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Re: new international rule about batteries

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  • dmgalpha
    I love the way some US media interprets International . For those in Canada check CSTSA web site for restrictions in this country.
    Message 1 of 22 , Jan 2, 2008
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      I love the way some US media interprets "International".

      For those in Canada check CSTSA web site for restrictions in this country.

      http://www.catsa-acsta.gc.ca/english/travel_voyage/notice_avis/index.shtml

      --dmg


      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Carel <cs@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > To make air travel even more unpleasant, there is a new rule which
      stipulates
      > that one has to carry spare lithium batteries in hand luggage, no
      more than
      > two batteries allowed and they have to be in their original
      packaging or in
      > a ziplock bag. This is supposed to make them safe from catching
      fire, which
      > makes one wonder why only two spares are allowed if they wont catch fire
      > anyhow when properly packaged.
      > http://tinyurl.com/3a5jm2
      > Usually I travel with two spare batteries per camera (which makes 4)
      and I
      > just ordered a universal battery, which can be used for any device that
      > works in the range 3.5v-12v.
      > http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=919
      > I wonder how we are supposed to deal with this. Buy batteries
      locally and
      > give them away before returning home...?
      >
      > Carel Struycken
      > --
      > View this message in context:
      http://www.nabble.com/new-international-rule-about-batteries-tp14568579p14568579.html
      > Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
      >
    • Pat Swovelin
      ... True but a lot of people, both on and off of this list, will enter/exit US airspace and that s when they ll ding you for being the mad terrorist Li-On
      Message 2 of 22 , Jan 3, 2008
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        On 1/1/2008 12:12 PM, Ian Wood rambled on about ...:
        > Note that these rules appear to be US-specific - I've not read
        > anything about them applying in other countries.

        True but a lot of people, both on and off of this list, will enter/exit
        US airspace and that's when they'll ding you for being the mad terrorist
        Li-On battery bomber and you'll wind up with a stay in Guantanamo Naval
        Base that includes free room and board ... indefinitely.

        > When I flew from Germany to Amsterdam to the UK last week there
        > weren't any leaflets or posters about this *anywhere*.
        >
        > Ian
        >
        > On 1 Jan 2008, at 19:26, Jean-Marc Paratte wrote:
        >
        >> Read "GUIDE TO RULES EFFECTIVE JANUARY 1, 2008"
        >> at end of this page:
        >> http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html




        Pat Swovelin
        Cool Guy @ Large
      • Pat Swovelin
        ... Have you ever had a conversation with anyone in the TSA at the security check-in point and/or someone from Homeland Security? It s like talking physics
        Message 3 of 22 , Jan 3, 2008
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          On 1/1/2008 12:42 PM, Keith Martin rambled on about ...:
          > Sometime around 1/1/08 (at 19:26 +0000) Jean-Marc Paratte said:
          >
          >> Read "GUIDE TO RULES EFFECTIVE JANUARY 1, 2008"
          >> at end of this page:
          >> <http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html>http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html
          >
          > Well, Scooby Doo! For a site that's got so much specific detail
          > that's spectacularly unhelpful. :-)
          >
          > But with a quick look at
          > http://www.camerahacker.com/Definitions/Battery_Capacity_Conversion.shtml
          > and some basic calculations, it seems that the Li-ion battery in my
          > old D70 (7.5V 1400mAh) delivers approximately 10.5 'watt-hours'.
          >
          > (The maths: Although an electrician would point out that this isn't
          > *entirely* accurate, it is possible to determine watts if you know
          > amps and volts. Or in our case, watt-hours from milliamp-hours and
          > volts. The calculation is amp * volts = watts, or (mAh * 1000) *
          > volts = watt-hours.)
          >
          > According to the Safe Travel site, 8g of 'equivalent lithium content'
          > delivers approximately 100 watt-hours. So it seems that my 1400mAh
          > D70 battery has a fraction more than 0.8g of 'equivalent lithium
          > content'.
          >
          > The site then says very specifically:
          >
          > "You can also bring up to two spare batteries
          > with an aggregate equivalent lithium content
          > of up to 25 grams, in addition to any batteries
          > that fall below the 8-gram threshold."
          >
          > The line "in addition to any batteries that fall below the 8-gram
          > threshold" would seem to cover us for an open-ended quantity of dSLR
          > batteries of any kind I've ever seen.
          >
          > Even if I've made a big error in the above calculations (it seems
          > pretty dang clear but all things are possible) our batteries are
          > significantly less beefy than the kind of laptop extender powerpack
          > or prosumer camcorder batteries the site shows.
          >
          > I think we're safe. And if someone's still worried, take the formulae
          > with you, perhaps laid out to look nice 'n' official, and use that to
          > justify your dozens of spare Li-ion batteries. And remember to be
          > clear that they aren't Lithium Metal batteries. :-)

          Have you ever had a conversation with anyone in the TSA at the security
          check-in point and/or someone from Homeland Security? It's like talking
          physics with your dog. It's a waste of your time and it just irritates
          the dog.

