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Re: How control points are determined in bracketed shots using PTGUI

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  • erik leeman
    Sorry, but that wouldn t help much because you d have to approach and leave the camera for every single shot. Every move you make can (and will) disturb the
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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      Sorry, but that wouldn't help much because you'd have to approach and
      leave the camera for every single shot. Every move you make can (and
      will) disturb the position of the camera under such circumstances.
      Because the combined center of gravity of the camera + panohead is
      never aligned with the vertical axis of rotation of the tripod some
      displacement will always occur when the tripod is not stable enough,
      therefore even a remotely controlled rotator might not prevent errors
      completely.

      Regards,

      erik leeman

      (www.erikleeman.com)
    • Matthew Rogers
      Hi Hans, I do realise the context or Carel s statement but I m sick of wasting my time defending comments made on forums and email lists that ultimately have
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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        Hi Hans,

        I do realise the context or Carel's statement but I'm sick of wasting
        my time defending comments made on forums and email lists that
        ultimately have nothing to do with our products. My new tactic is to
        clarify any comments when and where they're made. Hopefully I won't
        have to explain to 20 people individually that you can in-fact use a
        360precision set-up on carpet. A lot of the time people don't realise
        how highly regarded comments on lists like this are taken, whether
        they're correct or not.

        The thing is Hans, you may realise what Carel meant. Believe me
        though, there are a lot of people that will take his statement to mean
        you can't use 360Precision with a template when shooting on carpet and
        this is b.s.

        Like I said, if you guys are having problems don't blame the head or
        the carpet, blame your set-up or technique. Personally I've shot
        hundreds of locations for real estate tours with 1-2 templates and
        have not noticed any major problems. And I've shot rooms with carpet,
        tiles, floorboards, slate, glass, I've even shot in swimming pools and
        hot tubs.

        A large part of this comes down to understanding how precise you
        actually need to be when shooting.

        Matt

        On 2 Dec 2007, at 12:06, Hans Nyberg wrote:

        > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Rogers <matthew@...>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Hi Carel,
        > >
        > > I normally try and stay out of these debates but making such a broad
        > > sweeping statement about the 360Precision head is simply not
        > > acceptable.
        >
        > Matt,
        > Carel is in no way saying anything about the precision of the
        > 360precision.
        >
        > He just says that there are other factors which can very easy change
        > this precision.
        >
        > I just did a very simple test.
        > My floor is standard 22mm plates with a carpet on and I placed my
        > large heavy Manfrotto
        > tripod 058 on it.
        > I took a monopod and fastened it at a stable shelf 1,5 m from the
        > tripod and moved it
        > until it almost touched the top of the tripod vertical pole.
        >
        > The movement when walking around as you would normally do for taking
        > the panorama
        > was 1mm.
        > That means that you get different pitches on the images and using
        > template stitching will
        > give you errors.
        > And that has nothing to do with the panohead.
        >
        > You say the same yourself below so why are you complaining.
        >
        > Hans
        >
      • Erik Krause
        ... I don t see that as pessimistic as you. Although it won t help under certain circumstances, it might well help to use a self timer and walk away under
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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          On Sunday, December 02, 2007 at 12:39, erik leeman wrote:

          > Sorry, but that wouldn't help much because you'd have to approach and
          > leave the camera for every single shot.

          I don't see that as pessimistic as you. Although it won't help under
          certain circumstances, it might well help to use a self timer and
          walk away under other ones - f.e. in case of an elastic wooden floor.

          And there certainly are other possibilities, like f.e. to weigh the
          tripod down by hanging a heavy bag under it etc...

          BTW.: I (and many others too) would appreciate if you quote what you
          refer to. It makes reading of an answer much easier if the context is
          known. For details please see:
          http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

          best regards


          --
          http://www.erik-krause.de
        • Keith Martin
          ... Interesting list! My personal more extreme shooting environments so far have been the sea (meaning the shore, not the deeps), on rickety scaffolding
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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            Sometime around 2/12/07 (at 12:54 +0000) Matthew Rogers said:

            >I've shot rooms with carpet,
            >tiles, floorboards, slate, glass, I've even shot in swimming pools and
            >hot tubs.

            Interesting list!
            My personal more extreme shooting environments so far have been the
            sea (meaning the shore, not the deeps), on rickety scaffolding
            boards, deep mud, and in the middle of hard-core dance festival
            crowds. At times those last two were together. And yes, the bottom of
            my tripod legs *are* still just a bit muddy.
            I've also shot from a paraglider, but no tripod or head was involved there. ;-)

            I wonder what other extreme conditions people have been in when
            shooting panos? Probably some would put my examples to shame!

            Anyway, thanks to the head and a modicum of care, some of the pano
            shots from festivals were exceptionally successful. One was used for
            the cover of my recent CS3 Integration book.

            My Absolute head is solid.
            My tripod is also solid, although I do wish I had a lighter one.
            If the surface my tripod is on isn't solid, then I need to watch for
            this and also be ready to deal with this afterwards when stitching.
            Basic common sense.

