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[OT] - Linux advice for a soon to be noob

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  • Eduardo Hutter
    I m about to do a major upgrade on my PC system and want to have dual boot between XP 32 and some version of Linux. I didn t really spent too much time
    Message 1 of 27 , Feb 24, 2008
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      I'm about to do a major upgrade on my PC system and want to have dual
      boot between XP 32 and some version of Linux. I didn't really spent too
      much time researching, just gave an overview at Ubuntu docs and forum
      and it seems to be *THE* good simple (should read noob) install and run
      - and yet with lots of room to learn as my urge to crash the system
      grows :) - with a large and supportive community.

      So, for you full or part-time Linux users: what size do you think I
      should set the partition for it on a 250g HD? The page file for XP will
      be on a RAID 0 with 2 Raptor 36G 10K disks later, right now *on just
      one* of these, and a third disk will hold the scratch disk for PS, Hugin
      and Gimp will be more likely to be my main applications in there.

      TIA,

      Eduardo
    • Sacha Griffin
      I m not sure what the latest popular filesystem is for linux, but remember, linux will be able to access your windows partitions too. You can t share swap
      Message 2 of 27 , Feb 24, 2008
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        I'm not sure what the latest popular filesystem is for linux, but remember,
        linux will be able to access your windows partitions too.

        You can't share swap partitions with linux and windows as far it's a good
        idea or possible.

        Installation of files won't be a whole lot depending on what your going to
        do. You only mentioned gimp/hugin so not any servers I would guess.

        So you won't need to create partitions for security purposes either. So you
        could probably splurge and make a 10g partition for the linux os, and 2 or 4
        gig of swap. Leaving you 235g for windows partitions.

        I'm sure you could reuse a windows partition for a photoshop scratch disk as
        well as the rest for file storage. In reality, you could probably do with a
        whole lot less.





        Sacha Griffin

        Southern Digital Solutions LLC

        http://www.southern-digital.com

        http://www.seeit360.net

        404-551-4275







        From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Eduardo Hutter
        Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:57 AM
        To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [PanoToolsNG] [OT] - Linux advice for a soon to be noob



        I'm about to do a major upgrade on my PC system and want to have dual
        boot between XP 32 and some version of Linux. I didn't really spent too
        much time researching, just gave an overview at Ubuntu docs and forum
        and it seems to be *THE* good simple (should read noob) install and run
        - and yet with lots of room to learn as my urge to crash the system
        grows :) - with a large and supportive community.

        So, for you full or part-time Linux users: what size do you think I
        should set the partition for it on a 250g HD? The page file for XP will
        be on a RAID 0 with 2 Raptor 36G 10K disks later, right now *on just
        one* of these, and a third disk will hold the scratch disk for PS, Hugin
        and Gimp will be more likely to be my main applications in there.

        TIA,

        Eduardo





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Luca Vascon
        Using more partitions on the same disk slows down the disk, afaik!
        Message 3 of 27 , Feb 24, 2008
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          Using more partitions on the same disk slows down the disk, afaik!

          Sacha Griffin ha scritto:
          >
          > I'm not sure what the latest popular filesystem is for linux, but
          > remember,
          > linux will be able to access your windows partitions too.
          >
          > You can't share swap partitions with linux and windows as far it's a good
          > idea or possible.
          >
          > Installation of files won't be a whole lot depending on what your going to
          > do. You only mentioned gimp/hugin so not any servers I would guess.
          >
          > So you won't need to create partitions for security purposes either.
          > So you
          > could probably splurge and make a 10g partition for the linux os, and
          > 2 or 4
          > gig of swap. Leaving you 235g for windows partitions.
          >
          > I'm sure you could reuse a windows partition for a photoshop scratch
          > disk as
          > well as the rest for file storage. In reality, you could probably do
          > with a
          > whole lot less.
          >
          > Sacha Griffin
          >
          > Southern Digital Solutions LLC
          >
          > http://www.southern-digital.com <http://www.southern-digital.com>
          >
          > http://www.seeit360.net <http://www.seeit360.net>
          >
          > 404-551-4275
          >
          > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
          > [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
          > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>] On
          > Behalf Of Eduardo Hutter
          > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:57 AM
          > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
          > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] [OT] - Linux advice for a soon to be noob
          >
          > I'm about to do a major upgrade on my PC system and want to have dual
          > boot between XP 32 and some version of Linux. I didn't really spent too
          > much time researching, just gave an overview at Ubuntu docs and forum
          > and it seems to be *THE* good simple (should read noob) install and run
          > - and yet with lots of room to learn as my urge to crash the system
          > grows :) - with a large and supportive community.
          >
          > So, for you full or part-time Linux users: what size do you think I
          > should set the partition for it on a 250g HD? The page file for XP will
          > be on a RAID 0 with 2 Raptor 36G 10K disks later, right now *on just
          > one* of these, and a third disk will hold the scratch disk for PS, Hugin
          > and Gimp will be more likely to be my main applications in there.
          >
          > TIA,
          >
          > Eduardo
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >
        • Sacha Griffin
          I ve never heard that one. I imagine it would depend on the exact purpose of each partition. But having swap on its own partition is a great idea. I tried that
          Message 4 of 27 , Feb 24, 2008
          • 0 Attachment
            I've never heard that one. I imagine it would depend on the exact purpose of
            each partition. But having swap on its own partition is a great idea.

            I tried that with vista, before vista crashed and burned. The vista boot
            loader is about the worst I've ever seen. Upon plugging in a usb device it
            no longer boots. Though I must double check some bios settings for that.
            Furthermore, the recovery of startup errors in vista is very poor such as
            deleting the partition table of 1 half of a striped volume. Long story
            short, don't get fancy with vista partitions/striped swaps etc.





            Sacha Griffin

            Southern Digital Solutions LLC

            http://www.southern-digital.com

            http://www.seeit360.net

            404-551-4275







            From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of Luca Vascon
            Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 1:40 PM
            To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] [OT] - Linux advice for a soon to be noob



            Using more partitions on the same disk slows down the disk, afaik!

            Sacha Griffin ha scritto:
            >
            > I'm not sure what the latest popular filesystem is for linux, but
            > remember,
            > linux will be able to access your windows partitions too.
            >
            > You can't share swap partitions with linux and windows as far it's a good
            > idea or possible.
            >
            > Installation of files won't be a whole lot depending on what your going to
            > do. You only mentioned gimp/hugin so not any servers I would guess.
            >
            > So you won't need to create partitions for security purposes either.
            > So you
            > could probably splurge and make a 10g partition for the linux os, and
            > 2 or 4
            > gig of swap. Leaving you 235g for windows partitions.
            >
            > I'm sure you could reuse a windows partition for a photoshop scratch
            > disk as
            > well as the rest for file storage. In reality, you could probably do
            > with a
            > whole lot less.
            >
            > Sacha Griffin
            >
            > Southern Digital Solutions LLC
            >
            > http://www.southern-digital.com <http://www.southern-digital.com>
            >
            > http://www.seeit360.net <http://www.seeit360.net>
            >
            > 404-551-4275
            >
            > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
            > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
            > [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>

            > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>] On
            > Behalf Of Eduardo Hutter
            > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:57 AM
            > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
            <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] [OT] - Linux advice for a soon to be noob
            >
            > I'm about to do a major upgrade on my PC system and want to have dual
            > boot between XP 32 and some version of Linux. I didn't really spent too
            > much time researching, just gave an overview at Ubuntu docs and forum
            > and it seems to be *THE* good simple (should read noob) install and run
            > - and yet with lots of room to learn as my urge to crash the system
            > grows :) - with a large and supportive community.
            >
            > So, for you full or part-time Linux users: what size do you think I
            > should set the partition for it on a 250g HD? The page file for XP will
            > be on a RAID 0 with 2 Raptor 36G 10K disks later, right now *on just
            > one* of these, and a third disk will hold the scratch disk for PS, Hugin
            > and Gimp will be more likely to be my main applications in there.
            >
            > TIA,
            >
            > Eduardo
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Yuval Levy
            Hi Eduardo, yes, Ubuntu is the way to go. ... some important information is missing to make an informed recommendation: 1) where is your data? 2) how do you
            Message 5 of 27 , Feb 24, 2008
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              Hi Eduardo,

              yes, Ubuntu is the way to go.

