## [PanoToolsNG] Re: new international rule about batteries

Expand Messages
• ... Well, Scooby Doo! For a site that s got so much specific detail that s spectacularly unhelpful. :-) But with a quick look at
Message 1 of 22 , Jan 1, 2008
Sometime around 1/1/08 (at 19:26 +0000) Jean-Marc Paratte said:

>Read "GUIDE TO RULES EFFECTIVE JANUARY 1, 2008"
><http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html>http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html

Well, Scooby Doo! For a site that's got so much specific detail

But with a quick look at
http://www.camerahacker.com/Definitions/Battery_Capacity_Conversion.shtml
and some basic calculations, it seems that the Li-ion battery in my
old D70 (7.5V 1400mAh) delivers approximately 10.5 'watt-hours'.

(The maths: Although an electrician would point out that this isn't
*entirely* accurate, it is possible to determine watts if you know
amps and volts. Or in our case, watt-hours from milliamp-hours and
volts. The calculation is amp * volts = watts, or (mAh * 1000) *
volts = watt-hours.)

According to the Safe Travel site, 8g of 'equivalent lithium content'
delivers approximately 100 watt-hours. So it seems that my 1400mAh
D70 battery has a fraction more than 0.8g of 'equivalent lithium
content'.

The site then says very specifically:

"You can also bring up to two spare batteries
with an aggregate equivalent lithium content
of up to 25 grams, in addition to any batteries
that fall below the 8-gram threshold."

The line "in addition to any batteries that fall below the 8-gram
threshold" would seem to cover us for an open-ended quantity of dSLR
batteries of any kind I've ever seen.

Even if I've made a big error in the above calculations (it seems
pretty dang clear but all things are possible) our batteries are
significantly less beefy than the kind of laptop extender powerpack
or prosumer camcorder batteries the site shows.

I think we're safe. And if someone's still worried, take the formulae
with you, perhaps laid out to look nice 'n' official, and use that to
justify your dozens of spare Li-ion batteries. And remember to be
clear that they aren't Lithium Metal batteries. :-)

Department of Transport?
Department of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, more like...

k
• I would have thought it would be easier and cheaper to force the manufacturers to make safe batteries than have to check millions of passengers each year.
Message 2 of 22 , Jan 1, 2008
I would have thought it would be easier and cheaper to force the
manufacturers to make safe batteries than have to check millions of
passengers each year.

Peter Banks
NZ

--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Keith Martin <keith@...> wrote:
>
> Sometime around 1/1/08 (at 19:26 +0000) Jean-Marc Paratte said:
>
> >Read "GUIDE TO RULES EFFECTIVE JANUARY 1, 2008"
>
><http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html>http://safetravel
.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html
>
> Well, Scooby Doo! For a site that's got so much specific detail
>
> But with a quick look at
>
http://www.camerahacker.com/Definitions/Battery_Capacity_Conversion.sh
tml
> and some basic calculations, it seems that the Li-ion battery in my
> old D70 (7.5V 1400mAh) delivers approximately 10.5 'watt-hours'.
>
> (The maths: Although an electrician would point out that this isn't
> *entirely* accurate, it is possible to determine watts if you know
> amps and volts. Or in our case, watt-hours from milliamp-hours and
> volts. The calculation is amp * volts = watts, or (mAh * 1000) *
> volts = watt-hours.)
>
> According to the Safe Travel site, 8g of 'equivalent lithium
content'
> delivers approximately 100 watt-hours. So it seems that my 1400mAh
> D70 battery has a fraction more than 0.8g of 'equivalent lithium
> content'.
>
> The site then says very specifically:
>
> "You can also bring up to two spare batteries
> with an aggregate equivalent lithium content
> of up to 25 grams, in addition to any batteries
> that fall below the 8-gram threshold."
>
> The line "in addition to any batteries that fall below the 8-gram
> threshold" would seem to cover us for an open-ended quantity of
dSLR
> batteries of any kind I've ever seen.
>
> Even if I've made a big error in the above calculations (it seems
> pretty dang clear but all things are possible) our batteries are
> significantly less beefy than the kind of laptop extender powerpack
> or prosumer camcorder batteries the site shows.
>
> I think we're safe. And if someone's still worried, take the
formulae
> with you, perhaps laid out to look nice 'n' official, and use that
to
> justify your dozens of spare Li-ion batteries. And remember to be
> clear that they aren't Lithium Metal batteries. :-)
>
>
> Department of Transport?
> Department of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, more like...
>
>
> k
>
• Peter, With all due respect. I think it s more about the what national security is in at the present moment.. Shall I suggest a misguided muscle.. I cannot
Message 3 of 22 , Jan 1, 2008
Peter,
With all due respect. I think it's more about the what national security is in at the present moment.. Shall I suggest a misguided muscle..
I cannot have on my on board luggage a flask of B&B.
I have had cuticle scissors confiscated (every time) .. yet they allow 5mm lead pencils and 10 / 12 inch long knitting needles. Duh .. what can I say.. The truth is that if onewanted to get something on the plane I honestly don't feel all their efforts will detour it. .. the presesnt security system would not detour me if I choose to be creative.. I personally belive that it is but a show and tell for shall I say regular people to justify the costs of trying to figure out somethings that are probably beyond their capicity to figure out. OK sorry I'm done..

