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RE: FW: [PanoToolsNG] calibrating a lens/teleconverter combo using PTGui

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  • Yoram Bernet
    Thanks all for your help... So, Jim... I ve followed your pointers here. I have the two images in the control point tab. I entered three series of points: 5
    Message 1 of 13 , Dec 31, 2007
    • 0 Attachment
      Thanks all for your help...

      So, Jim... I've followed your pointers here. I have the two images in the
      control point tab. I entered three series of points:

      5 points on one line (type set to 'line 3')
      5 on another line (type set to 'line 4')
      and 5 on the last line (type set to 'line 5').

      I ran the optimizer and got the report that the average control point
      distances are all '0' and that this is "too good to be true" :-). Also,
      FoV=39.12, a=3.02, b=7.789 and c=1.411.

      When I looked at the preview, my image was tiny, inverted and bore a strange
      resemblance to the source, yet had all sorts of weird lines swapped. Those
      lines that were identifiable were very straight.

      Could it be that I am setting CPs wrong?

      I set CPs by clicking in one pane, then accepting the PTGui suggestion for
      the other pane. I do this for five points along what should be a straight
      line, name them all 'line N', then move on to set the CPs for the next line.

      I'm baffled...

      Y

      -----Original Message-----
      From: Jim Watters [mailto:jwatters@...]
      Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 6:22 PM
      To: Yoram Bernet
      Subject: Re: FW: [PanoToolsNG] calibrating a lens/teleconverter combo using
      PTGui

      On the Control Point tab you should have the same image on both the left
      and right.
      in the CP type drop down list you should have the option to choose "New
      Line (t3)"
      It should show up in the list of points on the right side as Line 3, if
      not right click on the type and correct using the pop-up menu.
      You need to add at least 4 points to make a line.
      To add points to a new line, change CP type to New Line (t4)


      Shift lenses are a little different to calibrate compared to others.
      The way panotools works you will end up will different values for
      different shifts if you do not modify the size of the image.
      One way to compensate for this is to create a canvas that is larger and
      place the image into the correct spot.
      See http://www.epaperpress.com/ptlens/ Shift lens

      I am pretty sure there is an article in the wiki that I can not find
      that has more up to date images.

      Best of luck. Give it a another try. Continue to post to the group with
      your questions.

      Jim



      Yoram Bernet wrote:
      >
      > Thanks Jim.
      >
      > I feel like I'm flying by the seat of my pants here. It may be that I
      > just need to spend a weekend reading more of the related documents in
      > further depth. In any case, here goes:
      >
      > In PTGui, menu - Tools | Options | Panotools
      > Ensure PTStitcher / Nora / PTMender application is correct.
      >
      > */[/**/Yoram Bernet/**/] /*
      >
      > */It was blank. I gave it the path to ptstitcher.exe but not sure if
      > this is right./*
      >
      >
      > In PTGui on Optimizer tab, Optimize using : "Panorama Tools Optimizer"
      >
      > If this does not work send me the images directly so I can see.
      >
      > */[/**/Yoram Bernet/**/] Here are the 2 guis (the first is the one I
      > have. The 2^nd is from the tutorial):/*
      >
      > *//*
      >
      > *//*
      >
      > I started out trying to derive the coefficients to calibrate a lens
      > combo. As an interim step, I'm just trying to take an image and
      > correct it based on a couple of known straight lines in the image. I'm
      > trying to do so by following Erik's tutorial
      > (http://erik-krause.de/index.htm?./verzeichnung/distort_en.htm).
      >
      > If I need to just do a lot more studying before bugging you for help -
      > let me know. Regardles, I really appreciate your assistance. I'm about
      > to log off for the w/e.
      >
      > Happy New Year!
      >
      > Yoram
      >
      > Jim
      >
      > Yoram Bernet wrote:
      > > Erik and Jim Watters, thanks to you both.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > I'm still stuck. I am following the tutorial that Erik pointed me
      > towards.
      > > I've downloaded the latest pano12.dll that Jim pointed me towards
      > and yet I
      > > seem to have a substantially different version of the Gui than the
      > one in
      > > the tutorial. In particular, it does not allow me to designate control
      > > points of type 'Line' (just vertical or horizontal line) and
      > miscellaneous
      > > other differences. Here's the gui that the tutorial shows:
      > >
      > >
      > > and here's the gui that I have:
      > >
      > >
      > > Obviously, I have a different version of (probably) PTGui. I'm running
      > > version 7.5 (according to the 'Help/About'.
      > >
      > >
      > > ANy suggestions on how I can get the straight line control points out of
      > > this version of PTGui? Or alternatively - how do I get the version
      > of PTGui
      > > that supports the slcps?
      > >
      > >
      > > Many thanks and my apologies for the noise on the list. Hopefully -
      > this is
      > > useful to others as well.
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > > Yoram
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      > --
      > Jim Watters
      >
      > Yahoo ID: j1vvy ymsgr:sendIM?j1vvy
      > jwatters @ photocreations . ca
      > http://photocreations.ca <http://photocreations.ca>
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
      >
      >


      --
      Jim Watters

      Yahoo ID: j1vvy ymsgr:sendIM?j1vvy
      jwatters @ photocreations . ca
      http://photocreations.ca
    • Yoram Bernet
      OK -I think I got it. It seems that the mistake I made was by accepting the suggestions offered by PTGui for the 2nd CP of each pair. This time, I placed the
      Message 2 of 13 , Dec 31, 2007
      • 0 Attachment
        OK -I think I got it. It seems that the mistake I made was by accepting the
        suggestions offered by PTGui for the 2nd CP of each pair. This time, I
        placed the second CP of each pair somewhere far away on what is supposed to
        be the same line - so - if the line I am trying to straighten is vertical -
        I'd place the first CP at say the top of the line (in the right pane) and
        the second of the pair at the bottom of the line (in the left pane).