              Eduardo Hutter wrote:
              > So, for you full or part-time Linux users: what size do you think I
              > should set the partition for it on a 250g HD? The page file for XP will
              > be on a RAID 0 with 2 Raptor 36G 10K disks later, right now *on just
              > one* of these, and a third disk will hold the scratch disk for PS, Hugin
              > and Gimp will be more likely to be my main applications in there.

              some important information is missing to make an informed recommendation:
              1) where is your data?
              2) how do you intend to share your time (and data) between the two OS?

              If the 250 GB drive is system + data, I would suggest allocating 30GB to
              Windows, 30 GB to Linux, a sufficient amount to a Linux SWAP partition,
              and the rest to data. As a desktop user, unless you have specific needs,
              don't bother with further partitioning of Linux.

              Windows can't read Linux file systems natively. Linux can read/write
              both FAT32 and NTFS. NTFS is a safe choice for the data partition to
              access it from both systems - you will need to install Ubuntu's ntfs-3g
              package (start a terminal and type "sudo apt-get install ntfs-3g"). A
              safer choice would be FAT32, but it would limit your file size to 2GB or
              less. The best choice is to have the data on the network. With
              Giga-Ethernet you can stitch images from the network drive with no
              significant speed penalty.

              If you need further detail, feel free to contact me off-list.

              Yuv
            • Sebastien Perez-Duarte
              ... There are good applications to read ext2 (and ext3) in windows. Since the specifications of ext2 are published (and not reverse-engineered like NTFS) I
              Message 6 of 27 , Feb 24, 2008
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                On Mon, Feb 25, 2008 at 12:57 AM, Yuval Levy <yahoo06@...> wrote:
                > Windows can't read Linux file systems natively. Linux can read/write
                > both FAT32 and NTFS. NTFS is a safe choice for the data partition to
                > access it from both systems

                There are good applications to read ext2 (and ext3) in windows. Since
                the specifications of ext2 are published (and not reverse-engineered
                like NTFS) I would feel much more confident in using ext2 as the
                shared data partition and installing the ext2 driver in windows:

                http://www.fs-driver.org/

                Cheers,

                Seb
              • Luca Vascon
                my experience for a very old laptop that was said to be dead is: 30/40 minutes to install the OS and then, with a totally new OS in my hand it took a matter of
                Message 7 of 27 , Feb 25, 2008
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                  my experience for a very old laptop that was said to be dead is:
                  30/40 minutes to install the OS and then, with a totally new OS in my
                  hand it took a matter of seconds to connect it to whatever wireless network.
                  I hate the idea to have to learn line commands etc, but for a normal old
                  PC use, EVERYTHING was ready and preinstalled.
                  I really had to do NOTHING, I was ready to navigate internet, use
                  openoffice, Gimp and ALL basic stuff.
                  Ubunto gets 5stars from me. If only the install of other application was
                  on a doubleclick it could get 6stars out of5 and could become my primary
                  OS.
                  ;-P

                  Yuval Levy ha scritto:
                  >
                  > Hi Eduardo,
                  >
                  > yes, Ubuntu is the way to go.
                  >
                  > Eduardo Hutter wrote:
                  > > So, for you full or part-time Linux users: what size do you think I
                  > > should set the partition for it on a 250g HD? The page file for XP will
                  > > be on a RAID 0 with 2 Raptor 36G 10K disks later, right now *on just
                  > > one* of these, and a third disk will hold the scratch disk for PS,
                  > Hugin
                  > > and Gimp will be more likely to be my main applications in there.
                  >
                  > some important information is missing to make an informed recommendation:
                  > 1) where is your data?
                  > 2) how do you intend to share your time (and data) between the two OS?
                  >
                  > If the 250 GB drive is system + data, I would suggest allocating 30GB to
                  > Windows, 30 GB to Linux, a sufficient amount to a Linux SWAP partition,
                  > and the rest to data. As a desktop user, unless you have specific needs,
                  > don't bother with further partitioning of Linux.
                  >
                  > Windows can't read Linux file systems natively. Linux can read/write
                  > both FAT32 and NTFS. NTFS is a safe choice for the data partition to
                  > access it from both systems - you will need to install Ubuntu's ntfs-3g
                  > package (start a terminal and type "sudo apt-get install ntfs-3g"). A
                  > safer choice would be FAT32, but it would limit your file size to 2GB or
                  > less. The best choice is to have the data on the network. With
                  > Giga-Ethernet you can stitch images from the network drive with no
                  > significant speed penalty.
                  >
                  > If you need further detail, feel free to contact me off-list.
                  >
                  > Yuv
                  >
                  >
                • Luca Vascon
                  Vista is a real pain in the ass!!! Yes, it depends on partition purpose. When the system or the software is loading and writing things (always) it is using C
                  Message 8 of 27 , Feb 25, 2008
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                    Vista is a real pain in the ass!!!
                    Yes, it depends on partition purpose.
                    When the system or the software is loading and writing things (always)
                    it is using C drive. If you give it a swap partition called D, it is
                    writing the highest amount of things on D, but still using C to read and
                    write... the phisic disc is one, so, phisically the heads are doing a
                    double job. I think the speed is not lowered by 50%, but somehow it is
                    slower than having 2 HD.
                    If C is divided in 2 or 3 hosting, let's say, Linux and Windows, the
                    "other" OS partition is unused by the actual OS you are running, if not
                    unvisible at all, so no slowing down.
                    On the laptop I always use 2 partition, one for all OS and software, the
                    other for datas and scratch. This allows a fast recover if something
                    goes wrong.
                    I'm planning a new PC to resuscitate my "big" one that is going to crash.
                    I accept suggestions...
                    I was going to:
                    4HD 250gb in striping as working area and swapping
                    3HD 320gb in raid5 as storage
                    1HD like a fast raptor 64gb for system and software. is it worth? Or
                    better an old Barracuda 160 sata1 I've hanging around?

                    Motherboard?? one that can handle 2 raids together.
                    CPU a good trusty Core2 like 6700
                    4gb DDR2-800
                    A cheap nVidia PCI-E card? a PCI Matrox?

                    Yuv!
                    Help! Too many blue screens today!!