----- Original Message -----
From: pjb74nz
To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 5:05 PM
Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: new international rule about batteries

I would have thought it would be easier and cheaper to force the
manufacturers to make safe batteries than have to check millions of
passengers each year.

Peter Banks
NZ

--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Keith Martin <keith@...> wrote:
>
> Sometime around 1/1/08 (at 19:26 +0000) Jean-Marc Paratte said:
>
> >Read "GUIDE TO RULES EFFECTIVE JANUARY 1, 2008"
>
><http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html>http://safetravel
.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html
>
> Well, Scooby Doo! For a site that's got so much specific detail
>
> But with a quick look at
>
http://www.camerahacker.com/Definitions/Battery_Capacity_Conversion.sh
tml
> and some basic calculations, it seems that the Li-ion battery in my
> old D70 (7.5V 1400mAh) delivers approximately 10.5 'watt-hours'.
>
> (The maths: Although an electrician would point out that this isn't
> *entirely* accurate, it is possible to determine watts if you know
> amps and volts. Or in our case, watt-hours from milliamp-hours and
> volts. The calculation is amp * volts = watts, or (mAh * 1000) *
> volts = watt-hours.)
>
> According to the Safe Travel site, 8g of 'equivalent lithium
content'
> delivers approximately 100 watt-hours. So it seems that my 1400mAh
> D70 battery has a fraction more than 0.8g of 'equivalent lithium
> content'.
>
> The site then says very specifically:
>
> "You can also bring up to two spare batteries
> with an aggregate equivalent lithium content
> of up to 25 grams, in addition to any batteries
> that fall below the 8-gram threshold."
>
> The line "in addition to any batteries that fall below the 8-gram
> threshold" would seem to cover us for an open-ended quantity of
dSLR
> batteries of any kind I've ever seen.
>
> Even if I've made a big error in the above calculations (it seems
> pretty dang clear but all things are possible) our batteries are
> significantly less beefy than the kind of laptop extender powerpack
> or prosumer camcorder batteries the site shows.
>
> I think we're safe. And if someone's still worried, take the
formulae
> with you, perhaps laid out to look nice 'n' official, and use that
to
> justify your dozens of spare Li-ion batteries. And remember to be
> clear that they aren't Lithium Metal batteries. :-)
>
>
> Department of Transport?
> Department of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, more like...
>
>
> k
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
• I love the way some US media interprets International . For those in Canada check CSTSA web site for restrictions in this country.
Message 4 of 22 , Jan 2, 2008
I love the way some US media interprets "International".

