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Re: [PanoToolsNG] Dynamic JavaVRs?

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  • Mark Banas (lists)
    ... Thanks, Kathy. I just might take you up on that... I guess what I should look for is the easiest to configure applet to read the image from the page and
    Message 1 of 13 , Jul 10, 2006
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      On Jul 10, 2006, at 7:38 PM, Kathy Wheeler wrote:

      > On 11/07/2006, at 9:02 AM, Mark Banas (lists) wrote:
      >> What I would like to find is a Java VR display solution that can show
      >> each "distorted" image in the typical VR fashion, but reading the
      >> image source from the dynamically generated page.
      >
      > The PHP should be simple, once you determine which viewer you want to
      > use, and whether you want to show them in a new window (pop-up - full
      > screen or otherwise) or the original window. Can't help with the
      > viewers (although I do have a personal favorite I'm a bit out of
      > touch with current best recommendations) but if you'd like help with
      > the PHP I'm happy to look at it.

      Thanks, Kathy. I just might take you up on that...

      I guess what I should look for is the easiest to configure applet to
      read the image from the page and simply display it. Nothing too
      fancy, but an easier to understand "visual format" for non-pano folk
      (as opposed to an equirect). I have lots of experience with QTVR, but
      that is useless here as I would have to make individual QTVRs of each
      equirectangular I upload and the files would be directly referenced.
      Fine for a fullscreen gallery, but nuts for just an additional way to
      look at images. I know people like Yuval have done this already, so
      I'll wait until he has had his dinner and hope can opine on viewers
      and techniques. ;-)

      -Mark
    • Kathy Wheeler
      ... No, really, you don t want to do that, seriously. Your page contains thumbnails - nice, small files, fast to load. They can each be a link that will call a
      Message 2 of 13 , Jul 10, 2006
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        On 11/07/2006, at 12:05 PM, Mark Banas (lists) wrote:
        > I guess what I should look for is the easiest to configure applet to
        > read the image from the page and simply display it.

        No, really, you don't want to do that, seriously.

        Your page contains thumbnails - nice, small files, fast to load. They
        can each be a link that will call a page (same one if you want) that
        will bring up the (java) pano in it's own window or in the base page,
        downloading the full sized image only when (or if) it's needed. All
        you need to do is pass your PHP script a variable that will identify
        the image you want to display, and have a function or routine to
        handle it in the script. Pretty simple stuff.

        Cheers,
        KathyW.
      • yuval_levy
        Hi Mark, I am not exactly sure I understand what you are trying to achieve here, but there are a few possibilities. I will first ask you some questions to
        Message 3 of 13 , Jul 10, 2006
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          Hi Mark,

          I am not exactly sure I understand what you are trying to achieve
          here, but there are a few possibilities. I will first ask you some
          questions to understand your needs.

          When you write about an an <quote> easier to understand "visual
          format" for non-pano folk (as opposed to an equirect) </quote> do you
          mean for the thumbnail or for the image as a whole? and do you want
          the image to be interactive, i.e. the user to click and drag inside
          like a VR, or do you want to show a transformed version of the
          equirect, flat on the page?

          There are a number of viewing technologies. My take on them is to be
          agnostic and try to deliver the VR in whatever technology is available
          on the browser.

          The basic dynamic page will just have the tags for the VR technology
          and will replace the file at the appropriate place. You can see such
          an example at
          <http://www.items.ch/panoramas/panorama.asp?filenum=298> (PT 185kB)
          <http://www.items.ch/panoramas/panorama.asp?filenum=300> (QT 684kB)

          (BTW, that's me with Jean-Marc Paratte discussing the French
          translation of Pano2QTVR and other fun stuff while it was pouring rain
          outside). Jean-Marc holds the copyright for the ASP script and the pano.

          A similar approach in PHP (wont work for much longer as I have to
          remake completely that website - it is not even Eola compliant):

          <http://www.photopla.net/pano.php?id=63>

          The filenum or id parameters tell the script what panorama out of a
          list, usually in a database, to display. In Jean-Marc's script it also
          determine the technology. My script is mono-technology and thus
          inferior: people w/o Java won't see it, while people w/o Java but with
          QuickTime will see the second link from Jean-Marc.