        This leads me to the question - are straight line CPs processed in pairs
        (per the CP numbers that show up in the images)? Or - are they processed in
        sets (with all CPs that have the same line number/name in the 'Type' field
        on the table below the images members of a single set)? Is there a rule of
        thumb regarding where to designate the 2nd CP of each pair (clearly, very
        close causes problems - that's what caused the optimizer to say 'too good to
        be true').



        Fascinating.



        -----Original Message-----
        From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of Yoram Bernet
        Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 10:29 AM
        To: 'Jim Watters'
        Cc: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: FW: [PanoToolsNG] calibrating a lens/teleconverter combo using
        PTGui



        Thanks all for your help...

        So, Jim... I've followed your pointers here. I have the two images in the
        control point tab. I entered three series of points:

        5 points on one line (type set to 'line 3')
        5 on another line (type set to 'line 4')
        and 5 on the last line (type set to 'line 5').

        I ran the optimizer and got the report that the average control point
        distances are all '0' and that this is "too good to be true" :-). Also,
        FoV=39.12, a=3.02, b=7.789 and c=1.411.

        When I looked at the preview, my image was tiny, inverted and bore a strange
        resemblance to the source, yet had all sorts of weird lines swapped. Those
        lines that were identifiable were very straight.

        Could it be that I am setting CPs wrong?

        I set CPs by clicking in one pane, then accepting the PTGui suggestion for
        the other pane. I do this for five points along what should be a straight
        line, name them all 'line N', then move on to set the CPs for the next line.

        I'm baffled...

        Y

        -----Original Message-----
        From: Jim Watters [mailto:jwatters@photocreat
        <mailto:jwatters%40photocreations.ca> ions.ca]
        Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 6:22 PM
        To: Yoram Bernet
        Subject: Re: FW: [PanoToolsNG] calibrating a lens/teleconverter combo using
        PTGui

        On the Control Point tab you should have the same image on both the left
        and right.
        in the CP type drop down list you should have the option to choose "New
        Line (t3)"
        It should show up in the list of points on the right side as Line 3, if
        not right click on the type and correct using the pop-up menu.
        You need to add at least 4 points to make a line.
        To add points to a new line, change CP type to New Line (t4)

        Shift lenses are a little different to calibrate compared to others.
        The way panotools works you will end up will different values for
        different shifts if you do not modify the size of the image.
        One way to compensate for this is to create a canvas that is larger and
        place the image into the correct spot.
        See http://www.epaperpr <http://www.epaperpress.com/ptlens/> ess.com/ptlens/
        Shift lens

        I am pretty sure there is an article in the wiki that I can not find
        that has more up to date images.

        Best of luck. Give it a another try. Continue to post to the group with
        your questions.

        Jim

        Yoram Bernet wrote:
        >
        > Thanks Jim.
        >
        > I feel like I'm flying by the seat of my pants here. It may be that I
        > just need to spend a weekend reading more of the related documents in
        > further depth. In any case, here goes:
        >
        > In PTGui, menu - Tools | Options | Panotools
        > Ensure PTStitcher / Nora / PTMender application is correct.
        >
        > */[/**/Yoram Bernet/**/] /*
        >
        > */It was blank. I gave it the path to ptstitcher.exe but not sure if
        > this is right./*
        >
        >
        > In PTGui on Optimizer tab, Optimize using : "Panorama Tools Optimizer"
        >
        > If this does not work send me the images directly so I can see.
        >
        > */[/**/Yoram Bernet/**/] Here are the 2 guis (the first is the one I
        > have. The 2^nd is from the tutorial):/*
        >
        > *//*
        >
        > *//*
        >
        > I started out trying to derive the coefficients to calibrate a lens
        > combo. As an interim step, I'm just trying to take an image and
        > correct it based on a couple of known straight lines in the image. I'm
        > trying to do so by following Erik's tutorial
        > (http://erik-
        <http://erik-krause.de/index.htm?./verzeichnung/distort_en.htm>
        krause.de/index.htm?./verzeichnung/distort_en.htm).
        >
        > If I need to just do a lot more studying before bugging you for help -
        > let me know. Regardles, I really appreciate your assistance. I'm about
        > to log off for the w/e.
        >
        > Happy New Year!
        >
        > Yoram
        >
        > Jim
        >
        > Yoram Bernet wrote:
        > > Erik and Jim Watters, thanks to you both.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > I'm still stuck. I am following the tutorial that Erik pointed me
        > towards.
        > > I've downloaded the latest pano12.dll that Jim pointed me towards
        > and yet I
        > > seem to have a substantially different version of the Gui than the
        > one in
        > > the tutorial. In particular, it does not allow me to designate control
        > > points of type 'Line' (just vertical or horizontal line) and
        > miscellaneous
        > > other differences. Here's the gui that the tutorial shows:
        > >
        > >
        > > and here's the gui that I have:
        > >
        > >
        > > Obviously, I have a different version of (probably) PTGui. I'm running
        > > version 7.5 (according to the 'Help/About'.
        > >
        > >
        > > ANy suggestions on how I can get the straight line control points out of
        > > this version of PTGui? Or alternatively - how do I get the version
        > of PTGui
        > > that supports the slcps?
        > >
        > >
        > > Many thanks and my apologies for the noise on the list. Hopefully -
        > this is
        > > useful to others as well.
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > Yoram
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        > --
        > Jim Watters
        >
        > Yahoo ID: j1vvy ymsgr:sendIM?j1vvy
        > jwatters @ photocreations . ca
        > http://photocreatio <http://photocreations.ca> ns.ca <http://photocreatio
        <http://photocreations.ca> ns.ca>
        >
        >
        >
        > ----------------------------------------------------------
        >
        >

        --
        Jim Watters

        Yahoo ID: j1vvy ymsgr:sendIM?j1vvy
        jwatters @ photocreations . ca
        http://photocreatio <http://photocreations.ca> ns.ca





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jim Watters
        The values for a, b, & c should not be that large. They should be below 0.1 for a decent lens anyway. - In and Out FoV should be set the same. Do not
        Message 3 of 13 , Dec 31, 2007
        • 0 Attachment
          The values for a, b, & c should not be that large. They should be below
          0.1 for a decent lens anyway.