For those in Canada check CSTSA web site for restrictions in this country.

http://www.catsa-acsta.gc.ca/english/travel_voyage/notice_avis/index.shtml

--dmg

--- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Carel <cs@...> wrote:
>
>
> To make air travel even more unpleasant, there is a new rule which
stipulates
> that one has to carry spare lithium batteries in hand luggage, no
more than
> two batteries allowed and they have to be in their original
packaging or in
> a ziplock bag. This is supposed to make them safe from catching
fire, which
> makes one wonder why only two spares are allowed if they wont catch fire
> anyhow when properly packaged.
> http://tinyurl.com/3a5jm2
> Usually I travel with two spare batteries per camera (which makes 4)
and I
> just ordered a universal battery, which can be used for any device that
> works in the range 3.5v-12v.
> http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=919
> I wonder how we are supposed to deal with this. Buy batteries
locally and
> give them away before returning home...?
>
> Carel Struycken
> --
> View this message in context:
> Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
• ... True but a lot of people, both on and off of this list, will enter/exit US airspace and that s when they ll ding you for being the mad terrorist Li-On
Message 5 of 22 , Jan 3, 2008
On 1/1/2008 12:12 PM, Ian Wood rambled on about ...:
> Note that these rules appear to be US-specific - I've not read
> anything about them applying in other countries.

True but a lot of people, both on and off of this list, will enter/exit
US airspace and that's when they'll ding you for being the mad terrorist
Li-On battery bomber and you'll wind up with a stay in Guantanamo Naval
Base that includes free room and board ... indefinitely.

> When I flew from Germany to Amsterdam to the UK last week there
>
> Ian
>
> On 1 Jan 2008, at 19:26, Jean-Marc Paratte wrote:
>
>> Read "GUIDE TO RULES EFFECTIVE JANUARY 1, 2008"
>> http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html

Pat Swovelin
Cool Guy @ Large
• ... Have you ever had a conversation with anyone in the TSA at the security check-in point and/or someone from Homeland Security? It s like talking physics
Message 6 of 22 , Jan 3, 2008
On 1/1/2008 12:42 PM, Keith Martin rambled on about ...:
> Sometime around 1/1/08 (at 19:26 +0000) Jean-Marc Paratte said:
>
>> Read "GUIDE TO RULES EFFECTIVE JANUARY 1, 2008"
>> <http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html>http://safetravel.dot.gov/whats_new_batteries.html
>
> Well, Scooby Doo! For a site that's got so much specific detail
>
> But with a quick look at
> http://www.camerahacker.com/Definitions/Battery_Capacity_Conversion.shtml
> and some basic calculations, it seems that the Li-ion battery in my
> old D70 (7.5V 1400mAh) delivers approximately 10.5 'watt-hours'.
>
> (The maths: Although an electrician would point out that this isn't
> *entirely* accurate, it is possible to determine watts if you know
> amps and volts. Or in our case, watt-hours from milliamp-hours and
> volts. The calculation is amp * volts = watts, or (mAh * 1000) *
> volts = watt-hours.)
>
> According to the Safe Travel site, 8g of 'equivalent lithium content'
> delivers approximately 100 watt-hours. So it seems that my 1400mAh
> D70 battery has a fraction more than 0.8g of 'equivalent lithium
> content'.
>
> The site then says very specifically:
>
> "You can also bring up to two spare batteries
> with an aggregate equivalent lithium content
> of up to 25 grams, in addition to any batteries
> that fall below the 8-gram threshold."
>
> The line "in addition to any batteries that fall below the 8-gram
> threshold" would seem to cover us for an open-ended quantity of dSLR
> batteries of any kind I've ever seen.
>
> Even if I've made a big error in the above calculations (it seems
> pretty dang clear but all things are possible) our batteries are
> significantly less beefy than the kind of laptop extender powerpack
> or prosumer camcorder batteries the site shows.
>
> I think we're safe. And if someone's still worried, take the formulae
> with you, perhaps laid out to look nice 'n' official, and use that to
> justify your dozens of spare Li-ion batteries. And remember to be
> clear that they aren't Lithium Metal batteries. :-)

Have you ever had a conversation with anyone in the TSA at the security
check-in point and/or someone from Homeland Security? It's like talking
physics with your dog. It's a waste of your time and it just irritates
the dog.

Seriously. These people just won't/can't listen to reason.