          Seriously. These people just won't/can't listen to reason.

          > Department of Transport?
          > Department of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, more like...
          >
          >
          > k




          Pat Swovelin
          Cool Guy @ Large
        • Keith Martin
          ... Well, not someone badged as Homeland Security, but I have had to explain the large, suspicious lump of highly-machined metal and the metal tubes in my
          Message 4 of 22 , Jan 4, 2008
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            Sometime around 3/1/08 (at 22:02 -0800) Pat Swovelin said:

            >Have you ever had a conversation with anyone in the TSA at the security
            >check-in point and/or someone from Homeland Security?

            Well, not someone badged as Homeland Security, but I have had to
            explain the large, suspicious lump of highly-machined metal and the
            metal tubes in my carry-on bag to jumpy check-in security in San
            Francisco a couple of different times.

            The 360P Absolute head is a little scary (especially on x-rays) if
            you're looking for terrorists and don't have a clue about what it
            really is! Tripod parts just compound the problem too... but it was
            never worryingly difficult to explain. So far anyway.

            If I ever need to explain multiple batteries I'll leave the physics
            calculations for later and just say "oh, these all fall into the
            official 'small battery' category, they're well under the limit".
            Being clear, calm, confident and cooperative (the four Cs) normally
            helps a lot.

            The fact is, the people checking bags want to stop terrorists and
            other criminals, not futz about with honest and cooperative
            passengers. I've seen (second-hand) how petty they *can* be if
            handled wrongly, but if they're convinced that you're *really*
            harmless - and honestly are trying to stay in line - then human
            nature will begin to work on your side. Or so my experience has shown
            on a number of occasions... :-)

            Hmm. Perhaps now is the right point to say "your mileage may vary"?

            k
          • Serge Maandag
            ... Hmm, I scored good on all 4 Cs when I went to Norway. Yet the sporty looks of my car and the Dutch license plate were enough to have them interrogate me
            Message 5 of 22 , Jan 4, 2008
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              > If I ever need to explain multiple batteries I'll leave the physics
              > calculations for later and just say "oh, these all fall into the
              > official 'small battery' category, they're well under the limit".
              > Being clear, calm, confident and cooperative (the four Cs) normally
              > helps a lot.

              Hmm,

              I scored good on all 4 Cs when I went to Norway. Yet the sporty looks of my car and
              the Dutch license plate were enough to have them interrogate me and my girlfriend in
              a room while a drug sniffing dog was drooling all over my car and opened bags.
              Yuck..

              Amsterdams reputation bit me in the backside on this occasion. Ofcourse they didn't
              find anything, so after an hour I was on my way to the nearest drycleaner. A bad way
              to start your holiday..

              Serge.
            • John Riley
              ... They usually seem much more concerned about my nice, new tube of toothpaste! I always end up losing one in each direction because I forgot to check it. I
              Message 6 of 22 , Jan 4, 2008
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                On Jan 4, 2008, at 7:20 AM, Keith Martin wrote:

                > >Have you ever had a conversation with anyone in the TSA at the
                > security
                > >check-in point and/or someone from Homeland Security?
                >
                > Well, not someone badged as Homeland Security, but I have had to
                > explain the large, suspicious lump of highly-machined metal and the
                > metal tubes in my carry-on bag to jumpy check-in security in San
                > Francisco a couple of different times.



                They usually seem much more concerned about my nice, new tube of
                toothpaste! I always end up losing one in each direction because I
                forgot to check it. I have gone through security with a bag full of
                lenses, camera, 360Precision Absolute, computer, palm device, cell
                phone, ipod, gps, external hard disk and all the assorted wiring (I
                was traveling abroad for 8 months, so I had my life with me) and they
                didn't even open the bag. But I had to ditch the toothpaste!

                John Riley
                johnriley@...
                jriley@...