          Choice is the difficult stage - most people do not know nor care what
          panorama displaying technology the have on their computer. This is why
          I wrote Brocap, a tool to detect the technology available and use it.

          You can see Brocap in use at two sites. My commercial site for real
          estate, e.g. <http://www.voxcasa.com/visite.php?sia=x42500> will
          display in five different technologies.

          A different approach was developed together with Bernhard Vogl for his
          <http://www.austria-360.at/>.

          The main difference is in the master format of the VR. For me it is
          the equirect, while for Bernhard it is the QTVR. He has scripts that
          transform on the spot a QTVR into Spi-V cubefaces. The jointly
          developed scripts are available at <http://dativ.at/brocap/> and I
          should fix the bugs and release the latest version at
          <http://br.xenaura.com/> - with a little bit of PHP knowledge you'll
          get Bernhard's version up and running fairly quick, but it has no Java
          support because using Java to display the QTVR format is tricky and
          does not always work.

          This is why I took the equirectangular as input format. I have written
          a script to transform the equirectangular into the different output
          formats (using Pano2QTVR for the QTVRs and ImageMagick / PanoTools for
          the rest), although the transformations can also be done manually.
          This runs offline, so it requires more storage space on the server but
          is faster in the delivery process.

          I am currently examining a few content management systems to see if I
          can integrate my viewing technology as a module / plug in. Then,
          publishing panos dynamically will become as easy as writing text with
          a word processor.

          Yuv
        • Mark Banas (lists)
          ... Heh, simple for you perhaps! 8-} I am thinking that each pano would be linked from an image-specific page like this one:
          Message 4 of 13 , Jul 10, 2006
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            On Jul 10, 2006, at 10:35 PM, Kathy Wheeler wrote:

            >
            > On 11/07/2006, at 12:05 PM, Mark Banas (lists) wrote:
            >> I guess what I should look for is the easiest to configure applet to
            >> read the image from the page and simply display it.
            >
            > No, really, you don't want to do that, seriously.
            >
            > Your page contains thumbnails - nice, small files, fast to load. They
            > can each be a link that will call a page (same one if you want) that
            > will bring up the (java) pano in it's own window or in the base page,
            > downloading the full sized image only when (or if) it's needed. All
            > you need to do is pass your PHP script a variable that will identify
            > the image you want to display, and have a function or routine to
            > handle it in the script. Pretty simple stuff.

            Heh, "simple" for you perhaps! 8-}

            I am thinking that each pano would be linked from an image-specific
            page like this one:
            http://www.mab3d.com/gallery/main.php?g2_itemId=40
            not necc. from the thumbnails page, but that is academic.

            I guess my thinking (correct me if I'm wrong here) is that since the
            image has already been loaded on the page at an acceptable resolution
            (1000x500) then it would be a matter of referencing that same image
            in the the source of the Java VR. In other words the PHP for the new
            window with the pano would build off of whatever the Gallery page
            defined as the source of the main image, which in this case is this
            cryptic bit of code going back to the database:
            img src="main.php?
            g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=16&g2_serialNumber=2"

            IIRC: I think this is done to prevent wholesale image theft, and to
            allow high-res images to be uploaded and resampled for various views
            automatically, but these images are actually JPEG-HDR, so they are
            not resampled at all (or they would lose the 32-bit depth) but their
            location is known only in the database entries.

            What I think you are saying is that I need to look at the PHP for the
            Gallery display pages and figure out how it goes from thumbnail to
            main image and defines that img src, and then to do the same in my
            panoviewer PHP. Correct? Does it matter that at the time the
            panoviewer page is called the previous page already has the correct
            database entry in the generated page it is linked from?

            Sorry if this is all "way basic PHP" for you, but I'm trying to
            shoehorn a feature into a gallery setup that already meets 90% of my
            needs.

            -Mark
          • Mark Banas (lists)
            ... Hi Yuv, Image as a whole, click-and-drag JavaVR. I d prefer JavaVR (whatever type) mainly because my images are already equirectangulars and would work as
            Message 5 of 13 , Jul 10, 2006
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              On Jul 10, 2006, at 11:37 PM, yuval_levy wrote:

              > When you write about an an <quote> easier to understand "visual
              > format" for non-pano folk (as opposed to an equirect) </quote> do you
              > mean for the thumbnail or for the image as a whole? and do you want
              > the image to be interactive, i.e. the user to click and drag inside
              > like a VR, or do you want to show a transformed version of the
              > equirect, flat on the page?

