not necessarily within smelling
                                  distance of your neighbor, and I've seen TLC vacant homes for $30K.

                                  That said, I'll be happy to shoot you a copy of what I've done
                                  off-list if you want. Bear in mind, too, that it is a first draft and
                                  may change; it is merely a reflection on what I feel I can offer for a
                                  fair price and hoping those fall within what realtors consider
                                  reasonable for the price. Feel free to pilfer whatever may help you
                                  (if that wasn't already implied.) ;c)


                                  > and what, on average, most of us are
                                  > charing for comparable work.

                                  Pssst! Just a reminder.... the Bay Area isn't comparable to most of
                                  the rest of the world. ;c) Look at average wages for the areas you
                                  compare as well as average home prices to get a better feel for the
                                  "exchange rate" between where you are and where the comp is.

                                  Cheers,
                                  Robert~

                                  --
                                  Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                                  ATL: 678-438-6955
                                  garealtours.com
                                • Daley
                                  Hi Robert, do you mind send a copy off-list to my email as well, more than grateful to have it. As I mentioned on another thread, I having real hard time to
                                  Message 16 of 23 , May 16, 2008
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                                    Hi Robert, do you mind send a copy off-list to my email as well,
                                    more than grateful to have it. As I mentioned on another thread, I
                                    having real hard time to figure out what is the right structure to
                                    price because from country where I come from, there isn't a market
                                    for this thing yet. I am alone here and crying for help! So forum
                                    like this one and ppl like you can really do great help. Thanks
                                    again.


                                    Daley.
                                    MAlaysia
                                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Georgia Real Tours"
                                    <garealtours@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > On 5/14/08, eli20sf <epoblitz@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > > I'm creating 6880x3440 pano's w/ my
                                    d200/10.5/360precision/realviz
                                    > > (just got PTGUI this week, so I'll be moving over asap) ... and
                                    I'm
                                    > > just bouncing around with pricing (too afraid to charge to
                                    much, but
                                    > > realizing I do quality work,and it take TIME ... AND I want to
                                    > > charge as much as similar vr photographers doing the same
                                    caliber
                                    > > work).
                                    >
                                    > I'm thinking for the generic realtor you are looking at using
                                    > Mercedes-class equipment in a Pinto-class environment. Okay, maybe
                                    > Taurus-class environment. It seems to me your equipment is right
                                    for
                                    > the commercial/corporate stuff, and if you prefer to do the quality
                                    > work you're set; I'd concentrate on them as often as possible.
                                    >
                                    > OTOH, real estate is more likely to pay for your daily life more
                                    > quickly, in my opinion. It looks like you are going to have to
                                    take
                                    > more shots at higher resolution than you really want; fortunately
                                    with
                                    > your precision head you should be able to take a massive chunk out
                                    of
                                    > the processing since the stitching ought to be almost trivial for
                                    you.
                                    >
                                    > Ironically, I just sat down this evening to create a "package" menu
                                    > for my prospective clients; as it turns out most people are
                                    completely
                                    > baffled by a an 8pt font spreadsheet with bizarre words
                                    intermingling
                                    > with rows and columns of numbers. I'll spring that on them when
                                    they
                                    > ask, but for now I'm just going to give them the 1-page menu which
                                    > covers everything from an introductory offer to an open-ended
                                    > high-quality package.
                                    >
                                    > Out in Middle Georgia, unlike the Bay Area, housing prices are
                                    > affordable. Which means that commissions are much lower, as is the
                                    > cost of living (if you don't count fuel and food these days). That
                                    > means my pricing is going to be a lot lower than yours needs to be
                                    > (and you'll find I'm in the vast majority when it comes to
                                    > cost-of-living vs. the Bay Area). An example is that $75,000 gets
                                    you
                                    > a decent 4-bed 2-bath home that is not necessarily within smelling
                                    > distance of your neighbor, and I've seen TLC vacant homes for $30K.
                                    >
                                    > That said, I'll be happy to shoot you a copy of what I've done
                                    > off-list if you want. Bear in mind, too, that it is a first draft
                                    and
                                    > may change; it is merely a reflection on what I feel I can offer
                                    for a
                                    > fair price and hoping those fall within what realtors consider
                                    > reasonable for the price. Feel free to pilfer whatever may help
                                    you
                                    > (if that wasn't already implied.) ;c)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > > and what, on average, most of us are
                                    > > charing for comparable work.
                                    >
                                    > Pssst! Just a reminder.... the Bay Area isn't comparable to most
                                    of
                                    > the rest of the world. ;c) Look at average wages for the areas
                                    you
                                    > compare as well as average home prices to get a better feel for the
                                    > "exchange rate" between where you are and where the comp is.
                                    >
                                    > Cheers,
                                    > Robert~
                                    >
                                    > --
                                    > Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                                    > ATL: 678-438-6955
                                    > garealtours.com
                                    >
                                  • Scott Highton
                                    Hi all, Pricing our services effectively is one of the more difficult aspects of being in business as a photographer. In the end, you re going to have to make
                                    Message 17 of 23 , May 16, 2008
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                                      Hi all,