> Department of Transport?
> Department of Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt, more like...
>
>
> k

Pat Swovelin
Cool Guy @ Large
• ... Well, not someone badged as Homeland Security, but I have had to explain the large, suspicious lump of highly-machined metal and the metal tubes in my
Message 7 of 22 , Jan 4, 2008
Sometime around 3/1/08 (at 22:02 -0800) Pat Swovelin said:

>Have you ever had a conversation with anyone in the TSA at the security
>check-in point and/or someone from Homeland Security?

Well, not someone badged as Homeland Security, but I have had to
explain the large, suspicious lump of highly-machined metal and the
metal tubes in my carry-on bag to jumpy check-in security in San
Francisco a couple of different times.

The 360P Absolute head is a little scary (especially on x-rays) if
you're looking for terrorists and don't have a clue about what it
really is! Tripod parts just compound the problem too... but it was
never worryingly difficult to explain. So far anyway.

If I ever need to explain multiple batteries I'll leave the physics
calculations for later and just say "oh, these all fall into the
official 'small battery' category, they're well under the limit".
Being clear, calm, confident and cooperative (the four Cs) normally
helps a lot.

The fact is, the people checking bags want to stop terrorists and
other criminals, not futz about with honest and cooperative
passengers. I've seen (second-hand) how petty they *can* be if
handled wrongly, but if they're convinced that you're *really*
harmless - and honestly are trying to stay in line - then human
nature will begin to work on your side. Or so my experience has shown
on a number of occasions... :-)

Hmm. Perhaps now is the right point to say "your mileage may vary"?

k
• ... Hmm, I scored good on all 4 Cs when I went to Norway. Yet the sporty looks of my car and the Dutch license plate were enough to have them interrogate me
Message 8 of 22 , Jan 4, 2008
> If I ever need to explain multiple batteries I'll leave the physics
> calculations for later and just say "oh, these all fall into the
> official 'small battery' category, they're well under the limit".
> Being clear, calm, confident and cooperative (the four Cs) normally
> helps a lot.

Hmm,

I scored good on all 4 Cs when I went to Norway. Yet the sporty looks of my car and
the Dutch license plate were enough to have them interrogate me and my girlfriend in
a room while a drug sniffing dog was drooling all over my car and opened bags.
Yuck..

Amsterdams reputation bit me in the backside on this occasion. Ofcourse they didn't
find anything, so after an hour I was on my way to the nearest drycleaner. A bad way

Serge.
• ... They usually seem much more concerned about my nice, new tube of toothpaste! I always end up losing one in each direction because I forgot to check it. I
Message 9 of 22 , Jan 4, 2008
On Jan 4, 2008, at 7:20 AM, Keith Martin wrote:

> >Have you ever had a conversation with anyone in the TSA at the
> security
> >check-in point and/or someone from Homeland Security?
>
> Well, not someone badged as Homeland Security, but I have had to
> explain the large, suspicious lump of highly-machined metal and the
> metal tubes in my carry-on bag to jumpy check-in security in San
> Francisco a couple of different times.

They usually seem much more concerned about my nice, new tube of
toothpaste! I always end up losing one in each direction because I
forgot to check it. I have gone through security with a bag full of
lenses, camera, 360Precision Absolute, computer, palm device, cell
phone, ipod, gps, external hard disk and all the assorted wiring (I
was traveling abroad for 8 months, so I had my life with me) and they
didn't even open the bag. But I had to ditch the toothpaste!

John Riley
johnriley@...
jriley@...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
• ... Yes they do want to stop the bad guys but they re undertrained ill paid cop wannabees with a badge. 2 years ago I flew to Mexico City and before I checked
Message 10 of 22 , Jan 5, 2008
On 1/4/2008 4:20 AM, Keith Martin rambled on about ...:
> The fact is, the people checking bags want to stop terrorists and
> other criminals, not futz about with honest and cooperative
> passengers. I've seen (second-hand) how petty they *can* be if
> handled wrongly, but if they're convinced that you're *really*
> harmless - and honestly are trying to stay in line - then human
> nature will begin to work on your side. Or so my experience has shown
> on a number of occasions... :-)