                    Sacha Griffin ha scritto:
                    >
                    > I've never heard that one. I imagine it would depend on the exact
                    > purpose of
                    > each partition. But having swap on its own partition is a great idea.
                    >
                    > I tried that with vista, before vista crashed and burned. The vista boot
                    > loader is about the worst I've ever seen. Upon plugging in a usb device it
                    > no longer boots. Though I must double check some bios settings for that.
                    > Furthermore, the recovery of startup errors in vista is very poor such as
                    > deleting the partition table of 1 half of a striped volume. Long story
                    > short, don't get fancy with vista partitions/striped swaps etc.
                    >
                    > Sacha Griffin
                    >
                    > Southern Digital Solutions LLC
                    >
                    > http://www.southern-digital.com <http://www.southern-digital.com>
                    >
                    > http://www.seeit360.net <http://www.seeit360.net>
                    >
                    > 404-551-4275
                    >
                    > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                    > Behalf Of Luca Vascon
                    > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 1:40 PM
                    > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] [OT] - Linux advice for a soon to be noob
                    >
                    > Using more partitions on the same disk slows down the disk, afaik!
                    >
                    > Sacha Griffin ha scritto:
                    > >
                    > > I'm not sure what the latest popular filesystem is for linux, but
                    > > remember,
                    > > linux will be able to access your windows partitions too.
                    > >
                    > > You can't share swap partitions with linux and windows as far it's a
                    > good
                    > > idea or possible.
                    > >
                    > > Installation of files won't be a whole lot depending on what your
                    > going to
                    > > do. You only mentioned gimp/hugin so not any servers I would guess.
                    > >
                    > > So you won't need to create partitions for security purposes either.
                    > > So you
                    > > could probably splurge and make a 10g partition for the linux os, and
                    > > 2 or 4
                    > > gig of swap. Leaving you 235g for windows partitions.
                    > >
                    > > I'm sure you could reuse a windows partition for a photoshop scratch
                    > > disk as
                    > > well as the rest for file storage. In reality, you could probably do
                    > > with a
                    > > whole lot less.
                    > >
                    > > Sacha Griffin
                    > >
                    > > Southern Digital Solutions LLC
                    > >
                    > > http://www.southern-digital.com <http://www.southern-digital.com>
                    > <http://www.southern-digital.com <http://www.southern-digital.com>>
                    > >
                    > > http://www.seeit360.net <http://www.seeit360.net>
                    > <http://www.seeit360.net <http://www.seeit360.net>>
                    > >
                    > > 404-551-4275
                    > >
                    > > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
                    >
                    > > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>] On
                    > > Behalf Of Eduardo Hutter
                    > > Sent: Sunday, February 24, 2008 11:57 AM
                    > > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                    > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] [OT] - Linux advice for a soon to be noob
                    > >
                    > > I'm about to do a major upgrade on my PC system and want to have dual
                    > > boot between XP 32 and some version of Linux. I didn't really spent too
                    > > much time researching, just gave an overview at Ubuntu docs and forum
                    > > and it seems to be *THE* good simple (should read noob) install and run
                    > > - and yet with lots of room to learn as my urge to crash the system
                    > > grows :) - with a large and supportive community.
                    > >
                    > > So, for you full or part-time Linux users: what size do you think I
                    > > should set the partition for it on a 250g HD? The page file for XP will
                    > > be on a RAID 0 with 2 Raptor 36G 10K disks later, right now *on just
                    > > one* of these, and a third disk will hold the scratch disk for PS, Hugin
                    > > and Gimp will be more likely to be my main applications in there.
                    > >
                    > > TIA,
                    > >
                    > > Eduardo
                    > >
                    > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >
                    >
                  • Yuval Levy
                    ... hasta la vista, babe =8^D ...
                    Message 9 of 27 , Feb 25, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Luca Vascon wrote:
                      > Vista is a real pain in the ass!!!

                      hasta la vista, babe =8^D


                      > 4HD 250gb in striping as working area and swapping
                      > 3HD 320gb in raid5 as storage
                      > 1HD like a fast raptor 64gb for system and software. is it worth? Or
                      > better an old Barracuda 160 sata1 I've hanging around?

                      <http://panospace.wordpress.com/2008/02/25/space-the-final-frontier/>
                    • Georgia Real Tours
                      Hi Eduardo, ... Good for you! I ve basically done the same. ... Echoing other sentiments, I also suggest Ubuntu for beginners. Another option is gOS from
                      Message 10 of 27 , Feb 26, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Eduardo,

                        On 2/24/08, Eduardo Hutter <admForum@...> wrote:

                        >
                        > I'm about to do a major upgrade on my PC system and want to have dual
                        > boot between XP 32 and some version of Linux.

                        Good for you! I've basically done the same.


                        > I didn't really spent too
                        > much time researching, just gave an overview at Ubuntu docs and forum
                        > and it seems to be *THE* good simple (should read noob) install and run
                        > - and yet with lots of room to learn as my urge to crash the system
                        > grows :) - with a large and supportive community.

                        Echoing other sentiments, I also suggest Ubuntu for beginners.
                        Another option is gOS from http://www.thinkgos.com which is a distro
                        based on Ubuntu. All of them come with everything you need as a
                        beginner with a standard installation. Anything else you need can
                        easily be downloaded and installed. AFAIK, the Gimp is a default
                        install, as is OpenOffice.org. Further, I cannot remember offhand
                        which softwares I've purchased for pano work, but I do know that I
                        specifically targetted all the ones I could find that offer a Linux
                        version.

                        For support concerns, to complement any distro-centric forum or email
                        list, consider joining a LUG (Linux User Group), if not in person then
                        at least via an active mailing list. I belong to ALE (Atlanta Linux
                        Enthusiasts at http://www.ale.org/ ) but haven't been to an actual
                        meeting in years. The list is very active and helpful. You probably
                        have one nearby; http://www.mrlug.org for instance.



                        > So, for you full or part-time Linux users: what size do you think I
                        > should set the partition for it on a 250g HD? The page file for XP will
                        > be on a RAID 0 with 2 Raptor 36G 10K disks later, right now *on just
                        > one* of these, and a third disk will hold the scratch disk for PS, Hugin
                        > and Gimp will be more likely to be my main applications in there.

                        If you can, PLEASE for all that is love and holy, put Linux its own
                        hardddrive. Don't get fancy with raids, mirrors, or crazy
                        partitioning. And install XP *FIRST*!! When you get experience, then
                        fool around with the advanced stuff.

                        Now for my unexpected advice: pony up for VMWare Workstation 6. It is
                        a lifesaver, a godsend, and 'life-changing' in its usefulness. I
                        purchased the Linux version and have several Windows VMs stashed under
                        the Ubuntu installation on my laptop's second harddrive. Ubuntu is on
                        a 50GB partition which includes a particularly small swap partition
                        (just the standard from installation). In addition to the Windows VMs
                        I also have a plethora of different Linux distribution VMs to test out
                        which ones I like (such as E17 and Sabayon.) Hey, within 5 minutes of
                        downloading the ISO or Live Disk I have a working VM to play with. I
                        *love* it. And nothing seems to make a Vista user more envious. Mac
                        users merely hate me. ::evil grin::

                        Another benefit of Workstation is the ability to make VMs that run on
                        VMWare Player. He had an old W2K machine that was biting the dust. I
                        tossed Ubuntu on it a year or so ago (dual-boot) and locked out the
                        booting to Windows. He still has access to all his data. Recently,
                        however, in his dealings as a federal contractor, the DoD sent him to
                        an astonishingly insecure (yet bizarrely secured insecurely) website
                        that required Internet Explorer. I set up a very basic W2K VM with
                        256MB RAM that only had the full updates and Internet Explorer and
                        Firefox. Nothing else. This VM is running under Kubuntu 7.10 on
                        VMWare Player. Sure, it pokes along on his computer, but keep in mind
                        his computer is maxed out at 512MB.... I built it 5 years ago out of
                        spare parts and an old W2K license I had.

