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Re: [PanoToolsNG] [OT] - Linux advice for a soon to be noob

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  • Georgia Real Tours
    ... Simple. If (when) you trash the install, you can literally start anew in under an hour. Also, it is very easy and quick to test and evaluate different
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 28, 2008
      On 2/27/08, Yuval Levy <yahoo06@...> wrote:
      >
      > Eduardo Hutter wrote:
      > > Hi Robert!
      > >
      > >> (...)
      > >>
      > >> If you can, PLEASE for all that is love and holy, put Linux its own
      > >> hardddrive. Don't get fancy with raids, mirrors, or crazy
      > >> partitioning. And install XP *FIRST*!! When you get experience, then
      > >> fool around with the advanced stuff.
      > >
      > > Why is that?
      >
      > yes, why?

      Simple. If (when) you trash the install, you can literally start anew
      in under an hour. Also, it is very easy and quick to test and
      evaluate different and/or new distributions without worrying about
      what effect it is going to have on the rest of your system.

      Until you comfortable using Linux from the CL, and are aware of the
      potential for damage to the other operating systems, and have a good
      grip on the file system and partitioning used in Linux, you are well
      advised to have an easily swappable haddrive so that you can power
      down, pop out the old harddrive, and drop in a new one. You can then
      quickly reinstall Linux on the new harddrive and pull your data off
      the old harddrive. If you are new to Linux, you are eventually going
      to do something simple that toasts the install. It's natural, and
      part of the learning process.

      If you feel like learning by jumping into the fire and then taking a
      gasoline bath, then by all means start with advanced installations.
      ;c) Most new users don't have asbestos (or Kevlar) underpants as I've
      learned.


      > Installing Windows after Linux will make Linux *temporarily* not
      > bootable and unexperienced users are afraid of that.

      Yuv, he said he was inexperienced (read 'noob'). ;c)


      > The solution is simple: backup the MBR before installing Windows. Then
      > boot with a live CD like the one used to install ubuntu and restore the
      > MBR. Edit the boot entries to add Windows to the menu.

      And chances are, the Linux distro will let them boot to console where
      they can repair/reinstall LILO or GRUB or whatever they are using for
      dual-boot. Again, this is for experienced users. Inexperienced users
      want and need to adhere to the KISS principle. As you said, you can
      fix it, fairly easily I might add, but it may needlessly force some
      folks to reinstall both operating systems due to their unfamiliarity
      with one or both operating systems, or at least their relevant
      components. Not my definition of 'beginner'-level activity.



      > > I mean, about the Linux on its own hd.
      >
      > no need to quarantine Linux, it coexist with Windows on the same HD.

      Sure, that's fine. However, the setup you first imagined gave you the
      opportunity to dedicate a harddrive to Linux. Further, if you are
      like me, you will quickly outgrow the partition. Additionally, and
      perhaps the best reason to use a dedicated harddrive, it is *sooo*
      easy to accidentally destroy the Windows partition during the guided
      Linux setup. Yes, it's a little less dangerous now than in previous
      years, but still it is too easy to do. In fact, it reminds me of when
      cars went from no seatbelt to that lap-belt. Dashes weren't made of
      plastic back then!

      Another reason is one operating system is going to benefit from being
      on the faster part of the harddrive; a benefit denied to the other OS.
      You'll notice that having the OSs on their own harddrive will
      increase the performance of each. Granted, VMWare introduces far
      greater performance hinderances (its other benefits usually far
      outweigh this drawback), but if one is going to go native, then the
      dedicated harddrive is the way to go.



      > If I was you I would use the new HD as scratch disk - because new drives
      > with perpendicular writing have better sustained transfer rate (STR),
      > while the access time (AC) has not changed much. And I'd buy a 500GB
      > disk (best price/GB ratio *and* perpendicular writing).

      If he had the funds to do that, he'd be better off getting VMWare,
      though obviously not for the performance boost. ;c)



      > If you buy a raptor, use it as system disk, not as scratch disk. Also
      > not for the Linux Swap. Scratch disk and swap benefits from STR more
      > than AC - large chunks of data are transferred at once.
      >
      > Raptor(SATA-I, 10K RPM): AC(write): 4.6ms STR:84MB/s
      > Deskstar 7K100 (SATA-II, 7.2K RPM): AC(write): 9.2ms STR:85MB/s
      > For those who have money: Seagate Cheetah(SCSI,15K RPM): 3.9ms / 125MB/s
      >
      > all info from manufacturer's data sheets. similar technology from other
      > manufacturers has similar performance.
      >
      > operating system, like database applications, benefit from AC more than
      > STR - large quantity of small chunks, often concurrent.