              Hi Yuv,

              Image as a whole, click-and-drag JavaVR. I'd prefer JavaVR (whatever
              type) mainly because my images are already equirectangulars and would
              work as a source - and because Java has a much greater installed base
              than Shockwave (for Spi-V).

              > The basic dynamic page will just have the tags for the VR technology
              > and will replace the file at the appropriate place. You can see such
              > an example at
              > <http://www.items.ch/panoramas/panorama.asp?filenum=298> (PT 185kB)
              > <http://www.items.ch/panoramas/panorama.asp?filenum=300> (QT 684kB)

              While I am sure the delice was just that, the above links are pretty
              much what I want to avoid: no pano ever displayed from either link.
              I think panoserve.atoms.ch wasn't responding fast enough (or at all)...

              As Kathy and Sacha have alluded to, this is probably dead simple if I
              know what I'm doing. Problem is that I'm starting out with a pretty
              fully-developed gallery system and image manager, but trying to stick
              this onto it. Might be better for me to start asking questions of the
              kind folks who developed the gallery in the first place. If only
              their VR viewer actually *worked* I wouldn't have to consider this! I
              might not even pursue it in the end, if only because it could be such
              a waste of time for what amounts to meeting a need I don't know if I
              have. I mean, these aren't real estate images - these are simply
              panoramic HDR images!

              BTW, now that some of you have actually loaded the "high-res"
              equirectangular image onto your screen - congratulations, you have
              been served one of the few truly High Dynamic Range Images viewable
              on the internet! In other words, your browser thought that was a
              tonemapped JPEG, but the image itself contains the 32-bit luminance
              data just waiting for you to copy it to your desktop and open it with
              Photosphere or something else that reads JPEG-HDR files.

              In the very near future, those of us with HDR monitors won't see the
              tonemapped version, but rather a luminously glowing image surrounded
              by the otherwise flat, grey interface of a naive browser. Pretty cool
              once you think about it...

              -Mark
            • Kathy Wheeler
              ... I just did a right click View Image on that img and it certainly came up too fast to be coming from anywhere other than the browser cache so in theory it
              Message 6 of 13 , Jul 10, 2006
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                On 11/07/2006, at 2:18 PM, Mark Banas (lists) wrote:
                > I guess my thinking (correct me if I'm wrong here) is that since the
                > image has already been loaded on the page at an acceptable resolution
                > (1000x500) then it would be a matter of referencing that same image
                > in the the source of the Java VR. In other words the PHP for the new
                > window with the pano would build off of whatever the Gallery page
                > defined as the source of the main image, which in this case is this
                > cryptic bit of code going back to the database:
                > img src="main.php?
                > g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=16&g2_serialNumber=2"

                I just did a right click "View Image" on that img and it certainly
                came up too fast to be coming from anywhere other than the browser
                cache so in theory it should work fine. The only thing I am a little
                uncertain of is how the java viewers interface with the browser/
                server. IF they simply call for the image as (in this case) "main.php?
                g2_view=core.DownloadItem&g2_itemId=16&g2_serialNumber=2"
                then it should work. Certainly worth a try.

                > What I think you are saying is that I need to look at the PHP for the
                > Gallery display pages and figure out how it goes from thumbnail to
                > main image and defines that img src, and then to do the same in my
                > panoviewer PHP. Correct?

                Yes.

                > Does it matter that at the time the
                > panoviewer page is called the previous page already has the correct
                > database entry in the generated page it is linked from?

                Shouldn't do. The index for that image should not change. I haven't
                looked at the PHP for Gallery2 to be certain, but it's certainly
                worth a try. If you need any help feel free to contact me off-list so
                we don't bore the good people here with technical coding, just the
                announcement when you get it working ;-)

                Cheers,
                KathyW.
              • Kathy Wheeler
                ... Where do I get me one of those monitors and can I afford it (think I know the answer to the last bit :-( KathyW.
                Message 7 of 13 , Jul 10, 2006
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                  On 11/07/2006, at 2:45 PM, Mark Banas (lists) wrote:
                  > In the very near future, those of us with HDR monitors won't see the
                  > tonemapped version, but rather a luminously glowing image surrounded
                  > by the otherwise flat, grey interface of a naive browser. Pretty cool
                  > once you think about it...