                        One last benefit: imagine having at your fingertips on demand a
                        machine specifically set up and dedicated to a purpose. That's a VM.
                        Want a pure image-editing machine, with just the icons and software
                        you want and need to be most efficient? How about a machine that just
                        does music or games? ;c) And as complicated as our craft is, how
                        about one that is designed to get you from your camera to your website
                        as efficiently as possible, *AND* you can suspend it and pick right
                        back up where you left off in just moments? (Don't do that _during_
                        stitching unless you want to risk problems.)

                        I'm not a Linux expert, by the way, since my primary machine still
                        needs to be Windows XP. However, I'm looking forward to having the
                        having a VM hypervisor built into the hardware so I can run any OS I
                        want, and many simultaneously. *That's* when I'll finally get to use
                        Linux as my primary OS. ;c)

                        Virtualization is the future, and so is Linux. Welcome to the revolution.

                        Robert~
                        --
                        Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                        ATL: 678-438-6955
                        garealtours.com
                      • Andrew Crawford
                        ... There is no reason for Mac users to hate you. They can do the same thing. VMWare also makes a virtualization product for MacOS X called Fusion. It can
                        Message 11 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Georgia Real Tours wrote:
                          > I also have a plethora of different Linux distribution VMs to test out
                          > which ones I like (such as E17 and Sabayon.) Hey, within 5 minutes of
                          > downloading the ISO or Live Disk I have a working VM to play with. I
                          > *love* it. And nothing seems to make a Vista user more envious. Mac
                          > users merely hate me. ::evil grin::

                          > Robert~

                          There is no reason for Mac users to hate you. They can do the same
                          thing. VMWare also makes a virtualization product for MacOS X called
                          Fusion. It can run VMWare Workstation VMs and appliances directly.

                          Andrew Crawford
                        • Eduardo Hutter
                          Hello Luca! Yes, that s why I have separate disks for swap (at least for XP, as now I know) and photoshop scratch disk, this one on a 80G which is my system +
                          Message 12 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
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                            Hello Luca!

                            Yes, that's why I have separate disks for swap (at least for XP, as now
                            I know) and photoshop scratch disk, this one on a 80G which is my system
                            + data right now.

                            Eduardo

                            * Luca Vascon wrote, On 24/02/2008 2:40 PM:
                            >
                            > Using more partitions on the same disk slows down the disk, afaik!
                          • Sacha Griffin
                            Another good thing with VMware.. You can run both operating systems simultaneously, and network them together. I was using linux virtualized as an smb file
                            Message 13 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
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                              Another good thing with VMware.. You can run both operating systems
                              simultaneously, and network them together.

                              I was using linux virtualized as an smb file server but eventually gave it
                              up due to convenience.



                              With vmware, you can run your hugin, in a VERY small linux install, save
                              everything to a windows share, and when you're done, just shut it down, all
                              from xp/vista.

                              Or vise versa, if you prefer. do your whatever you do in xp/vista in a
                              vmware session running on linux.

                              A good thing with vmware, you can try out linux , any distro in a flash, and
                              then delete it all when you're done. Plus you can get some linux server and
                              networking chops with only one computer.



                              I've been running servers and supporting linux admins for the last 8 years
                              but my gui photo os is vista. for convenience.

                              For servers, I wouldn't even consider anything but linux.

                              I went to the ale meeting many many years ago.

                              It was mostly an advertising venue for vendors. L

                              There was a 2600 club in perimeter mall. I wonder if that's still around.
                              That's the fun stuff.





                              Sacha Griffin

                              Southern Digital Solutions LLC

                              http://www.southern-digital.com

                              http://www.seeit360.net

                              404-551-4275









                              From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                              Behalf Of Georgia Real Tours
                              Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 2:34 AM
                              To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] [OT] - Linux advice for a soon to be noob



                              Hi Eduardo,

                              On 2/24/08, Eduardo Hutter <admForum@...
                              <mailto:admForum%40brasmontreal.net> > wrote:

                              >
                              > I'm about to do a major upgrade on my PC system and want to have dual
                              > boot between XP 32 and some version of Linux.

                              Good for you! I've basically done the same.

                              > I didn't really spent too
                              > much time researching, just gave an overview at Ubuntu docs and forum
                              > and it seems to be *THE* good simple (should read noob) install and run
                              > - and yet with lots of room to learn as my urge to crash the system
                              > grows :) - with a large and supportive community.

                              Echoing other sentiments, I also suggest Ubuntu for beginners.
                              Another option is gOS from http://www.thinkgos.com which is a distro
                              based on Ubuntu. All of them come with everything you need as a
                              beginner with a standard installation. Anything else you need can
                              easily be downloaded and installed. AFAIK, the Gimp is a default
                              install, as is OpenOffice.org. Further, I cannot remember offhand
                              which softwares I've purchased for pano work, but I do know that I
                              specifically targetted all the ones I could find that offer a Linux
                              version.

                              For support concerns, to complement any distro-centric forum or email
                              list, consider joining a LUG (Linux User Group), if not in person then
                              at least via an active mailing list. I belong to ALE (Atlanta Linux
                              Enthusiasts at http://www.ale.org/ ) but haven't been to an actual
                              meeting in years. The list is very active and helpful. You probably
                              have one nearby; http://www.mrlug.org for instance.

                              > So, for you full or part-time Linux users: what size do you think I
                              > should set the partition for it on a 250g HD? The page file for XP will
                              > be on a RAID 0 with 2 Raptor 36G 10K disks later, right now *on just
                              > one* of these, and a third disk will hold the scratch disk for PS, Hugin
                              > and Gimp will be more likely to be my main applications in there.

                              If you can, PLEASE for all that is love and holy, put Linux its own
                              hardddrive. Don't get fancy with raids, mirrors, or crazy
                              partitioning. And install XP *FIRST*!! When you get experience, then
                              fool around with the advanced stuff.

                              Now for my unexpected advice: pony up for VMWare Workstation 6. It is
                              a lifesaver, a godsend, and 'life-changing' in its usefulness. I
                              purchased the Linux version and have several Windows VMs stashed under
                              the Ubuntu installation on my laptop's second harddrive. Ubuntu is on
                              a 50GB partition which includes a particularly small swap partition
                              (just the standard from installation). In addition to the Windows VMs
                              I also have a plethora of different Linux distribution VMs to test out
                              which ones I like (such as E17 and Sabayon.) Hey, within 5 minutes of
                              downloading the ISO or Live Disk I have a working VM to play with. I
                              *love* it. And nothing seems to make a Vista user more envious. Mac
                              users merely hate me. ::evil grin::

                              Another benefit of Workstation is the ability to make VMs that run on
                              VMWare Player. He had an old W2K machine that was biting the dust. I
                              tossed Ubuntu on it a year or so ago (dual-boot) and locked out the
                              booting to Windows. He still has access to all his data. Recently,
                              however, in his dealings as a federal contractor, the DoD sent him to
                              an astonishingly insecure (yet bizarrely secured insecurely) website
                              that required Internet Explorer. I set up a very basic W2K VM with
                              256MB RAM that only had the full updates and Internet Explorer and
                              Firefox. Nothing else. This VM is running under Kubuntu 7.10 on
                              VMWare Player. Sure, it pokes along on his computer, but keep in mind
                              his computer is maxed out at 512MB.... I built it 5 years ago out of
                              spare parts and an old W2K license I had.