          - In and Out FoV should be set the same. Do not optimize.
          - Setting a, b, c to 0
          - Set the "Panorama Settings" | Projection to Rectilinear("flat")
          - Only optimizing b first.
          - Then add d & e (the H & V offsets).
          - Then add a & c

          If you are still getting strange results add some more lines.

          Jim

          Yoram Bernet wrote:
          > Thanks all for your help...
          >
          > So, Jim... I've followed your pointers here. I have the two images in the
          > control point tab. I entered three series of points:
          >
          > 5 points on one line (type set to 'line 3')
          > 5 on another line (type set to 'line 4')
          > and 5 on the last line (type set to 'line 5').
          >
          > I ran the optimizer and got the report that the average control point
          > distances are all '0' and that this is "too good to be true" :-). Also,
          > FoV=39.12, a=3.02, b=7.789 and c=1.411.
          >
          > When I looked at the preview, my image was tiny, inverted and bore a strange
          > resemblance to the source, yet had all sorts of weird lines swapped. Those
          > lines that were identifiable were very straight.
          >
          > Could it be that I am setting CPs wrong?
          >
          > I set CPs by clicking in one pane, then accepting the PTGui suggestion for
          > the other pane. I do this for five points along what should be a straight
          > line, name them all 'line N', then move on to set the CPs for the next line.
          >
          > I'm baffled...
          >
          > Y
          >
          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: Jim Watters [mailto:jwatters@...]
          > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 6:22 PM
          > To: Yoram Bernet
          > Subject: Re: FW: [PanoToolsNG] calibrating a lens/teleconverter combo using
          > PTGui
          >
          > On the Control Point tab you should have the same image on both the left
          > and right.
          > in the CP type drop down list you should have the option to choose "New
          > Line (t3)"
          > It should show up in the list of points on the right side as Line 3, if
          > not right click on the type and correct using the pop-up menu.
          > You need to add at least 4 points to make a line.
          > To add points to a new line, change CP type to New Line (t4)
          >
          >
          > Shift lenses are a little different to calibrate compared to others.
          > The way panotools works you will end up will different values for
          > different shifts if you do not modify the size of the image.
          > One way to compensate for this is to create a canvas that is larger and
          > place the image into the correct spot.
          > See http://www.epaperpress.com/ptlens/ Shift lens
          >
          > I am pretty sure there is an article in the wiki that I can not find
          > that has more up to date images.
          >
          > Best of luck. Give it a another try. Continue to post to the group with
          > your questions.
          >
          > Jim
          >
          >
          >
          > Yoram Bernet wrote:
          >
          >> Thanks Jim.
          >>
          >> I feel like I'm flying by the seat of my pants here. It may be that I
          >> just need to spend a weekend reading more of the related documents in
          >> further depth. In any case, here goes:
          >>
          >> In PTGui, menu - Tools | Options | Panotools
          >> Ensure PTStitcher / Nora / PTMender application is correct.
          >>
          >> */[/**/Yoram Bernet/**/] /*
          >>
          >> */It was blank. I gave it the path to ptstitcher.exe but not sure if
          >> this is right./*
          >>
          >>
          >> In PTGui on Optimizer tab, Optimize using : "Panorama Tools Optimizer"
          >>
          >> If this does not work send me the images directly so I can see.
          >>
          >> */[/**/Yoram Bernet/**/] Here are the 2 guis (the first is the one I
          >> have. The 2^nd is from the tutorial):/*
          >>
          >> *//*
          >>
          >> *//*
          >>
          >> I started out trying to derive the coefficients to calibrate a lens
          >> combo. As an interim step, I'm just trying to take an image and
          >> correct it based on a couple of known straight lines in the image. I'm
          >> trying to do so by following Erik's tutorial
          >> (http://erik-krause.de/index.htm?./verzeichnung/distort_en.htm).
          >>
          >> If I need to just do a lot more studying before bugging you for help -
          >> let me know. Regardles, I really appreciate your assistance. I'm about
          >> to log off for the w/e.
          >>
          >> Happy New Year!
          >>
          >> Yoram
          >>
          >> Jim
          >>
          >> Yoram Bernet wrote:
          >>
          >>> Erik and Jim Watters, thanks to you both.
          >>> I'm still stuck. I am following the tutorial that Erik pointed me towards.
          >>> I've downloaded the latest pano12.dll that Jim pointed me towards and yet I
          >>> seem to have a substantially different version of the Gui than the one in
          >>> the tutorial. In particular, it does not allow me to designate control
          >>> points of type 'Line' (just vertical or horizontal line) and miscellaneous
          >>> other differences. Here's the gui that the tutorial shows: and here's the
          >>> gui that I have:
          >>>
          >>> Obviously, I have a different version of (probably) PTGui. I'm running
          >>> version 7.5 (according to the 'Help/About'.
          >>>
          >>> ANy suggestions on how I can get the straight line control points out of
          >>> this version of PTGui? Or alternatively - how do I get the version of PTGui
          >>> that supports the slcps?
          >>>
          >>> Many thanks and my apologies for the noise on the list. Hopefully - this is
          >>> useful to others as well.
          >>>
          >>> Yoram
          >>>