                                      Pricing our services effectively is one of the more difficult aspects
                                      of being in business as a photographer. In the end, you're going to
                                      have to make these decisions for yourself, based upon your own
                                      specific markets and your specific costs of doing business.

                                      Most photographers however -- particularly those starting out,
                                      significantly underestimate how much it costs to be in business and
                                      therefore, significantly undercharge for their services. It's not
                                      usually effective to base your fees on what other photographers
                                      charge, because their business costs, and their markets are likely to
                                      be markedly different from yours. Basing your fees on what your
                                      clients say they want to pay you is pure folly. Nobody can remain in
                                      ANY business very long if they let their clients dictate how much
                                      they charge, rather than charging fair rates based on their own costs
                                      of doing business.


                                      There is lots of free information about pricing VR services at the
                                      Virtual Reality Photography web site: http://www.vrphotography.com

                                      Specifically, there is a free Photo Business Calculator that you can
                                      download to help determine your own costs of doing business and your
                                      own minimum rates at:
                                      http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/onlinetools/
                                      onlinetools.html#photofeescalcanchor

                                      There are also a number of Business Q&As for VR photographers at:
                                      http://www.vrphotography.com/data/pages/askexperts/askexperts.html

                                      Regards,





                                      Scott Highton
                                      Author, Virtual Reality Photography
                                      Web: http://www.vrphotography.com




                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • eli20sf
                                      Robert, Hi there. Thanks for the reply. I m on the quest brother. Seriously, I m just having a hard time. Especially after I see how much work it takes. I
                                      Message 18 of 23 , May 16, 2008
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                                        Robert,

                                        Hi there. Thanks for the reply. I'm on the quest brother.
                                        Seriously, I'm just having a hard time. Especially after I see how
                                        much work it takes. I just finished these tours from a shoot last
                                        week:

                                        http://www.bayareavr.com/kapu/lanai
                                        http://www.bayareavr.com/tom/waaula/livingroom
                                        http://www.bayareavr.com/private_home/living_room

                                        and let me share my pricing (scenerio). So for kapu, I was able to
                                        get 400 (which is the highest price I've gotten for a 5 tour shot -
                                        and actually I feel like it's much closer to what I want here in the
                                        states).

                                        I went to maui last week to shoot some propertys for a good friend of
                                        mine who's a property manager. The "private home" was one of many
                                        (still rendering) ... and since it's a good friend and a trade for
                                        later, when I want to go out with the family - it's all good in
                                        itself.