                              One last benefit: imagine having at your fingertips on demand a
                              machine specifically set up and dedicated to a purpose. That's a VM.
                              Want a pure image-editing machine, with just the icons and software
                              you want and need to be most efficient? How about a machine that just
                              does music or games? ;c) And as complicated as our craft is, how
                              about one that is designed to get you from your camera to your website
                              as efficiently as possible, *AND* you can suspend it and pick right
                              back up where you left off in just moments? (Don't do that _during_
                              stitching unless you want to risk problems.)

                              I'm not a Linux expert, by the way, since my primary machine still
                              needs to be Windows XP. However, I'm looking forward to having the
                              having a VM hypervisor built into the hardware so I can run any OS I
                              want, and many simultaneously. *That's* when I'll finally get to use
                              Linux as my primary OS. ;c)

                              Virtualization is the future, and so is Linux. Welcome to the revolution.

                              Robert~
                              --
                              Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                              ATL: 678-438-6955
                              garealtours.com





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Eduardo Hutter
                              Hi Yuval ... Just like you said the 250 GB will hold both system + storage. The scratch disk will also serve as storage. It s a 80 GB, my system disk right
                              Message 14 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
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                                Hi Yuval

                                * Yuval Levy wrote, On 24/02/2008 7:57 PM:

                                > (...)
                                > some important information is missing to make an informed
                                > recommendation: 1) where is your data? 2) how do you intend to share
                                > your time (and data) between the two OS?
                                >
                                > If the 250 GB drive is system + data, I would suggest allocating 30GB
                                > to Windows, 30 GB to Linux, a sufficient amount to a Linux SWAP
                                > partition, and the rest to data. As a desktop user, unless you have
                                > specific needs, don't bother with further partitioning of Linux.

                                Just like you said the 250 GB will hold both system + storage. The
                                scratch disk will also serve as storage. It's a 80 GB, my system disk
                                right now. I could set the Linux swap partition on it... how much would
                                be a "sufficient amount"?

                                >
                                > Windows can't read Linux file systems natively. Linux can read/write
                                > both FAT32 and NTFS. NTFS is a safe choice for the data partition to
                                > access it from both systems - you will need to install Ubuntu's
                                > ntfs-3g package (start a terminal and type "sudo apt-get install
                                > ntfs-3g"). A safer choice would be FAT32, but it would limit your
                                > file size to 2GB or less.

                                Sebastien gave a good insight about it with Ext2:

                                "There are good applications to read ext2 (and ext3) in windows. Since
                                the specifications of ext2 are published (and not reverse-engineered
                                like NTFS) I would feel much more confident in using ext2 as the
                                shared data partition and installing the ext2 driver in windows:
                                http://www.fs-driver.org/ <http://www.fs-driver.org/> "

                                Or VMWare pointed by Robert but that would be for later since my budget
                                is running tight.
                                <http://www.fs-driver.org/>
                                The best choice is to have the data on the
                                > network. With Giga-Ethernet you can stitch images from the network
                                > drive with no significant speed penalty.

                                Yes, that's a good idea and I'm thinking about putting togheter a cheap
                                box with the parts left from my current machine for that.
                                >
                                > If you need further detail, feel free to contact me off-list.

                                Thanks! :)

                                Eduardo
                              • Eduardo Hutter
                                XP will still be my main OS at least for now. Can t really tell about percentages for one or another.
                                Message 15 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
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                                  XP will still be my main OS at least for now. Can't really tell about
                                  percentages for one or another.

                                  * Yuval Levy wrote, On 24/02/2008 7:57 PM:
                                  >
                                  > 2) how do you intend to share your time (and data) between the two OS?
                                • Eduardo Hutter
                                  Thanks Sebastien, I will definately keep that in mind. ... Eduardo
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
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                                    Thanks Sebastien, I will definately keep that in mind.

                                    * Sebastien Perez-Duarte wrote, On 25/02/2008 3:25 AM:
                                    > There are good applications to read ext2 (and ext3) in windows. Since
                                    > the specifications of ext2 are published (and not reverse-engineered
                                    > like NTFS) I would feel much more confident in using ext2 as the
                                    > shared data partition and installing the ext2 driver in windows:
                                    >
                                    > http://www.fs-driver.org/ <http://www.fs-driver.org/>

                                    Eduardo
                                  • Eduardo Hutter
                                    Heelo Sacha, ... But I could set the disk (or disks, like I said I ll set 2 Raptor 36 GB 10K on a RAID 0 later) used for XP page file to be used by Linux also
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
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                                      Heelo Sacha,

                                      * Sacha Griffin wrote, On 24/02/2008 2:12 PM:
                                      > You can't share swap partitions with linux and windows as far it's a good
                                      > idea or possible.
                                      But I could set the disk (or disks, like I said I'll set 2 Raptor 36 GB
                                      10K on a RAID 0 later) used for XP page file to be used by Linux also as
                                      far as I don't have both systems running simultaneously (i. e., using
                                      VMWare).

                                      >
                                      > Installation of files won't be a whole lot depending on what your going to
                                      > do. You only mentioned gimp/hugin so not any servers I would guess.
                                      You are right, no servers.
                                      >
                                      > So you won't need to create partitions for security purposes either.
                                      > So you
                                      > could probably splurge and make a 10g partition for the linux os, and
                                      > 2 or 4
                                      > gig of swap. Leaving you 235g for windows partitions.
                                      >
                                      > I'm sure you could reuse a windows partition for a photoshop scratch
                                      > disk as
                                      > well as the rest for file storage. In reality, you could probably do
                                      > with a
                                      > whole lot less.

                                      The scratch will be set on the disk I'm using as system right now,
                                      plenty of space for that + storage.


                                      Cheers,

                                      Eduardo
                                    • Eduardo Hutter
                                      Hi Robert! ... Why is that? I mean, about the Linux on its own hd. My original setup would be that 250 GB holding system (XP and Linux) and data, the second
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi Robert!

                                        > (...)
                                        >
                                        > If you can, PLEASE for all that is love and holy, put Linux its own
                                        > hardddrive. Don't get fancy with raids, mirrors, or crazy
                                        > partitioning. And install XP *FIRST*!! When you get experience, then
                                        > fool around with the advanced stuff.

                                        Why is that? I mean, about the Linux on its own hd. My original setup
                                        would be that 250 GB holding system (XP and Linux) and data, the second
                                        hd (a 80 GB which is my main disk right now) set as scratch disk for
                                        Photoshop and storage and a third one for XP swap + storage (later 2 of
                                        them on a RAID 0) BUT I could change all that. I'm still trying to
                                        figure out whats going to be better, all framed by a tight budget.
                                        Maybe set that Raptor 36 GB 10K rpm as system (XP), a Linux partition
                                        (say, 30 G, I don't think I will need more than that) on the 80 G with
                                        PS scratch plus the 250 G holding Linux and XP swap partitions and
                                        storage. How that works?

                                        >
                                        > Now for my unexpected advice: pony up for VMWare Workstation 6. It is
                                        > a lifesaver, a godsend, and 'life-changing' in its usefulness
                                        >
                                        > (...)
                                        >
                                        > One last benefit: imagine having at your fingertips on demand a
                                        > machine specifically set up and dedicated to a purpose. That's a VM.