          --
          Jim Watters

          Yahoo ID: j1vvy ymsgr:sendIM?j1vvy
          jwatters @ photocreations . ca
          http://photocreations.ca
        • Jim Watters
          ... Yes that would do it. The matching point algorithm does not take into account that is is a line you are trying to match but finds the exact same spot in
          Message 4 of 13 , Dec 31, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Yoram Bernet wrote:
            > OK -I think I got it. It seems that the mistake I made was by accepting the
            > suggestions offered by PTGui for the 2nd CP of each pair. This time, I
            > placed the second CP of each pair somewhere far away on what is supposed to
            > be the same line - so - if the line I am trying to straighten is vertical -
            > I'd place the first CP at say the top of the line (in the right pane) and
            > the second of the pair at the bottom of the line (in the left pane).
            >
            Yes that would do it. The matching point algorithm does not take into
            account that is is a line you are trying to match but finds the exact
            same spot in the second image.


            > This leads me to the question - are straight line CPs processed in pairs
            > (per the CP numbers that show up in the images)? Or - are they processed in
            > sets (with all CPs that have the same line number/name in the 'Type' field
            > on the table below the images members of a single set)? Is there a rule of
            > thumb regarding where to designate the 2nd CP of each pair (clearly, very
            > close causes problems - that's what caused the optimizer to say 'too good to
            > be true').
            >
            I not sure how much this matters but....
            Going by memory after looking at the code many months ago I believe it
            is something like this.
            lines are evaluated in groups of 4 points. The first 2 points make a
            line, the other points are evaluated as to their distance from that
            line. All errors are added up and if it is better than the previous
            error then the optimizer stores these settings as the current best, but
            continues on evaluating many more variations.
            Although the algorithm could be changed to evaluate all the points of a
            line at once the overall difference of arriving at the best optimization
            probably will not change.
            The UI and script are created to add points in pairs. So this is how
            straight lines have been adapted to work within those constraints.

            As far as best practices for placing line controls points.
            See: http://www.panotools.org/mailarchive/msg/32789#msg32789
            and http://epaperpress.com/ptlens/index.html Calibration | Target

            - The first two points of a line should be at the ends of the line.
            - Add another 4 to 6 points ( 2 or 3 pairs)
            - One line should be at the edge of the image.
            - One line should be about 1/6 to 1/4 from the edge.

            --
            Jim Watters

            Yahoo ID: j1vvy ymsgr:sendIM?j1vvy
            jwatters @ photocreations . ca
            http://photocreations.ca
          • Joergen Geerds
            i m not sure if i follow completely, but i think you are mixing regular control points with line control points. regular control points are in image pairs,
            Message 5 of 13 , Dec 31, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              i'm not sure if i follow completely, but i think you
              are mixing regular control points with line control
              points.
              regular control points are in image pairs, image A is
              left, image B is right, and you sent control points on
              elements that are the same on each side.

              line control points are to be set in the same image,
              image A is left and image A is right, and then you
              click on the beginning of a line in one side, and on
              the end of a line of the other. usually vertical lines
              are just fine, horizontals are rarely used.

              i hope i understood your problem right, and then this
              should solve your issue.

              happy new year

              joergen

              --- Yoram Bernet <yoram@...> wrote:

              > OK -I think I got it. It seems that the mistake I
              > made was by accepting the
              > suggestions offered by PTGui for the 2nd CP of each
              > pair. This time, I
              > placed the second CP of each pair somewhere far away
              > on what is supposed to
              > be the same line - so - if the line I am trying to
              > straighten is vertical -
              > I'd place the first CP at say the top of the line
              > (in the right pane) and
              > the second of the pair at the bottom of the line (in
              > the left pane).
              >
              >
              >
              > This leads me to the question - are straight line
              > CPs processed in pairs
              > (per the CP numbers that show up in the images)? Or
              > - are they processed in
              > sets (with all CPs that have the same line
              > number/name in the 'Type' field
              > on the table below the images members of a single
              > set)? Is there a rule of
              > thumb regarding where to designate the 2nd CP of
              > each pair (clearly, very
              > close causes problems - that's what caused the
              > optimizer to say 'too good to
              > be true').
              >
              >
              >
              > Fascinating.
              >
              >
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
              > [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
              > Behalf Of Yoram Bernet
              > Sent: Monday, December 31, 2007 10:29 AM
              > To: 'Jim Watters'
              > Cc: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: FW: [PanoToolsNG] calibrating a
              > lens/teleconverter combo using
              > PTGui
              >
              >
              >
              > Thanks all for your help...
              >
              > So, Jim... I've followed your pointers here. I have
              > the two images in the
              > control point tab. I entered three series of points:
              >
              > 5 points on one line (type set to 'line 3')
              > 5 on another line (type set to 'line 4')
              > and 5 on the last line (type set to 'line 5').
              >
              > I ran the optimizer and got the report that the
              > average control point
              > distances are all '0' and that this is "too good to
              > be true" :-). Also,
              > FoV=39.12, a=3.02, b=7.789 and c=1.411.
              >
              > When I looked at the preview, my image was tiny,
              > inverted and bore a strange
              > resemblance to the source, yet had all sorts of
              > weird lines swapped. Those
              > lines that were identifiable were very straight.
              >
              > Could it be that I am setting CPs wrong?
              >
              > I set CPs by clicking in one pane, then accepting
              > the PTGui suggestion for
              > the other pane. I do this for five points along what
              > should be a straight
              > line, name them all 'line N', then move on to set
              > the CPs for the next line.
              >
              > I'm baffled...
              >
              > Y
              >
              > -----Original Message-----
              > From: Jim Watters [mailto:jwatters@photocreat
              > <mailto:jwatters%40photocreations.ca> ions.ca]
              > Sent: Friday, December 28, 2007 6:22 PM
              > To: Yoram Bernet
              > Subject: Re: FW: [PanoToolsNG] calibrating a
              > lens/teleconverter combo using
              > PTGui
              >
              > On the Control Point tab you should have the same
              > image on both the left
              > and right.
              > in the CP type drop down list you should have the
              > option to choose "New
              > Line (t3)"
              > It should show up in the list of points on the right
              > side as Line 3, if
              > not right click on the type and correct using the
              > pop-up menu.
              > You need to add at least 4 points to make a line.
              > To add points to a new line, change CP type to New
              > Line (t4)
              >
              > Shift lenses are a little different to calibrate
              > compared to others.
              > The way panotools works you will end up will
              > different values for
              > different shifts if you do not modify the size of
              > the image.
              > One way to compensate for this is to create a canvas
              > that is larger and
              > place the image into the correct spot.
              > See http://www.epaperpr
              > <http://www.epaperpress.com/ptlens/> ess.com/ptlens/
              > Shift lens
              >
              > I am pretty sure there is an article in the wiki
              > that I can not find
              > that has more up to date images.
              >
              > Best of luck. Give it a another try. Continue to
              > post to the group with
              > your questions.
              >
              > Jim
              >
              > Yoram Bernet wrote:
              > >
              > > Thanks Jim.
              > >
              > > I feel like I'm flying by the seat of my pants
              > here. It may be that I
              > > just need to spend a weekend reading more of the
              > related documents in
              > > further depth. In any case, here goes:
              > >
              > > In PTGui, menu - Tools | Options | Panotools
              > > Ensure PTStitcher / Nora / PTMender application is
              > correct.
              > >
              > > */[/**/Yoram Bernet/**/] /*
              > >
              > > */It was blank. I gave it the path to
              > ptstitcher.exe but not sure if
              > > this is right./*
              > >
              > >
              > > In PTGui on Optimizer tab, Optimize using :
              > "Panorama Tools Optimizer"
              > >
              > > If this does not work send me the images directly
              > so I can see.
              > >
              > > */[/**/Yoram Bernet/**/] Here are the 2 guis (the
              > first is the one I
              > > have. The 2^nd is from the tutorial):/*
              > >
              > > *//*
              > >
              > > *//*
              > >
              > > I started out trying to derive the coefficients to
              > calibrate a lens
              > > combo. As an interim step, I'm just trying to take
              > an image and
              > > correct it based on a couple of known straight
              > lines in the image. I'm
              > > trying to do so by following Erik's tutorial
              > > (http://erik-
              >
              <http://erik-krause.de/index.htm?./verzeichnung/distort_en.htm>
              > krause.de/index.htm?./verzeichnung/distort_en.htm).
              > >
              > > If I need to just do a lot more studying before
              > bugging you for help -
              > > let me know. Regardles, I really appreciate your
              > assistance. I'm about
              > > to log off for the w/e.
              > >
              > > Happy New Year!
              > >
              > > Yoram
              > >
              > > Jim
              > >
              > > Yoram Bernet wrote:
              > > > Erik and Jim Watters, thanks to you both.
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > I'm still stuck. I am following the tutorial
              > that Erik pointed me
              > > towards.
              > > > I've downloaded the latest pano12.dll that Jim
              > pointed me towards
              > > and yet I
              > > > seem to have a substantially different version
              > of the Gui than the
              > > one in
              >
              === message truncated ===



              ____________________________________________________________________________________
              Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page.
              http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
            • Serge Maandag
              ... Line type control points are processed as set. The way they work is as follows: You can define a line (within a panotools script) by starting it with t3,
              Message 6 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
              • 0 Attachment
                > This leads me to the question - are straight line CPs processed in pairs
                > (per the CP numbers that show up in the images)? Or - are they processed in
                > sets (with all CPs that have the same line number/name in the 'Type' field
                > on the table below the images members of a single set)? Is there a rule of
                > thumb regarding where to designate the 2nd CP of each pair (clearly, very
                > close causes problems - that's what caused the optimizer to say 'too good to
                > be true').

                Line type control points are processed as set. The way they work is as follows:

                You can define a line (within a panotools script) by starting it with t3, t4 or any
                t followed by a number > 2. A line consists of 2 or more line segments. A line
                segment is defined by 2 coordinates, start and end of the segment.
                The optimizer will try to have all segments line up on one straight line.

                The way Joost added line type control points to PTGui might be a bit confusing.
                In most cases you just define 2 segments and want them to line up. In that case the
                logical way would be to click twice in the left pane (and thus define segment1) and
                then click twice in the right pane (defining segment2).

                Instead, Joost chose to have the user alternately click the left and right panes.
                You are doing exactly the same thing as above and in the same order, but you just
                keep switching panes. This means you can define more than 2 segments to define a
                line. This can be handy for long overhead wires. Just select the appropriate line in
                the "CP type" dropdown box before clicking left and right.

                To get the best results, always try to define your segments as big as possible. Be
                cautious though: When optimizing with line type control points, the optimizer aims
                to have the segments line up in the output image. Depending on the type of output
                projection, that may be valid or not at all!

                With rectilinear (flat) projection, all straight lines in real life are straight in
                the image, so it will be valid. With cylindrical or equirectangular projection it's
                only valid for vertical lines and for the horizon. If the line segments are close to
                each other it may still work or it may help to temporarily switch the output
                projection to rectilinear during the optimization.