                                        Since I was going to Maui, I used craigslist to email a few realtors
                                        in the same city as my buddy - with an informal "Ill be there, here's
                                        my site if your interested". And one realtor took me up. I ended up
                                        shooting 7 houses averaging 5 shoots per house ... and only charged
                                        200 cause I felt like he was getting alot of work, and it was set up
                                        informally. So I set my pricing, but now that I'm back on
                                        the "mainland" and Im processing all this - I'm just realizing how
                                        much fricken work I put into the tours - and I just can't/haven't
                                        taken short cuts. I shoot raw, then tiff sphere, tiff cube (for
                                        nadir) and finally compress in the qtvr stage. I'm unfortunately
                                        still using stitcher (but bought ptgui this week ... just need the
                                        time to learn it).

                                        Anyhow ... charged the realtor 200 per tour. I figured it'd be a
                                        good price since he had 7 properties he wanted shot. Now I'm
                                        somewhat regretting the price cause I'm up to my ears in tours. But
                                        I'm still paying my dues ... at an early stage of my company, and
                                        still very much in a learning stage (which will never stop - I know :)

                                        So the point of this rambling? Just to share. I'm just looking for
                                        strategies to make sure I make money, but don't dilute the vr world
                                        with cheap high res panos. I don't offer much with my tours
                                        (navigation/buttons/etc) but learning more xml for FPP is my next
                                        step (with PTGUI as my first priority).

                                        Robert I like your site. Do you use picassa photos/plug in's for
                                        your blog/site? Great work.

                                        And too everyone else - let's keep this subject going. Sharing price
                                        sheets, sharing experiences, and learning from each other.

                                        And if anyone from this forum is close to, or ever traveling to, San
                                        Francisco ... give me a heads up so I can buy a lunch and drinks.

                                        Take care all,

                                        Eli Poblitz
                                        bayareavr.com
                                        bayareavr.net
                                      • Georgia Real Tours
                                        ... They are beautiful, good job! ... Great business move! ... As you discovered, you severely undercut yourself and, unwittingly, other Hawaiian tour
                                        Message 19 of 23 , May 17, 2008
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                                          On 5/16/08, eli20sf <epoblitz@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Robert,
                                          >
                                          > Hi there. Thanks for the reply. I'm on the quest brother.
                                          > Seriously, I'm just having a hard time. Especially after I see how
                                          > much work it takes. I just finished these tours from a shoot last
                                          > week:
                                          >
                                          > http://www.bayareavr.com/kapu/lanai
                                          > http://www.bayareavr.com/tom/waaula/livingroom
                                          > http://www.bayareavr.com/private_home/living_room

                                          They are beautiful, good job!


                                          > and let me share my pricing (scenerio). So for kapu, I was able to
                                          > get 400 (which is the highest price I've gotten for a 5 tour shot -
                                          > and actually I feel like it's much closer to what I want here in the
                                          > states).


                                          > Since I was going to Maui, I used craigslist to email a few realtors
                                          > in the same city as my buddy - with an informal "Ill be there, here's
                                          > my site if your interested". And one realtor took me up.

                                          Great business move!


                                          > I ended up
                                          > shooting 7 houses averaging 5 shoots per house ... and only charged
                                          > 200 cause I felt like he was getting alot of work, and it was set up
                                          > informally.

                                          ...snip...

                                          > Anyhow ... charged the realtor 200 per tour. I figured it'd be a
                                          > good price since he had 7 properties he wanted shot. Now I'm
                                          > somewhat regretting the price cause I'm up to my ears in tours.

                                          As you discovered, you severely undercut yourself and, unwittingly,
                                          other Hawaiian tour providers who will forever more hear from that
                                          realtor that he/she gets VTs for $200 a pop. As you found, he/she got
                                          a steal from you. (Okay, you *would* have to bring up perhaps the
                                          only place even more expensive than the Bay Area...)