                  Where do I get me one of those monitors and can I afford it (think I
                  know the answer to the last bit :-(

                  KathyW.
                • Mark Banas (lists)
                  ... http://www.brightsidetech.com/ And, um, right now they are around $50,000 USD and mostly handmade - but that is 40% off of their original price! ;-) As the
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jul 11, 2006
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                    On Jul 11, 2006, at 1:23 AM, Kathy Wheeler wrote:

                    >
                    > On 11/07/2006, at 2:45 PM, Mark Banas (lists) wrote:
                    >> In the very near future, those of us with HDR monitors won't see the
                    >> tonemapped version, but rather a luminously glowing image surrounded
                    >> by the otherwise flat, grey interface of a naive browser. Pretty cool
                    >> once you think about it...
                    >
                    > Where do I get me one of those monitors and can I afford it (think I
                    > know the answer to the last bit :-(

                    http://www.brightsidetech.com/

                    And, um, right now they are around $50,000 USD and mostly handmade -
                    but that is 40% off of their original price! ;-)

                    As the larger companies, with better manufacturing abilities, get
                    involved and license the technology the price will likely fall.
                    However, just as with cameras and computers, the really innovative
                    stuff will be delayed to maximize the profit of existing tech. I
                    heard about this technology in 2002, and now 4 years later it can be
                    "purchased." Maybe in another 4 years it can be "afforded?"
                  • Mark Banas (lists)
                    ... Thanks, Kathy. I will poke around and ask the Gallery2 folks what they recommend first, as well as refresh my grey cells with some details of PHP coding. I
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jul 11, 2006
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                      On Jul 11, 2006, at 1:16 AM, Kathy Wheeler wrote:

                      >> Does it matter that at the time the
                      >> panoviewer page is called the previous page already has the correct
                      >> database entry in the generated page it is linked from?
                      >
                      > Shouldn't do. The index for that image should not change. I haven't
                      > looked at the PHP for Gallery2 to be certain, but it's certainly
                      > worth a try. If you need any help feel free to contact me off-list so
                      > we don't bore the good people here with technical coding, just the
                      > announcement when you get it working ;-)

                      Thanks, Kathy. I will poke around and ask the Gallery2 folks what
                      they recommend first, as well as refresh my grey cells with some
                      details of PHP coding. I was thinking the hardest part would be
                      setting up the java applet to display the image, but it seems just
                      *getting* the proper image will be the real struggle for me. (After
                      about an hour last night I understood the Immervision applet and XML
                      methods - very nice!)

                      And thanks to Sacha and Yuval's wonderful examples I can see that the
                      end product is quite feasible and workable! I've seen all this
                      discussed before, but never had a real need to explore it or learn it.

                      -Mark
                    • bernharv2000
                      Hello Mark, I use PHP to create some Spi-V content on the fly. If i understand your simple need to insert a filename into plugin code correctly, a code snippet
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jul 11, 2006
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                        Hello Mark,

                        I use PHP to create some Spi-V content on the fly.

                        If i understand your simple need to insert a filename into plugin code
                        correctly, a code snippet for Java content could look like this:

                        // Get Filename of JPEG-File
                        $file = (array_key_exists("file", $_GET)) ? $_GET["file"] : "";
                        [...]
                        // Generate HTML Page
                        ?>
                        [...]
                        <param name="file" value="<? echo $file ?>">
                        [...]

                        The call of the dynamic HTML would be something like:
                        http://www.mab3d.com/gallery/viewer.php?file=panorama.jpg

                        Best regards
                        Bernhard
                      • vtourdk
                        Have a look at Simpleview - an automated PHP/PTviewer based previewer I made some years ago. I might not be exactly what you want, but it can give you some
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jul 12, 2006
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                          Have a look at "Simpleview" - an automated PHP/PTviewer based previewer
                          I made some years ago. I might not be exactly what you want, but it can
                          give you some idea on how to use PHP for this kind of tasks.

                          http://www.in2.dk/pttours/ <http://www.in2.dk/pttours/>

                          best regards

                          Flemming



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