                Serge.
                http://360photo.org/
              • Yoram Bernet
                Serge, thank you and thanks also to all the others who have been educating me on this. So ,Serge, this is really helpful, but it does change my understanding
                Message 7 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Serge, thank you and thanks also to all the others who have been educating
                  me on this. So ,Serge, this is really helpful, but it does change my
                  understanding of how this works. Let me try.



                  Let's say that I have a horizontal line in the image that is significantly
                  curved due to barrel distortion. I had originally, been designating point
                  pairs by clicking at opposite ends of the line (for the first pair of a
                  line), then at various random midpoints for subsequent pairs (thinking that
                  the algorithm tries to minimize the distance of all points from the line
                  designated by the first and second CPs).



                  Now based on what you're saying, it seems that I should do this differently.
                  Specifically - it seems that I should designate the first point at one end
                  of the line (say the left) and the second point at a point (probably roughly
                  midway between the two ends of the image) at which the line is maximally
                  distorted. That does it for the first pair. For the second pair, I should
                  designate a point at the opposite far end of the line (the right) and the
                  second point of the pair near to the second point of the first pair (the
                  point of maximum distortion). - Is this correct? Wouldn't I then want to
                  proceed by designating lots of subsegments along the line that I eventually
                  want rendered straight?



                  (Strictly speaking, I guess that what I'm calling the point of max
                  distortion is actually the point of least distortion and the points near the
                  edge of the image are the points of max distortion. )



                  Another question - once I correct for barrel distortion, using this method,
                  the nextproblem that shows up is perspective distortion (even though I've
                  used a PC lens, there is some perspective distortion due to not having the
                  sensor plane exactly parallel to the subject). To fix this, I'd like to be
                  able to designate certain line segs and say "these should all be horizontal"
                  and other segs and say "these should all be vertical". Is this done using
                  the horizontal and vertical line types in the dialog box (t1 and t2)? Can I
                  correct for both barrel distortion and perspective distortion in the same
                  step or do you recommend doing so iteratively?



                  Many thanks and Happy New Year!



                  Y



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                  Behalf Of Serge Maandag
                  Sent: Tuesday, January 01, 2008 12:29 PM
                  To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: FW: [PanoToolsNG] calibrating a lens/teleconverter combo using
                  PTGui



                  > This leads me to the question - are straight line CPs processed in pairs
                  > (per the CP numbers that show up in the images)? Or - are they processed
                  in
                  > sets (with all CPs that have the same line number/name in the 'Type' field
                  > on the table below the images members of a single set)? Is there a rule of
                  > thumb regarding where to designate the 2nd CP of each pair (clearly, very
                  > close causes problems - that's what caused the optimizer to say 'too good
                  to
                  > be true').

                  Line type control points are processed as set. The way they work is as
                  follows:

                  You can define a line (within a panotools script) by starting it with t3, t4
                  or any
                  t followed by a number > 2. A line consists of 2 or more line segments. A
                  line
                  segment is defined by 2 coordinates, start and end of the segment.
                  The optimizer will try to have all segments line up on one straight line.

                  The way Joost added line type control points to PTGui might be a bit
                  confusing.
                  In most cases you just define 2 segments and want them to line up. In that
                  case the
                  logical way would be to click twice in the left pane (and thus define
                  segment1) and
                  then click twice in the right pane (defining segment2).

                  Instead, Joost chose to have the user alternately click the left and right
                  panes.
                  You are doing exactly the same thing as above and in the same order, but you
                  just
                  keep switching panes. This means you can define more than 2 segments to
                  define a
                  line. This can be handy for long overhead wires. Just select the appropriate
                  line in
                  the "CP type" dropdown box before clicking left and right.

                  To get the best results, always try to define your segments as big as
                  possible. Be
                  cautious though: When optimizing with line type control points, the
                  optimizer aims
                  to have the segments line up in the output image. Depending on the type of
                  output
                  projection, that may be valid or not at all!

                  With rectilinear (flat) projection, all straight lines in real life are
                  straight in
                  the image, so it will be valid. With cylindrical or equirectangular
                  projection it's
                  only valid for vertical lines and for the horizon. If the line segments are
                  close to
                  each other it may still work or it may help to temporarily switch the output
                  projection to rectilinear during the optimization.

                  Serge.
                  http://360photo. <http://360photo.org/> org/





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Serge Maandag
                  ... Yes, totally. ... No, The three coefficients a, b and that the panotools optimizer uses can only correct barrel and pincushion distortion. The two line
                  Message 8 of 13 , Jan 1, 2008
                  • 0 Attachment
                    > Serge, thank you and thanks also to all the others who have been educating
                    > Now based on what you're saying, it seems that I should do this differently.
                    > Specifically - it seems that I should designate the first point at one end
                    > of the line (say the left) and the second point at a point (probably roughly
                    > midway between the two ends of the image) at which the line is maximally
                    > distorted. That does it for the first pair. For the second pair, I should
                    > designate a point at the opposite far end of the line (the right) and the
                    > second point of the pair near to the second point of the first pair (the
                    > point of maximum distortion). - Is this correct?

                    Yes, totally.

                    > Wouldn't I then want to
                    > proceed by designating lots of subsegments along the line that I eventually
                    > want rendered straight?

                    No, The three coefficients a, b and that the panotools optimizer uses can only
                    correct barrel and pincushion distortion. The two line segments are enough info for
                    the optimizer to do that. Subsegments would only be useful to fix a wobbly line. But
                    that wouldn't be possible anyway with only a,b and c.

                    The less segments you define, the less confusing it is to the optimizer. If I have
                    to correct a barrel shaped box, I define a line (consisting of 2 line segments) on
                    each side of the box.