                                        That looks *very* interesting and I will keep an eye on that too.
                                        Budget concerns... ;)


                                        cheers

                                        Eduardo
                                      • Sacha Griffin
                                        No, as far as I know. Windows swaps are created on volumes, comprised of a formatted NTFS/Fat32 partition. Linux swaps are created on partition without that
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
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                                          No, as far as I know.

                                          Windows swaps are created on volumes, comprised of a formatted NTFS/Fat32
                                          partition.

                                          Linux swaps are created on partition without that extra file system
                                          overhead.





                                          Sacha Griffin

                                          Southern Digital Solutions LLC

                                          http://www.southern-digital.com

                                          http://www.seeit360.net

                                          404-551-4275







                                          From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                                          Behalf Of Eduardo Hutter
                                          Sent: Wednesday, February 27, 2008 2:30 PM
                                          To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [PanoToolsNG] [OT] - Linux advice for a soon to be noob



                                          Heelo Sacha,

                                          * Sacha Griffin wrote, On 24/02/2008 2:12 PM:
                                          > You can't share swap partitions with linux and windows as far it's a good
                                          > idea or possible.
                                          But I could set the disk (or disks, like I said I'll set 2 Raptor 36 GB
                                          10K on a RAID 0 later) used for XP page file to be used by Linux also as
                                          far as I don't have both systems running simultaneously (i. e., using
                                          VMWare).

                                          >
                                          > Installation of files won't be a whole lot depending on what your going to
                                          > do. You only mentioned gimp/hugin so not any servers I would guess.
                                          You are right, no servers.
                                          >
                                          > So you won't need to create partitions for security purposes either.
                                          > So you
                                          > could probably splurge and make a 10g partition for the linux os, and
                                          > 2 or 4
                                          > gig of swap. Leaving you 235g for windows partitions.
                                          >
                                          > I'm sure you could reuse a windows partition for a photoshop scratch
                                          > disk as
                                          > well as the rest for file storage. In reality, you could probably do
                                          > with a
                                          > whole lot less.

                                          The scratch will be set on the disk I'm using as system right now,
                                          plenty of space for that + storage.

                                          Cheers,

                                          Eduardo





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Yuval Levy
                                          Hi Eduardo, ... usual reccomandation for Linux swap used to be twice the system memory, which is still a good rule of thumb. More information:
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Hi Eduardo,

                                            Eduardo Hutter wrote:
                                            > Just like you said the 250 GB will hold both system + storage. The
                                            > scratch disk will also serve as storage. It's a 80 GB, my system disk
                                            > right now. I could set the Linux swap partition on it... how much would
                                            > be a "sufficient amount"?

                                            usual reccomandation for Linux swap used to be twice the system memory,
                                            which is still a good rule of thumb. More information:
                                            <http://www.linux.com/feature/121916>

                                            @Sacha: Linux swap can also be a file (even though it is not recommended
                                            because of file system overhead).


                                            >> Windows can't read Linux file systems natively.
                                            >
                                            > Sebastien gave a good insight about it with Ext2:
                                            >
                                            > "There are good applications to read ext2 (and ext3) in windows.

                                            sure, these are added drivers, not native to the OS.


                                            > I would feel much more confident in using ext2 as the
                                            > shared data partition and installing the ext2 driver in windows

                                            It's a matter of feeling/preference. Considering that you will be using
                                            mostly Windows, I still recommend a Windows native file system.

                                            Giving Windows ext2 access opens the ext2 file system to vulnerability
                                            from all the malaware that often plagues Windows.

                                            The driver recommended by Sebastien, like all ext2 Windows drivers known
                                            to me, does not respect ext2 permissioning and voids one of the most
                                            effective safety nets of Linux.


                                            > Or VMWare pointed by Robert but that would be for later since my budget
                                            > is running tight.

                                            For most application, the free VMWare player is more than enough.

                                            Yuv
                                          • Yuval Levy
                                            ... yes, why? Installing Windows after Linux will make Linux *temporarily* not bootable and unexperienced users are afraid of that. The solution is simple:
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Feb 27, 2008
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Eduardo Hutter wrote:
                                              > Hi Robert!
                                              >
                                              >> (...)
                                              >>
                                              >> If you can, PLEASE for all that is love and holy, put Linux its own
                                              >> hardddrive. Don't get fancy with raids, mirrors, or crazy
                                              >> partitioning. And install XP *FIRST*!! When you get experience, then
                                              >> fool around with the advanced stuff.
                                              >
                                              > Why is that?

                                              yes, why?

                                              Installing Windows after Linux will make Linux *temporarily* not
                                              bootable and unexperienced users are afraid of that.

                                              The solution is simple: backup the MBR before installing Windows. Then
                                              boot with a live CD like the one used to install ubuntu and restore the
                                              MBR. Edit the boot entries to add Windows to the menu.


                                              > I mean, about the Linux on its own hd.

                                              no need to quarantine Linux, it coexist with Windows on the same HD.

                                              If I was you I would use the new HD as scratch disk - because new drives
                                              with perpendicular writing have better sustained transfer rate (STR),
                                              while the access time (AC) has not changed much. And I'd buy a 500GB
                                              disk (best price/GB ratio *and* perpendicular writing).

                                              If you buy a raptor, use it as system disk, not as scratch disk. Also
                                              not for the Linux Swap. Scratch disk and swap benefits from STR more
                                              than AC - large chunks of data are transferred at once.

                                              Raptor(SATA-I, 10K RPM): AC(write): 4.6ms STR:84MB/s
                                              Deskstar 7K100 (SATA-II, 7.2K RPM): AC(write): 9.2ms STR:85MB/s
                                              For those who have money: Seagate Cheetah(SCSI,15K RPM): 3.9ms / 125MB/s

                                              all info from manufacturer's data sheets. similar technology from other
                                              manufacturers has similar performance.

                                              operating system, like database applications, benefit from AC more than
                                              STR - large quantity of small chunks, often concurrent.


                                              Yuv
                                            • Georgia Real Tours
                                              ... Andrew, It was a joke. ;c) Mac lovers frequently name the interface as one reason they love their computer. Prior to X OS, Mac users also had to suffer
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Feb 28, 2008
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                On 2/27/08, Andrew Crawford <yahoo@...> wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Georgia Real Tours wrote:
                                                > > I also have a plethora of different Linux distribution VMs to test out
                                                > > which ones I like (such as E17 and Sabayon.) Hey, within 5 minutes of
                                                > > downloading the ISO or Live Disk I have a working VM to play with. I
                                                > > *love* it. And nothing seems to make a Vista user more envious. Mac
                                                > > users merely hate me. ::evil grin::
                                                >
                                                > > Robert~
                                                >
                                                > There is no reason for Mac users to hate you. They can do the same
                                                > thing. VMWare also makes a virtualization product for MacOS X called
                                                > Fusion. It can run VMWare Workstation VMs and appliances directly.
                                                >
                                                > Andrew Crawford

                                                Andrew,

                                                It was a joke. ;c)

                                                Mac lovers frequently name the interface as one reason they love their
                                                computer. Prior to X OS, Mac users also had to suffer from a lack of
                                                software choices. VMWare allows not only numerous interfaces but also
                                                vast software choices. Of course, having Fusion now gives Mac users
                                                the same ability to use their extremely expensive computers to run the
                                                same operating systems as their much-less expensive counterparts.