            I try to avoid introducing instability as I walk around the tripod,
            but there are times when this can't be avoided entirely, solid
            head/tripod or not. And that's what control points in PTGui help to
            counteract.

            k
          • Sacha Griffin
            Ideally, you should NOT be trying to optimize your lens every single time you shoot. You should do your optimization one time, in an ideal environment. HDR is
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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              Ideally, you should NOT be trying to optimize your lens every single time
              you shoot.

              You should do your optimization one time, in an ideal environment. HDR is
              unnecessary for this step.

              1 set of images around with excellently placed control points, will optimize
              your lens and your template.



              Then you only need to apply this template to ANY other shooting situation if
              you're using the almighty precision head.

              You only need 3-4 cps per image set for stitching, with an already optimized
              lens. And I have always assumed.. 0 cps with the precision head.



              One should only need to attempt cp's across and hdr set with an uncalibrated
              lens, a wobbly head, handheld shots, head without accurate detents, when
              you're unsure about your template, etc.



              When looking at your ptgui project, you'll find many cps that are not
              optimized/used.

              Sacha Griffin
              Southern Digital Solutions LLC - Atlanta, Georgia
              www.southern-digital.com
              www.seeit360.net
              www.ezphotosafe.com
              404-551-4275
              404-731-7798

              I understand what you and others have said about the over and under
              exposed images not having enough control points, however shouldnt the
              first image of a bracketed set, the metered image, be able to
              generate sufficient control points?

              Would it make any difference to give the user the option to only use
              control points from the metered shot whaterv order it is in ? eg. 0,-
              ,+ or -,0,+ etc just to take the 0 and use that as a model? Then
              perhaps give the user the option to over ride the master image in
              case like you say the image is deleted.

              Thank you for your information! 3am time for bed.

              KieranMullen

              --- In PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
              "Erik Krause" <erik.krause@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > On Saturday, December 01, 2007 at 3:27, verifone411 wrote:
              >
              > > Thus only the first image should get control points generated. The
              > > images images do within the bracketed set do not need control
              points
              >
              > Because in over- and underexposed areas there are no control points
              > possible. I suspect one shoots HDR because there is a large dynamic
              > range. If one side of the first image of a bracketed set is
              > completely overexposed but the other isn't, PTGui needs to use the
              > darker images instead to generate relevant CPs. But on the darker
              one
              > the other side might be underexposed, hence the control points from
              > the first image are needed...
              >
              > You could argue that it would be sufficient to generate CPs in
              other
              > but the first image only if in the first one there weren't relevant
              > ones. But if the user decides to unlink images after that, there
              are
              > no control points in lots of images. I guess that is why Joost
              > decided to create CPs for all of them, even if they are linked...
              >
              > > from example 0 & 7 (why cant we start at 1?)
              >
              > For historical reasons: C programmers always start counting with 0.
              > ;-)
              >
              > Best regards
              > --
              > http://www.erik- <http://www.erik-krause.de> krause.de
              >





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Carel
              ... Hi Matt, I made a simple observation that one should not try to figure out what is going on with mis-aligned control points by doing a test on a carpet.
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                Matthew Rogers-2 wrote:
                >
                > Hi Carel,
                >
                > I normally try and stay out of these debates but making such a broad
                > sweeping statement about the 360Precision head is simply not
                > acceptable. One thing I've learnt whilst dealing with thousands of
                > photographers over the past 3-4 years is experience means nothing.
                > Just because someone has been involved in panoramic photography since
                > it's inception doesn't mean they actually know what they're talking
                > about. In-fact it quite often means there so stuck in their ways that
                > they're not willing to accept change.
                >

                Hi Matt,

                I made a simple observation that one should not try to figure out what is
                going on with mis-aligned control points by doing a test on a carpet. You
                can use the universe's best pano head and it will still not make a
                difference as the errors caused by movement of the carpet & floor will be
                much bigger. It is not that hard to shoot a pano in such circumstances, but
                any reasonably decent panohead will do. I have had many situations where I
                wished I had a 360Precision, but a carpeted floor would not have been one of
                those. The reason that I have not bought a 360Precision yet is that I use
                two cameras and 3 lenses and often decide on the spot which one I will use.
                It is not that I am stuck in my ways, as you opine, it's that I so often use
                different setups, while the 360Precision only allows one.

                Carel Struycken

                --
                View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-control-points-are-determined-in-bracketed-shots-using-PTGUI-tf4926132.html#a14119009
                Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
              • 360 Precision
                Hi Carel, Your email proves my point. We launched our fully adjustable precision head over 12 months ago, so why not buy one of those ? I just don t know why
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                  Hi Carel,

                  Your email proves my point. We launched our fully adjustable
                  precision head over 12 months ago, so why not buy one of those ? I
                  just don't know why you have so much trouble shooting panos on
                  carpet ? I can understand shooting on 10mm pile carpet but we ain't
                  living in the 70s.