                    > Another question - once I correct for barrel distortion, using this method,
                    > the nextproblem that shows up is perspective distortion (even though I've
                    > used a PC lens, there is some perspective distortion due to not having the
                    > sensor plane exactly parallel to the subject). To fix this, I'd like to be
                    > able to designate certain line segs and say "these should all be horizontal"
                    > and other segs and say "these should all be vertical". Is this done using
                    > the horizontal and vertical line types in the dialog box (t1 and t2)? Can I
                    > correct for both barrel distortion and perspective distortion in the same
                    > step or do you recommend doing so iteratively?

                    Correct and yes, the optimizer can do it in one go. There are occasions where the
                    optimizer goes haywire, but that rarely happens. If it does, you'll notice. Then you
                    can always:

                    - set t1/t2 points
                    - optimize yaw pitch and roll
                    - remove the the t1/t2 points and set line type points
                    - turn off yaw pitch and roll optimization
                    - optimize a, b and c (or at least b)

                    Happy newyear to you to!

                    Serge.
                    http://360photo.org/
                  • Erik Krause
                    ... Sorry, this is wrong. The use of three coefficients (a, b and c) was especially necessary to allow the correction of wavy (or wobbly) distortion as well.
                    Message 9 of 13 , Jan 4, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Serge Maandag-3 wrote:
                      >
                      >> Wouldn't I then want to
                      >> proceed by designating lots of subsegments along the line that I
                      >> eventually
                      >> want rendered straight?
                      >
                      > No, The three coefficients a, b and that the panotools optimizer uses can
                      > only
                      > correct barrel and pincushion distortion. The two line segments are enough
                      > info for
                      > the optimizer to do that. Subsegments would only be useful to fix a wobbly
                      > line. But
                      > that wouldn't be possible anyway with only a,b and c.
                      >
                      > The less segments you define, the less confusing it is to the optimizer.
                      > If I have
                      > to correct a barrel shaped box, I define a line (consisting of 2 line
                      > segments) on
                      > each side of the box.
                      >

                      Sorry, this is wrong. The use of three coefficients (a, b and c) was
                      especially necessary to allow the correction of wavy (or wobbly) distortion
                      as well. Wavy distortion is a mixture of barrel and pincushion distortion in
                      different distances to the image center. For details see
                      http://wiki.panotools.org/Wavy_distortion

                      To correct for this kind of distortion you need more than two pairs of
                      control points on each line and you need lines in different distances from
                      the center. The optimizer will not be confused at all, since there isn't a
                      possibility of false local minima.

                      best regards


                      -----
                      Erik Krause
                      http://www.erik-krause.de
                      --
                      View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/RE%3A-FW%3A-calibrating-a-lens-teleconverter-combo-using--PTGui-tp14569835p14615206.html
                      Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
                    • Serge Maandag
                      ... Thanks for the update, Erik. I kind of always pictured pincushion distortion as bulgy in the middle and pointy in the corners, but it occurs to me that
                      Message 10 of 13 , Jan 4, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        > Sorry, this is wrong. The use of three coefficients (a, b and c) was
                        > especially necessary to allow the correction of wavy (or wobbly) distortion
                        > as well. Wavy distortion is a mixture of barrel and pincushion distortion in
                        > different distances to the image center. For details see
                        > http://wiki.panotools.org/Wavy_distortion

                        Thanks for the update, Erik.

                        I kind of always pictured pincushion distortion as bulgy in the middle and pointy in
                        the corners, but it occurs to me that this is in fact a combination of barrel
                        distortion and pincushion distortion. More than this can't be correct by the
                        optimizer, though.

                        Luckily pincushion distortion is more rare than barrel distorion. Especially on wide
                        angle lenses.

                        Serge.
                      • Yoram Bernet
                        Folks: I was struggling with using the straight line control points to remove barrel distortion from a single image. I posted some questions to this list and
                        Message 11 of 13 , Jan 24, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Folks:



                          I was struggling with using the straight line control points to remove
                          barrel distortion from a single image. I posted some questions to this list
                          and got lots of helpful answers. Also - Erik - thanks for updating the
                          tutorial.



                          However, i'm still not getting the results that I hoped for. I shot a close
                          up of a model using the Canon 24 mm tilt/shift lens. I used vertical shift.
                          I'm trying to correct for barrel distortion.



                          Please see the following illustration for reference
                          www.yorambernet.com/Panotools/panotools.jpg. There are three images in the
                          illustration: on the top left is my uncorrected image. On the top right is
                          the corrected image and on the bottom, a snapshot of the PTGui 'Control
                          Points' screen, showing the control points (CPs) that I used. I set CP pairs
                          on three important lines and grouped them in the CP dialog box as new lines
                          3, 4 and 5. On the top two images (corrected and uncorrected, I've inserted
                          four light blue reference lines that are perfectly straight. The lower three
                          of these correspond to the lines that I am trying to straighten and help to
                          illustrate the degree to which the straightening worked.



                          In particular - it appears that the line defined by CP pairs 0, 1 and 2 is
                          substantially improved. However, the line defined by CP pairs 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
                          and 8, while improved, is far from perfect. The barrel distortion seems to
                          be much improved near the middle of the line, but not near the ends. The
                          ends still curve significantly away from the reference line.