                                                Now why in the world would they want to turn a $3,000 laptop into a
                                                $300 laptop? ;cD

                                                Cheers,
                                                Robert~

                                                P.S. - Thanks for bringing up Fusion.. I had forgotten about it when I
                                                wrote the post.

                                                --
                                                Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                                                ATL: 678-438-6955
                                                garealtours.com
                                              • Georgia Real Tours
                                                ... Simple. If (when) you trash the install, you can literally start anew in under an hour. Also, it is very easy and quick to test and evaluate different
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Feb 28, 2008
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  On 2/27/08, Yuval Levy <yahoo06@...> wrote:
                                                  >
                                                  > Eduardo Hutter wrote:
                                                  > > Hi Robert!
                                                  > >
                                                  > >> (...)
                                                  > >>
                                                  > >> If you can, PLEASE for all that is love and holy, put Linux its own
                                                  > >> hardddrive. Don't get fancy with raids, mirrors, or crazy
                                                  > >> partitioning. And install XP *FIRST*!! When you get experience, then
                                                  > >> fool around with the advanced stuff.
                                                  > >
                                                  > > Why is that?
                                                  >
                                                  > yes, why?

                                                  Simple. If (when) you trash the install, you can literally start anew
                                                  in under an hour. Also, it is very easy and quick to test and
                                                  evaluate different and/or new distributions without worrying about
                                                  what effect it is going to have on the rest of your system.

                                                  Until you comfortable using Linux from the CL, and are aware of the
                                                  potential for damage to the other operating systems, and have a good
                                                  grip on the file system and partitioning used in Linux, you are well
                                                  advised to have an easily swappable haddrive so that you can power
                                                  down, pop out the old harddrive, and drop in a new one. You can then
                                                  quickly reinstall Linux on the new harddrive and pull your data off
                                                  the old harddrive. If you are new to Linux, you are eventually going
                                                  to do something simple that toasts the install. It's natural, and
                                                  part of the learning process.

                                                  If you feel like learning by jumping into the fire and then taking a
                                                  gasoline bath, then by all means start with advanced installations.
                                                  ;c) Most new users don't have asbestos (or Kevlar) underpants as I've
                                                  learned.


                                                  > Installing Windows after Linux will make Linux *temporarily* not
                                                  > bootable and unexperienced users are afraid of that.

                                                  Yuv, he said he was inexperienced (read 'noob'). ;c)


                                                  > The solution is simple: backup the MBR before installing Windows. Then
                                                  > boot with a live CD like the one used to install ubuntu and restore the
                                                  > MBR. Edit the boot entries to add Windows to the menu.

                                                  And chances are, the Linux distro will let them boot to console where
                                                  they can repair/reinstall LILO or GRUB or whatever they are using for
                                                  dual-boot. Again, this is for experienced users. Inexperienced users
                                                  want and need to adhere to the KISS principle. As you said, you can
                                                  fix it, fairly easily I might add, but it may needlessly force some
                                                  folks to reinstall both operating systems due to their unfamiliarity
                                                  with one or both operating systems, or at least their relevant
                                                  components. Not my definition of 'beginner'-level activity.



                                                  > > I mean, about the Linux on its own hd.
                                                  >
                                                  > no need to quarantine Linux, it coexist with Windows on the same HD.

                                                  Sure, that's fine. However, the setup you first imagined gave you the
                                                  opportunity to dedicate a harddrive to Linux. Further, if you are
                                                  like me, you will quickly outgrow the partition. Additionally, and
                                                  perhaps the best reason to use a dedicated harddrive, it is *sooo*
                                                  easy to accidentally destroy the Windows partition during the guided
                                                  Linux setup. Yes, it's a little less dangerous now than in previous
                                                  years, but still it is too easy to do. In fact, it reminds me of when
                                                  cars went from no seatbelt to that lap-belt. Dashes weren't made of
                                                  plastic back then!

                                                  Another reason is one operating system is going to benefit from being
                                                  on the faster part of the harddrive; a benefit denied to the other OS.
                                                  You'll notice that having the OSs on their own harddrive will
                                                  increase the performance of each. Granted, VMWare introduces far
                                                  greater performance hinderances (its other benefits usually far
                                                  outweigh this drawback), but if one is going to go native, then the
                                                  dedicated harddrive is the way to go.



                                                  > If I was you I would use the new HD as scratch disk - because new drives
                                                  > with perpendicular writing have better sustained transfer rate (STR),
                                                  > while the access time (AC) has not changed much. And I'd buy a 500GB
                                                  > disk (best price/GB ratio *and* perpendicular writing).

                                                  If he had the funds to do that, he'd be better off getting VMWare,
                                                  though obviously not for the performance boost. ;c)



                                                  > If you buy a raptor, use it as system disk, not as scratch disk. Also
                                                  > not for the Linux Swap. Scratch disk and swap benefits from STR more
                                                  > than AC - large chunks of data are transferred at once.
                                                  >
                                                  > Raptor(SATA-I, 10K RPM): AC(write): 4.6ms STR:84MB/s
                                                  > Deskstar 7K100 (SATA-II, 7.2K RPM): AC(write): 9.2ms STR:85MB/s
                                                  > For those who have money: Seagate Cheetah(SCSI,15K RPM): 3.9ms / 125MB/s
                                                  >
                                                  > all info from manufacturer's data sheets. similar technology from other
                                                  > manufacturers has similar performance.
                                                  >
                                                  > operating system, like database applications, benefit from AC more than
                                                  > STR - large quantity of small chunks, often concurrent.

                                                  Man, you've really done your homework! :c) Definitely useful for
                                                  anyone looking at increasing their performance of their machine.
                                                  (Good post to bookmark.)

                                                  Regarding the rest of this response, my post was designed for new
                                                  (n00b) users rather than advanced or experienced users. Transitioning
                                                  from Windows is not easy, even going to a Mac (which is easier than
                                                  going to Linux from scratch). And given the inherent complexities
                                                  with Linux, my advice will always be to start simple, easy, and most
                                                  importantly, *disposable*.

                                                  Cheers,
                                                  Robert~

                                                  --
                                                  Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                                                  ATL: 678-438-6955
                                                  garealtours.com
                                                • Kathy Wheeler
                                                  ... (scratches head) don t you mean when (not if) windows sh!ts itself and scribbles all over the hard drive that your Linux drive is still intact and
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Feb 29, 2008
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                                                    On 29/02/2008, at 4:56 PM, Georgia Real Tours wrote:
                                                    > Simple. If (when) you trash the install, you can literally start anew
                                                    > in under an hour.

                                                    (scratches head) don't you mean when (not if) windows sh!ts itself
                                                    and scribbles all over the hard drive that your Linux drive is still
                                                    intact and operable?


                                                    > If you are new to Linux, you are eventually going
                                                    > to do something simple that toasts the install. It's natural, and
                                                    > part of the learning process.

                                                    Sorry Robert, can't agree there. I've installed numerous versions of
                                                    Red Hat and Suse, in multiple boot situations with windows and OS2
                                                    Warp (before OS X [FreeBSD Unix] "came of age" ) and the only thing I
                                                    ever "toasted" was CDs on the poor old G3 ("Toast" CD writer ;-) .
                                                    Unless you do something like an rm -rf at / as root, or run
                                                    everything as root, you're really not that likely to do that much
                                                    damage. That's the whole unix/linux security model. You do not run
                                                    ANYTHING as root unless it HAS to (unless you are really, really,
                                                    stupid).