                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Pat Swovelin
                ... Yes they do want to stop the bad guys but they re undertrained ill paid cop wannabees with a badge. 2 years ago I flew to Mexico City and before I checked
                Message 7 of 22 , Jan 5, 2008
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                  On 1/4/2008 4:20 AM, Keith Martin rambled on about ...:
                  > The fact is, the people checking bags want to stop terrorists and
                  > other criminals, not futz about with honest and cooperative
                  > passengers. I've seen (second-hand) how petty they *can* be if
                  > handled wrongly, but if they're convinced that you're *really*
                  > harmless - and honestly are trying to stay in line - then human
                  > nature will begin to work on your side. Or so my experience has shown
                  > on a number of occasions... :-)

                  Yes they do want to stop the bad guys but they're undertrained ill paid
                  cop wannabees with a badge. 2 years ago I flew to Mexico City and
                  before I checked my bags I showed a bunch of stuff to the TSA guy at the
                  X-ray machine to get his approval for everything in my camera bag.
                  There was maybe 1 item he said I should put in my checked bags. I did
                  and I had no problems ... until I tried getting on the plane in Mexico
                  City to come home. They totally freaked when they "found" (like I was
                  hiding it) my MONSTER 3" crescent wrench. It was considered a tool and
                  it wasn't getting on the plane with me. My screwdrivers were OK (they
                  weren't tools). My 6" long Allen wrench was OK (it wasn't a tool). The
                  3" crescent wrench was a tool would cause the plane to fall out of the
                  sky or I'd somehow use it to take the nuts off of the cockpit door and
                  overpower the crew with it (This is a hijacking! Take me to Cuba or
                  I'll take more nuts off of stuff!) and it wasn't going on the plane with me.

                  And these guys are less picky than the US security agents are.

                  Of course they may have been having a bad hair day ... or I was. =8^)

                  When I got back to the States I asked one of the security guys about it
                  and he said it's OK here but they have a different list. Swell...

                  > Hmm. Perhaps now is the right point to say "your mileage may vary"?

                  It will only vary IF you can get on the plane. =8^)

                  > k




                  Pat Swovelin
                  Cool Guy @ Large
                • Keith Martin
                  ... Ah well, a sacrificial tube of toothpaste is a small price to pay. :-) The wetpixel.com site has some more specific info on this subject, and it appears
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jan 7, 2008
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                    Sometime around 4/1/08 (at 21:46 -0500) John Riley said:

                    >They usually seem much more concerned about my nice, new tube of
                    >toothpaste! I always end up losing one in each direction

                    Ah well, a sacrificial tube of toothpaste is a small price to pay. :-)

                    The wetpixel.com site has some more specific info on this subject,
                    and it appears that we are indeed safe; the batteries we deal with
                    for digital SLRs are not even nearly big enough to be counted in the
                    restrictions. But all batteries must be transported in carry-on
                    luggage.

                    http://tinyurl.com/2zmeay

                    (It is also true that this still just affects US airspace travel. But
                    it could easily become a standard restriction in other places too.)

                    k
                  • panokaemena@mac.com
                    well who has no problems....... can think about how to create some more..... once they found a little Allen key in my camera back..... oh boy.... may be I
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jan 7, 2008
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                      well who has no problems....... can think about how to create some
                      more.....

                      once they found a little Allen key in my camera back..... oh boy....
                      may be I could put the plane in pieces with it during flight... it
                      was confiscated.,.....

                      there is room to invent more stupid stuff by the administration.....

                      but at least in First and Business you are getting now again real
                      knifes, not anymore silver cutlery accompanied by a plastic knife....


                      Willy
                      http://homepage.mac.com/wkaemena/FSPanos/Menu422.html ( Rio de Janeiro)

                      On Jan 7, 2008, at 15:27, Keith Martin wrote:

                      > Sometime around 4/1/08 (at 21:46 -0500) John Riley said:
                      >
                      > >They usually seem much more concerned about my nice, new tube of
                      > >toothpaste! I always end up losing one in each direction
                      >
                      > Ah well, a sacrificial tube of toothpaste is a small price to pay. :-)
                      >
                      > The wetpixel.com site has some more specific info on this subject,
                      > and it appears that we are indeed safe; the batteries we deal with
                      > for digital SLRs are not even nearly big enough to be counted in the
                      > restrictions. But all batteries must be transported in carry-on
                      > luggage.
                      >
                      > http://tinyurl.com/2zmeay
                      >
                      > (It is also true that this still just affects US airspace travel. But
                      > it could easily become a standard restriction in other places too.)
                      >
                      > k
                      >
                      >

                      Willy Kaemena

                      http://homepage.mac.com/wkaemena/FSPanos/Menu268.html
                      http://bremen.360cities.net/
                      http://syria.360cities.net/
                      http://lisbon.360cities.net/






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Pat Swovelin
                      On 1/7/2008 9:27 AM, Keith Martin s hamster got loose on the keyboard ... It seems that the real problem is the limit of 2 spare batteries per device. As
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jan 7, 2008
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                        On 1/7/2008 9:27 AM, Keith Martin's hamster got loose on the keyboard
                        and typed ...:
                        > Sometime around 4/1/08 (at 21:46 -0500) John Riley said:
                        >
                        >> They usually seem much more concerned about my nice, new tube of
                        >> toothpaste! I always end up losing one in each direction
                        >
                        > Ah well, a sacrificial tube of toothpaste is a small price to pay. :-)
                        >
                        > The wetpixel.com site has some more specific info on this subject,
                        > and it appears that we are indeed safe; the batteries we deal with
                        > for digital SLRs are not even nearly big enough to be counted in the
                        > restrictions. But all batteries must be transported in carry-on
                        > luggage.