                          I tried optimizing for 'b' only and I tried optimizing for 'a', 'b' and 'c'.
                          I tried defining fewer CP pairs along each line and more CP pairs along each
                          line. I was unable to get results better than those illustrated in the
                          reference image. That said, I also tried optimizing for vertical shift (VS).
                          It seems to me that the first time I tried optimizing for VS as well as for
                          'b', I did get a much better result. Thinking that this might have been the
                          key, I went back and defined additional CP pairs, hoping to get perfect
                          results. I again optimized for 'b' and for 'VS'. This time I got 'too good
                          to be true' from the optimizer and the resulting image was just a black
                          canvas. I tried again and again to reproduce the promising results that I
                          thought I had obtained by optimizing for 'VS' as well as for 'b', but every
                          time, got 'too good to be true'.



                          So - here are my questions:

                          1. Am I asking for too much? Is this as good as it gets?
                          2. Is it possible to optimize for VS (without having recorded how many
                          mm of shift were actually used)? Could I in fact have got much better
                          results on one of the optimization runs when I selected 'VS' but for some
                          reason am simply unable to reproduce it?
                          3. How do I optimize for VS?
                          4. How do I get better results?



                          Many thanks for any assistance/insight!



                          BTW - on the reference image of the CP dialog box, several CPs overlap. So,
                          for example, on the right pane, CPs 0 and 1 overlap and therefore, CP 0 on
                          the right pane is not visible.



                          Yoram

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
                          Behalf Of Erik Krause
                          Sent: Friday, January 04, 2008 4:18 AM
                          To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [PanoToolsNG] FW: calibrating a lens/teleconverter combo using
                          PTGui





                          Serge Maandag-3 wrote:
                          >
                          >> Wouldn't I then want to
                          >> proceed by designating lots of subsegments along the line that I
                          >> eventually
                          >> want rendered straight?
                          >
                          > No, The three coefficients a, b and that the panotools optimizer uses can
                          > only
                          > correct barrel and pincushion distortion. The two line segments are enough
                          > info for
                          > the optimizer to do that. Subsegments would only be useful to fix a wobbly
                          > line. But
                          > that wouldn't be possible anyway with only a,b and c.
                          >
                          > The less segments you define, the less confusing it is to the optimizer.
                          > If I have
                          > to correct a barrel shaped box, I define a line (consisting of 2 line
                          > segments) on
                          > each side of the box.
                          >

                          Sorry, this is wrong. The use of three coefficients (a, b and c) was
                          especially necessary to allow the correction of wavy (or wobbly) distortion
                          as well. Wavy distortion is a mixture of barrel and pincushion distortion in
                          different distances to the image center. For details see
                          http://wiki. <http://wiki.panotools.org/Wavy_distortion>
                          panotools.org/Wavy_distortion

                          To correct for this kind of distortion you need more than two pairs of
                          control points on each line and you need lines in different distances from
                          the center. The optimizer will not be confused at all, since there isn't a
                          possibility of false local minima.

                          best regards

                          -----
                          Erik Krause
                          http://www.erik- <http://www.erik-krause.de> krause.de
                          --
                          View this message in context: http://www.nabble.
                          <http://www.nabble.com/RE%3A-FW%3A-calibrating-a-lens-teleconverter-combo-us
                          ing--PTGui-tp14569835p14615206.html>
                          com/RE%3A-FW%3A-calibrating-a-lens-teleconverter-combo-using--PTGui-tp145698
                          35p14615206.html
                          Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.





                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Erik Krause
                          ... Sorry for taking me so long. I missed your post because of the entirely new subject in an older thread... [...] ... No. ... Check vertical shift on the
                          Message 12 of 13 , Jan 27, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            On Thursday, January 24, 2008 at 17:20, Yoram Bernet wrote:

                            > However, i'm still not getting the results that I hoped for. I shot a
                            > close up of a model using the Canon 24 mm tilt/shift lens. I used
                            > vertical shift. I'm trying to correct for barrel distortion.

                            Sorry for taking me so long. I missed your post because of the
                            entirely new subject in an older thread...

                            [...]
                            > 1. Am I asking for too much? Is this as good as it gets?

                            No.

                            > 2. Is it possible to optimize for VS (without having recorded how many
                            > mm of shift were actually used)? Could I in fact have got much better
                            > results on one of the optimization runs when I selected 'VS' but for some
                            > reason am simply unable to reproduce it?

                            Check "vertical shift" on the optimizer tab page and optimize again.
                            Be prepared that your result slips out of center. Hence you might
                            need to use a larger output field of view. You can adjust this in the
                            pano editor (ctrl+e). It could well be, that the PTGui optimizer
                            won't give you good results. If this is the case, use panotools
                            optimizer.

                            Using a shift lens is a classical case of center of distortion not
                            beeing in the image center. However, panotools should handle this
                            case properly, but if you use shift and lens correction optimization
                            together, the optimizer might find a false minimum. In this case you
                            might want to tune your control points and/or use more lines.

                            Please not, that if you deselect a parameter for optimization, this
                            won't reset the value. You must set these parameter manually to zero
                            on lens settings tab.

                            best regards

                            Erik Krause
                            http://www.erik-krause.de
                          • Rick Drew
                            I received a few emails asking about my home-made camera warmer / jacket for shooting outdoors in winter. My current one was constructed from a fleece hat I
                            Message 13 of 13 , Jan 27, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I received a few emails asking about my home-made camera warmer / jacket for
                              shooting outdoors in winter. My current one was constructed from a fleece
                              hat I purchased at WalMart for $2.00. Cutting and sewing took about two
                              hours. I added photos to flickr.com - keyword rickscamerahat .



                              http://flickr.com/search/?q=rickscamerahat
                              <http://flickr.com/search/?q=rickscamerahat&w=22793959%40N06>
                              &w=22793959%40N06



                              Hope it helps.



                              Rick Drew



                              PS - I used it yesterday. In the morning the wind-chill was 3 degrees
                              Fahrenheit. One battery lasted for 911 photos!



                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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