                                                    I've not installed linux for a number of years and it sounds like,
                                                    with variants like Ubuntu (sp?) things are a LOT easier than they
                                                    used to be. I still miss Enlightnement and multiple virtual desktops.
                                                    Leopards "spaces" is still not quite the same.

                                                    Ah the nostalgia ...

                                                    Cheers,
                                                    KathyW.

                                                    Oh, and if your boot manager claims it cannot find the linux drive
                                                    after the windows install ... IT LIES!! Unfortunately I cannot
                                                    remember the simple trick to get around it ...
                                                  • Georgia Real Tours
                                                    ... Yeah, that too. :D ... Well, you r right. If you don t tinker, you re not going to botch it. But beginners tend to have accidents, especially when
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Feb 29, 2008
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                                                      On 2/29/08, Kathy Wheeler <kathyw@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > On 29/02/2008, at 4:56 PM, Georgia Real Tours wrote:
                                                      > > Simple. If (when) you trash the install, you can literally start anew
                                                      > > in under an hour.
                                                      >
                                                      > (scratches head) don't you mean when (not if) windows sh!ts itself
                                                      > and scribbles all over the hard drive that your Linux drive is still
                                                      > intact and operable?

                                                      Yeah, that too. :D



                                                      > > If you are new to Linux, you are eventually going
                                                      > > to do something simple that toasts the install. It's natural, and
                                                      > > part of the learning process.
                                                      >
                                                      > Sorry Robert, can't agree there. I've installed numerous versions of
                                                      > Red Hat and Suse, in multiple boot situations with windows and OS2
                                                      > Warp (before OS X [FreeBSD Unix] "came of age" ) and the only thing I
                                                      > ever "toasted" was CDs on the poor old G3 ("Toast" CD writer ;-) .
                                                      > Unless you do something like an rm -rf at / as root, or run
                                                      > everything as root, you're really not that likely to do that much
                                                      > damage. That's the whole unix/linux security model. You do not run
                                                      > ANYTHING as root unless it HAS to (unless you are really, really,
                                                      > stupid).

                                                      Well, you'r right. If you don't tinker, you're not going to botch
                                                      it. But beginners tend to have accidents, especially when
                                                      experimenting. Thankfully, it IS safer these days where in some cases
                                                      root isn't even an option. Still, better going in thinking
                                                      something's going to happen and be prepared for it (and proud when it
                                                      doesn't) than to not be prepared and it does happen. :(



                                                      > I've not installed linux for a number of years and it sounds like,
                                                      > with variants like Ubuntu (sp?) things are a LOT easier than they
                                                      > used to be. I still miss Enlightnement and multiple virtual desktops.
                                                      > Leopards "spaces" is still not quite the same.

                                                      I looked for VMWare Player for Mac, but there doesn't seem to be one.
                                                      However, I've heard rave reviews about Parallels
                                                      http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/
                                                      <http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/> and it is MUCH cheaper
                                                      than Fusion.

                                                      But do you know what I want? What I really, really want? Leopard to
                                                      work on my laptop. Officially, anyway. Still too much Steve Jobs in
                                                      the company to let that happen. ;c)



                                                      > Oh, and if your boot manager claims it cannot find the linux drive
                                                      > after the windows install ... IT LIES!! Unfortunately I cannot
                                                      > remember the simple trick to get around it ...

                                                      What, something regarding Windows LIES? Say it isn't so!

                                                      You and I both. Last time I encountered this I just used the boot CD
                                                      to fix it. Yuv's solution works, it's just not the easiest or safest
                                                      (backing up the MBR is *always* recommended however). Before that, I
                                                      think I mounted the harddrive with another install and fixed it there.
                                                      That's going back awhile, since before getting VMWare workstation 6
                                                      when it first came out.

                                                      R~

                                                      --
                                                      Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                                                      ATL: 678-438-6955
                                                      garealtours.com
                                                    • Kathy Wheeler
                                                      ... Likewise. ... My next machine, when I *have* to replace my beloved 17 G4 Powerbook will be one of Steve s new intel based ones (well maybe by then I ll
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Feb 29, 2008
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                                                        On 01/03/2008, at 2:26 AM, Georgia Real Tours wrote:
                                                        > However, I've heard rave reviews about Parallels

                                                        Likewise.

                                                        > http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/
                                                        > <http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/> and it is MUCH cheaper
                                                        > than Fusion.
                                                        >
                                                        > But do you know what I want? What I really, really want? Leopard to
                                                        > work on my laptop. Officially, anyway. Still too much Steve Jobs in
                                                        > the company to let that happen. ;c)

                                                        My "next" machine, when I *have* to replace my beloved 17" G4
                                                        Powerbook will be one of Steve's new intel based ones (well maybe by
                                                        then I'll be able to get a demo or second hand model ... ) and I'll
                                                        put Linux on it as well. Dunno what I'll do about windows although I
                                                        do need the damn thing to test things with :( VirtualPC while not
                                                        brilliant does a reasonable if slow job under OS X without needing a
                                                        re-boot.

                                                        That's the main thing that irked me with multiple boot situations -
                                                        reboot time and not being able to cut-and-paste from one os to the
                                                        other. I know, I want too much ... just to be able to run everything
                                                        on the same machine at the same time ... develop under my preferred
                                                        os and check as I go on all the others ...

                                                        After going through numerous Toshiba and Dell notebooks (mobility has
                                                        always been a major factor, now a small power footprint is important
                                                        too) I'm happy to pay the extra for the Apple pro line. The build
                                                        quality and reliability is just so much better, and you don't have
                                                        one component manufacturer blaming the other when things don't work,
                                                        which is often what happened with diy desktop PC builds in the past,
                                                        even expensive ones.

                                                        Cheers,
                                                        KathyW.
                                                      • AYRTON
                                                        On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 7:36 PM, Kathy Wheeler ... I use it It s so nice :-) ... It works !!! Willy Kaemena was here in Rio and he
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Feb 29, 2008
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                                                          On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 7:36 PM, Kathy Wheeler <kathyw@...>
                                                          wrote:

                                                          >
                                                          > Likewise.
                                                          >
                                                          > > http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/
                                                          > > <http://www.parallels.com/en/products/desktop/> and it is MUCH cheaper
                                                          > > than Fusion.


                                                          I use it It's so nice :-)


                                                          >
                                                          > > But do you know what I want? What I really, really want? Leopard to
                                                          > > work on my laptop. Officially, anyway.


                                                          It works !!!
                                                          Willy Kaemena was here in Rio and he saw mine runnign nice and smooth

                                                          That's the main thing that irked me with multiple boot situations -
                                                          > reboot time and not being able to cut-and-paste from one os to the
                                                          > other. I know, I want too much ... just to be able to run everything
                                                          > on the same machine at the same time ... develop under my preferred
                                                          > os and check as I go on all the others ...


                                                          PARALLELS do that exactly the way you want Kathy.
                                                          You can drag something from MAC OS to windows OS and vice-versa

                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          > I'm happy to pay the extra for the Apple pro line. The build
                                                          > quality and reliability is just so much better, and you don't have
                                                          > one component manufacturer blaming the other when things don't work,


                                                          My powerbooks ( I have 4) works perfectly for years
                                                          And now I'm gonna buy the new macBook PRO



                                                          >
                                                          > which is often what happened with diy desktop PC builds in the past,
                                                          > even expensive ones.


                                                          always :-)



                                                          > Cheers,
                                                          > KathyW.


                                                          Cheers too
                                                          AYRTON


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