Yes they do want to stop the bad guys but they're undertrained ill paid
cop wannabees with a badge. 2 years ago I flew to Mexico City and
before I checked my bags I showed a bunch of stuff to the TSA guy at the
X-ray machine to get his approval for everything in my camera bag.
There was maybe 1 item he said I should put in my checked bags. I did
and I had no problems ... until I tried getting on the plane in Mexico
City to come home. They totally freaked when they "found" (like I was
hiding it) my MONSTER 3" crescent wrench. It was considered a tool and
it wasn't getting on the plane with me. My screwdrivers were OK (they
weren't tools). My 6" long Allen wrench was OK (it wasn't a tool). The
3" crescent wrench was a tool would cause the plane to fall out of the
sky or I'd somehow use it to take the nuts off of the cockpit door and
overpower the crew with it (This is a hijacking! Take me to Cuba or
I'll take more nuts off of stuff!) and it wasn't going on the plane with me.

And these guys are less picky than the US security agents are.

Of course they may have been having a bad hair day ... or I was. =8^)

When I got back to the States I asked one of the security guys about it
and he said it's OK here but they have a different list. Swell...

> Hmm. Perhaps now is the right point to say "your mileage may vary"?

It will only vary IF you can get on the plane. =8^)

> k

Pat Swovelin
Cool Guy @ Large
• ... Ah well, a sacrificial tube of toothpaste is a small price to pay. :-) The wetpixel.com site has some more specific info on this subject, and it appears
Message 11 of 22 , Jan 7, 2008
Sometime around 4/1/08 (at 21:46 -0500) John Riley said:

>They usually seem much more concerned about my nice, new tube of
>toothpaste! I always end up losing one in each direction

Ah well, a sacrificial tube of toothpaste is a small price to pay. :-)

The wetpixel.com site has some more specific info on this subject,
and it appears that we are indeed safe; the batteries we deal with
for digital SLRs are not even nearly big enough to be counted in the
restrictions. But all batteries must be transported in carry-on
luggage.

http://tinyurl.com/2zmeay

(It is also true that this still just affects US airspace travel. But
it could easily become a standard restriction in other places too.)

k
• well who has no problems....... can think about how to create some more..... once they found a little Allen key in my camera back..... oh boy.... may be I
Message 12 of 22 , Jan 7, 2008
well who has no problems....... can think about how to create some
more.....

once they found a little Allen key in my camera back..... oh boy....
may be I could put the plane in pieces with it during flight... it
was confiscated.,.....

there is room to invent more stupid stuff by the administration.....

but at least in First and Business you are getting now again real
knifes, not anymore silver cutlery accompanied by a plastic knife....

Willy

On Jan 7, 2008, at 15:27, Keith Martin wrote:

> Sometime around 4/1/08 (at 21:46 -0500) John Riley said:
>
> >They usually seem much more concerned about my nice, new tube of
> >toothpaste! I always end up losing one in each direction
>
> Ah well, a sacrificial tube of toothpaste is a small price to pay. :-)
>
> The wetpixel.com site has some more specific info on this subject,
> and it appears that we are indeed safe; the batteries we deal with
> for digital SLRs are not even nearly big enough to be counted in the
> restrictions. But all batteries must be transported in carry-on
> luggage.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/2zmeay
>
> (It is also true that this still just affects US airspace travel. But
> it could easily become a standard restriction in other places too.)
>
> k
>
>

Willy Kaemena

http://bremen.360cities.net/
http://syria.360cities.net/
http://lisbon.360cities.net/

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
• On 1/7/2008 9:27 AM, Keith Martin s hamster got loose on the keyboard ... It seems that the real problem is the limit of 2 spare batteries per device. As
Message 13 of 22 , Jan 7, 2008
On 1/7/2008 9:27 AM, Keith Martin's hamster got loose on the keyboard
and typed ...:
> Sometime around 4/1/08 (at 21:46 -0500) John Riley said:
>
>> They usually seem much more concerned about my nice, new tube of
>> toothpaste! I always end up losing one in each direction
>
> Ah well, a sacrificial tube of toothpaste is a small price to pay. :-)
>
> The wetpixel.com site has some more specific info on this subject,
> and it appears that we are indeed safe; the batteries we deal with
> for digital SLRs are not even nearly big enough to be counted in the
> restrictions. But all batteries must be transported in carry-on
> luggage.