      Man, you've really done your homework! :c) Definitely useful for
      anyone looking at increasing their performance of their machine.
      (Good post to bookmark.)

      Regarding the rest of this response, my post was designed for new
      (n00b) users rather than advanced or experienced users. Transitioning
      from Windows is not easy, even going to a Mac (which is easier than
      going to Linux from scratch). And given the inherent complexities
      with Linux, my advice will always be to start simple, easy, and most
      importantly, *disposable*.

      Cheers,
      Robert~

      --
      Mid GA: 478-599-1300
      ATL: 678-438-6955
      garealtours.com
    • Kathy Wheeler
      ... (scratches head) don t you mean when (not if) windows sh!ts itself and scribbles all over the hard drive that your Linux drive is still intact and
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 29, 2008
        On 29/02/2008, at 4:56 PM, Georgia Real Tours wrote:
        > Simple. If (when) you trash the install, you can literally start anew
        > in under an hour.

        (scratches head) don't you mean when (not if) windows sh!ts itself
        and scribbles all over the hard drive that your Linux drive is still
        intact and operable?


        > If you are new to Linux, you are eventually going
        > to do something simple that toasts the install. It's natural, and
        > part of the learning process.

        Sorry Robert, can't agree there. I've installed numerous versions of
        Red Hat and Suse, in multiple boot situations with windows and OS2
        Warp (before OS X [FreeBSD Unix] "came of age" ) and the only thing I
        ever "toasted" was CDs on the poor old G3 ("Toast" CD writer ;-) .
        Unless you do something like an rm -rf at / as root, or run
        everything as root, you're really not that likely to do that much
        damage. That's the whole unix/linux security model. You do not run
        ANYTHING as root unless it HAS to (unless you are really, really,
        stupid).

        I've not installed linux for a number of years and it sounds like,
        with variants like Ubuntu (sp?) things are a LOT easier than they
        used to be. I still miss Enlightnement and multiple virtual desktops.
        Leopards "spaces" is still not quite the same.

        Ah the nostalgia ...

        Cheers,
        KathyW.

        Oh, and if your boot manager claims it cannot find the linux drive
        after the windows install ... IT LIES!! Unfortunately I cannot
        remember the simple trick to get around it ...
      • Georgia Real Tours
        ... Yeah, that too. :D ... Well, you r right. If you don t tinker, you re not going to botch it. But beginners tend to have accidents, especially when
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 29, 2008
          On 2/29/08, Kathy Wheeler <kathyw@...> wrote:
          >
          > On 29/02/2008, at 4:56 PM, Georgia Real Tours wrote:
          > > Simple. If (when) you trash the install, you can literally start anew
          > > in under an hour.
          >
          > (scratches head) don't you mean when (not if) windows sh!ts itself
          > and scribbles all over the hard drive that your Linux drive is still
          > intact and operable?

          Yeah, that too. :D



          > > If you are new to Linux, you are eventually going
          > > to do something simple that toasts the install. It's natural, and
          > > part of the learning process.
          >
          > Sorry Robert, can't agree there. I've installed numerous versions of
          > Red Hat and Suse, in multiple boot situations with windows and OS2
          > Warp (before OS X [FreeBSD Unix] "came of age" ) and the only thing I
          > ever "toasted" was CDs on the poor old G3 ("Toast" CD writer ;-) .
          > Unless you do something like an rm -rf at / as root, or run
          > everything as root, you're really not that likely to do that much
          > damage. That's the whole unix/linux security model. You do not run
          > ANYTHING as root unless it HAS to (unless you are really, really,
          > stupid).

          Well, you'r right. If you don't tinker, you're not going to botch
          it. But beginners tend to have accidents, especially when
          experimenting. Thankfully, it IS safer these days where in some cases
          root isn't even an option. Still, better going in thinking
          something's going to happen and be prepared for it (and proud when it
          doesn't) than to not be prepared and it does happen. :(



          > I've not installed linux for a number of years and it sounds like,
          > with variants like Ubuntu (sp?) things are a LOT easier than they
          > used to be. I still miss Enlightnement and multiple virtual desktops.
          > Leopards "spaces" is still not quite the same.