                        It seems that the real problem is the limit of 2 spare batteries per
                        device. As photographers that's the one that'll bite us.

                        > http://tinyurl.com/2zmeay
                        >
                        > (It is also true that this still just affects US airspace travel. But
                        > it could easily become a standard restriction in other places too.)
                        >
                        > k




                        Pat Swovelin
                        Cool Guy @ Large
                      • Keith Martin
                        ... Don t worry, it shouldn t. Not unless you pack mega-huge battery packs! The kind of batteries we use contain just a fraction of the *lower* limit of
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jan 7, 2008
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                          Sometime around 7/1/08 (at 14:20 -0800) Pat Swovelin said:

                          >It seems that the real problem is the limit of 2 spare batteries per
                          >device. As photographers that's the one that'll bite us.

                          Don't worry, it shouldn't. Not unless you pack mega-huge battery
                          packs! The kind of batteries we use contain just a fraction of the
                          *lower* limit of Lithium-ion. Batteries that contain less than 8g are
                          not included in the restrictions; ours typically contain 1g or less.

                          Whether you run into trouble with an overzealous security guard is
                          another matter of course, but the fact is that our batteries are not
                          meant to be included in the restrictions. That can be demonstrated
                          using some relatively simple calculations. Simple when you know them
                          of course!

                          Some info is here: http://tinyurl.com/2zmeay

                          k
                        • John Riley
                          ... But if I can t brush my teeth, doesn t that mean the terrorist have already won? (he says, parodying a particular political faction) John Riley
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jan 7, 2008
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                            On Jan 7, 2008, at 12:27 PM, Keith Martin wrote:

                            > >They usually seem much more concerned about my nice, new tube of
                            > >toothpaste! I always end up losing one in each direction
                            >
                            > Ah well, a sacrificial tube of toothpaste is a small price to pay. :-)

                            But if I can't brush my teeth, doesn't that mean the terrorist have
                            already won? (he says, parodying a particular political faction)


                            John Riley
                            johnriley@...
                            jriley@...



                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Pat Swovelin
                            On 1/7/2008 4:02 PM, John Riley s hamster got loose on the keyboard and ... No, it means you re one of them. Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Pat Swovelin Cool
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 7, 2008
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                              On 1/7/2008 4:02 PM, John Riley's hamster got loose on the keyboard and
                              typed ...:
                              >>> They usually seem much more concerned about my nice, new tube of
                              >>> toothpaste! I always end up losing one in each direction
                              >> Ah well, a sacrificial tube of toothpaste is a small price to pay. :-)
                              >
                              > But if I can't brush my teeth, doesn't that mean the terrorist have
                              > already won? (he says, parodying a particular political faction)

                              No, it means you're one of them. Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!




                              Pat Swovelin
                              Cool Guy @ Large
                            • Georgia Real Tours
                              Hi Pat, ... I think you are misinterpreting the restrictions. It is a limit of two batteries which have a Li-On content above 8mg and below 25g with a 25g
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 8, 2008
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                                Hi Pat,

                                On 1/7/08, Pat Swovelin <Panoramas@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > It seems that the real problem is the limit of 2 spare batteries per
                                > device. As photographers that's the one that'll bite us.

                                I think you are misinterpreting the restrictions. It is a limit of
                                two batteries which have a Li-On content above 8mg and below 25g with
                                a 25g limit aggregate. And of course, the 25g limit applies as a
                                total of your batteries.

                                It bears to remember that cellphone batteries are often Li-On. And so
                                are many rechargeable AA and AAA batteries, plus many (if not all)
                                little cell batteries (coin-size) contain lithium. Also, those
                                uber-expensive Duracell and Energizer (and other brands) that claim
                                incredible long life often are lithium powered. All of these need to
                                be taken into account besides just laptop and camera batteries.

                                If you are going to travel, look for NiMH batteries which last longer,
                                charge faster, and have much less a problem with memory development
                                (though you should never let a rechargeable battery ever drain all the
                                way down). IIRC, those aren't a problem.

                                Lastly, keep an eye out for sealed lead-acid batteries which I believe
                                are not allowed whatsoever on carry-on, and probably not allowed on
                                checked baggage either. Awesome little batteries, but certainly I
                                would consider them more hazardous than Li-On.


                                Cheers,
                                Robert~

                                --
                                Mid GA: 478-599-1300
                                ATL: 678-438-6955
                                garealtours.com
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