It seems that the real problem is the limit of 2 spare batteries per
device. As photographers that's the one that'll bite us.

> http://tinyurl.com/2zmeay
>
> (It is also true that this still just affects US airspace travel. But
> it could easily become a standard restriction in other places too.)
>
> k

Pat Swovelin
Cool Guy @ Large
• ... Don t worry, it shouldn t. Not unless you pack mega-huge battery packs! The kind of batteries we use contain just a fraction of the *lower* limit of
Message 14 of 22 , Jan 7, 2008
Sometime around 7/1/08 (at 14:20 -0800) Pat Swovelin said:

>It seems that the real problem is the limit of 2 spare batteries per
>device. As photographers that's the one that'll bite us.

Don't worry, it shouldn't. Not unless you pack mega-huge battery
packs! The kind of batteries we use contain just a fraction of the
*lower* limit of Lithium-ion. Batteries that contain less than 8g are
not included in the restrictions; ours typically contain 1g or less.

Whether you run into trouble with an overzealous security guard is
another matter of course, but the fact is that our batteries are not
meant to be included in the restrictions. That can be demonstrated
using some relatively simple calculations. Simple when you know them
of course!

Some info is here: http://tinyurl.com/2zmeay

k
• ... But if I can t brush my teeth, doesn t that mean the terrorist have already won? (he says, parodying a particular political faction) John Riley
Message 15 of 22 , Jan 7, 2008
On Jan 7, 2008, at 12:27 PM, Keith Martin wrote:

> >They usually seem much more concerned about my nice, new tube of
> >toothpaste! I always end up losing one in each direction
>
> Ah well, a sacrificial tube of toothpaste is a small price to pay. :-)

But if I can't brush my teeth, doesn't that mean the terrorist have
already won? (he says, parodying a particular political faction)

John Riley
johnriley@...
jriley@...

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
• On 1/7/2008 4:02 PM, John Riley s hamster got loose on the keyboard and ... No, it means you re one of them. Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa! Pat Swovelin Cool
Message 16 of 22 , Jan 7, 2008
On 1/7/2008 4:02 PM, John Riley's hamster got loose on the keyboard and
typed ...:
>>> They usually seem much more concerned about my nice, new tube of
>>> toothpaste! I always end up losing one in each direction
>> Ah well, a sacrificial tube of toothpaste is a small price to pay. :-)
>
> But if I can't brush my teeth, doesn't that mean the terrorist have
> already won? (he says, parodying a particular political faction)

No, it means you're one of them. Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!

Pat Swovelin
Cool Guy @ Large
• Hi Pat, ... I think you are misinterpreting the restrictions. It is a limit of two batteries which have a Li-On content above 8mg and below 25g with a 25g
Message 17 of 22 , Jan 8, 2008
Hi Pat,

On 1/7/08, Pat Swovelin <Panoramas@...> wrote:
>
> It seems that the real problem is the limit of 2 spare batteries per
> device. As photographers that's the one that'll bite us.

I think you are misinterpreting the restrictions. It is a limit of
two batteries which have a Li-On content above 8mg and below 25g with
a 25g limit aggregate. And of course, the 25g limit applies as a

It bears to remember that cellphone batteries are often Li-On. And so
are many rechargeable AA and AAA batteries, plus many (if not all)
little cell batteries (coin-size) contain lithium. Also, those
uber-expensive Duracell and Energizer (and other brands) that claim
incredible long life often are lithium powered. All of these need to
be taken into account besides just laptop and camera batteries.

If you are going to travel, look for NiMH batteries which last longer,
charge faster, and have much less a problem with memory development
(though you should never let a rechargeable battery ever drain all the
way down). IIRC, those aren't a problem.

Lastly, keep an eye out for sealed lead-acid batteries which I believe
are not allowed whatsoever on carry-on, and probably not allowed on
checked baggage either. Awesome little batteries, but certainly I
would consider them more hazardous than Li-On.

Cheers,
Robert~

--
Mid GA: 478-599-1300
ATL: 678-438-6955
garealtours.com
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