          I looked for VMWare Player for Mac, but there doesn't seem to be one.
          However, I've heard rave reviews about Parallels
          http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/
          <http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/> and it is MUCH cheaper
          than Fusion.

          But do you know what I want? What I really, really want? Leopard to
          work on my laptop. Officially, anyway. Still too much Steve Jobs in
          the company to let that happen. ;c)



          > Oh, and if your boot manager claims it cannot find the linux drive
          > after the windows install ... IT LIES!! Unfortunately I cannot
          > remember the simple trick to get around it ...

          What, something regarding Windows LIES? Say it isn't so!

          You and I both. Last time I encountered this I just used the boot CD
          to fix it. Yuv's solution works, it's just not the easiest or safest
          (backing up the MBR is *always* recommended however). Before that, I
          think I mounted the harddrive with another install and fixed it there.
          That's going back awhile, since before getting VMWare workstation 6
          when it first came out.

          R~

          --
          Mid GA: 478-599-1300
          ATL: 678-438-6955
          garealtours.com
        • Kathy Wheeler
          ... Likewise. ... My next machine, when I *have* to replace my beloved 17 G4 Powerbook will be one of Steve s new intel based ones (well maybe by then I ll
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 29, 2008
            On 01/03/2008, at 2:26 AM, Georgia Real Tours wrote:
            > However, I've heard rave reviews about Parallels

            Likewise.

            > http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/
            > <http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/> and it is MUCH cheaper
            > than Fusion.
            >
            > But do you know what I want? What I really, really want? Leopard to
            > work on my laptop. Officially, anyway. Still too much Steve Jobs in
            > the company to let that happen. ;c)

            My "next" machine, when I *have* to replace my beloved 17" G4
            Powerbook will be one of Steve's new intel based ones (well maybe by
            then I'll be able to get a demo or second hand model ... ) and I'll
            put Linux on it as well. Dunno what I'll do about windows although I
            do need the damn thing to test things with :( VirtualPC while not
            brilliant does a reasonable if slow job under OS X without needing a
            re-boot.

            That's the main thing that irked me with multiple boot situations -
            reboot time and not being able to cut-and-paste from one os to the
            other. I know, I want too much ... just to be able to run everything
            on the same machine at the same time ... develop under my preferred
            os and check as I go on all the others ...

            After going through numerous Toshiba and Dell notebooks (mobility has
            always been a major factor, now a small power footprint is important
            too) I'm happy to pay the extra for the Apple pro line. The build
            quality and reliability is just so much better, and you don't have
            one component manufacturer blaming the other when things don't work,
            which is often what happened with diy desktop PC builds in the past,
            even expensive ones.

            Cheers,
            KathyW.
          • AYRTON
            On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 7:36 PM, Kathy Wheeler ... I use it It s so nice :-) ... It works !!! Willy Kaemena was here in Rio and he
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 29, 2008
              On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 7:36 PM, Kathy Wheeler <kathyw@...>
              wrote:

              >
              > Likewise.
              >
              > > http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/
              > > <http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/> and it is MUCH cheaper
              > > than Fusion.


              I use it It's so nice :-)


              >
              > > But do you know what I want? What I really, really want? Leopard to
              > > work on my laptop. Officially, anyway.


              It works !!!
              Willy Kaemena was here in Rio and he saw mine runnign nice and smooth

              That's the main thing that irked me with multiple boot situations -
              > reboot time and not being able to cut-and-paste from one os to the
              > other. I know, I want too much ... just to be able to run everything
              > on the same machine at the same time ... develop under my preferred
              > os and check as I go on all the others ...


              PARALLELS do that exactly the way you want Kathy.
              You can drag something from MAC OS to windows OS and vice-versa

              >
              >
              > I'm happy to pay the extra for the Apple pro line. The build
              > quality and reliability is just so much better, and you don't have
              > one component manufacturer blaming the other when things don't work,


              My powerbooks ( I have 4) works perfectly for years
              And now I'm gonna buy the new macBook PRO



              >
              > which is often what happened with diy desktop PC builds in the past,
              > even expensive ones.


              always :-)



              > Cheers,
              > KathyW.


              Cheers too
              AYRTON


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