                                          My advice, and by the way Scott is absolutely right so re-read his
                                          post, is to take a hard look at your expenses and how much time it
                                          takes you to do your work from start to finish. Multiply your time by
                                          5 and your expenses by 3. That is, imagine you only get to work 8
                                          hours per week for which you are getting paid and the rest of the time
                                          is what you are doing to sustain and promote your business. Take your
                                          3x expenses and find out how much per hour that is. Then figure out
                                          how much time it takes per tour and multiply that by the hourly rate
                                          you calculated.

                                          So, for example, your mortgage/rent plus utilities is $2,000 per
                                          month, your software licensing and business licensing, vehicle costs,
                                          insurance, computer costs, your photography equipment costs (don't
                                          forget that you have depreciation and wear & tear on vehicles,
                                          computers, and photography equipment!), your tax liabilities, and so
                                          forth, all come up to an additional $3,000 per month, your total you
                                          need to survive each month is $5,000. Triple that is $15,000 (your
                                          goal). If you work 32 hours to get that $15,000 and it takes you two
                                          hours per tour, you would need 16 tours at $937.50 each to get there.
                                          However, just to break even it would take $312.50 per tour.

                                          But you aren't doing this as a non-profit. Retail typically marks up
                                          a MINIMUM of 100% for their pricing on average, and more if they can,
                                          to give you a comparison of markup. Further, you don't want to
                                          undercut your competition either; you probably won't if you use the
                                          formula I laid out. Better yet, use Scott's calculator.

                                          My prices are based on my requirements and my market. However, I also
                                          have streamlined my process so it takes about 10 to 15 minutes per
                                          360°, and just a couple of minutes for non-360° items. Also keep in
                                          mind in the less-expensive tours I'm not offering HDR or spherical
                                          tours which cuts out a lot of the pain-staking work. (FYI, my
                                          mortgage is just over $500 and I work from a home office, just to give
                                          you an idea to compare.)


                                          > Robert I like your site. Do you use picassa photos/plug in's for
                                          > your blog/site? Great work.

                                          Thank you. :c)

                                          No. I did use Picasa to create a 'photostack' of Polaroids a few
                                          times, and will continue to use it. I've used Picasa for a few other
                                          special effects, but really I don't use Picasa for anything.

                                          The site uses Joomla! and some flash (which is just there for eye
                                          candy). The template is from JoomlaShack. I also use SmugMug Pro
                                          http://www.smugmug.com/?referrer=N2DVOMFMpBc1U which is AJAX-based and
                                          SlideShowPro http://www.slideshopro.net/ which is Flash-based and runs
                                          on my own server. However, neither of these are in use where I can
                                          demonstrate them. I'm working on it...

                                          FYI, the hosting costs me about $8 per month, the SlideShowPro was $86
                                          for all the bells and whistles, the template was $40, and SmugMug is
                                          $149/year, or just over $12/mo.



                                          > And too everyone else - let's keep this subject going. Sharing price
                                          > sheets, sharing experiences, and learning from each other.
                                          >
                                          > And if anyone from this forum is close to, or ever traveling to, San
                                          > Francisco ... give me a heads up so I can buy a lunch and drinks.

                                          I'll take you up on it one day. ;c)

                                          Best Wishes,
                                          Robert~

                                          P.S., I'll send you my rate sheets separately.

                                          --
                                          Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                                          ATL: 678-438-6955
                                          garealtours.com
                                        • eli20sf
                                          Thanks for the well thought out reply. Yeah ... I m kicking my self for the low pricing cause I m rendering like hell - but I m still catching my balance in
                                          Message 20 of 23 , May 17, 2008
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                                            Thanks for the well thought out reply. Yeah ... I'm kicking my self
                                            for the low pricing cause I'm rendering like hell - but I'm still
                                            catching my balance in this business.

                                            I'm going to sit down tonight and use Scott's calculator and your
                                            advice ... and make some determinations.

                                            Thanks for the price sheet, that will help as well.

                                            I appreciate everyone's help on this.

                                            Eli Poblitz
                                            bayareavr.com
                                            bayareavr.net
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