                  Matt


                  > Hi Matt,
                  >
                  > I made a simple observation that one should not try to figure out
                  > what is
                  > going on with mis-aligned control points by doing a test on a
                  > carpet. You
                  > can use the universe's best pano head and it will still not make a
                  > difference as the errors caused by movement of the carpet & floor
                  > will be
                  > much bigger. It is not that hard to shoot a pano in such
                  > circumstances, but
                  > any reasonably decent panohead will do. I have had many situations
                  > where I
                  > wished I had a 360Precision, but a carpeted floor would not have
                  > been one of
                  > those. The reason that I have not bought a 360Precision yet is that
                  > I use
                  > two cameras and 3 lenses and often decide on the spot which one I
                  > will use.
                  > It is not that I am stuck in my ways, as you opine, it's that I so
                  > often use
                  > different setups, while the 360Precision only allows one.
                  >
                  > Carel Struycken
                • Carel
                  ... Matt, Why do you keep mis-interpreting what I say? I have no trouble shooting panos on a carpet. I regularly shoot from a 6m hand held pole that sways in
                  Message 8 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                    Matthew Rogers-2 wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Carel,
                    >
                    > Your email proves my point. We launched our fully adjustable
                    > precision head over 12 months ago, so why not buy one of those ? I
                    > just don't know why you have so much trouble shooting panos on
                    > carpet ? I can understand shooting on 10mm pile carpet but we ain't
                    > living in the 70s.
                    >
                    > Matt
                    >
                    >

                    Matt,

                    Why do you keep mis-interpreting what I say? I have no trouble shooting
                    panos on a carpet. I regularly shoot from a 6m hand held pole that sways in
                    the wind (another scenario where a 360Precision would not be of much use).
                    There are situations where I wish for a template-able panohead like the
                    360Precision, but nowhere on your website have I found information that the
                    Precision Adjuste is template-able.

                    Carel

                    --
                    View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-control-points-are-determined-in-bracketed-shots-using-PTGUI-tf4933166.html#a14120732
                    Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
                  • Keith Martin
                    Prickles all round, eh? Personally, I find Carel s various posts to be very interesting (the Mt. Wilson Observatory object movie was wonderful!), and I find
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                      Prickles all 'round, eh?

                      Personally, I find Carel's various posts to be very interesting (the
                      Mt. Wilson Observatory object movie was wonderful!), and I find
                      Matt's products to be superb. And you both give great advice. For me,
                      the disagreements and the rest aren't important. I just put it down
                      to the kind of free-thinking individualist that gets into panorama
                      creation... :-)

                      Carel, I'm about to test an Adjuste, as soon as I finish marking some
                      MA dissertations. I haven't tried it yet, but I have examined it
                      carefully. Yes, it should be every bit as template-able as the
                      Absolute. You'd just need to note down or mark the right positions
                      for your different combinations of camera/lens equipment.
                      Here's a pre-test assessment if you want one: It is a serious
                      investment to make, but I reckon it'd let you have your cake and eat
                      it too.

                      But don't go using it on trampolines, ok? (sorry, silly joke ;-)

                      k
                      --

                      Keith Martin
                      Author, Creative Suite 3 Integration (Focal Press)
                      Senior Lecturer in Publishing, LCC (University of the Arts, London)
                      Technical Editor, MacUser magazine
                      design, programming, VR photography, consultancy

                      http://www.thesmallest.com
                      iChat/AIM & Skype ThatKeith
                    • verifone411
                      For those having issues with panos on carpet and flexing wooden floors.. Is it a matter of not finding any auto stich points? Are you use ing PTGUi? if so does
                      Message 10 of 26 , Dec 4, 2007
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                        For those having issues with panos on carpet and flexing wooden floors..

                        Is it a matter of not finding any auto stich points?

                        Are you use ing PTGUi? if so does it rate it ias very good, good, bad
                        very bad etc...

                        Thank you

                        Kieran
                      • Erik Krause
                        ... Yes, of course. That are those between images inside a linked set - as long as this set stays linked. They get used as soon as you unlink the images and
                        Message 11 of 26 , Dec 4, 2007
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                          On Sunday, December 02, 2007 at 12:47, Sacha Griffin wrote:

                          > When looking at your ptgui project, you'll find many cps that are not
                          > optimized/used.

                          Yes, of course. That are those between images inside a linked set -
                          as long as this set stays linked. They get used as soon as you unlink
                          the images and optimize again. This might be necessary sometimes if
                          you discover that there are HDR merging errors between those
                          images...

                          best regards
                          --
                          http://www.erik-krause.de
                        • PanoToolsNG.10.m8@spamgourmet.com
                          I think the reference to carpets and flexing wooden floors, is regarding using a fixed PTGui template and pin registered panohead giving the (possible) ability
                          Message 12 of 26 , Dec 4, 2007
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                            I think the reference to carpets and flexing wooden floors, is regarding
                            using a fixed PTGui template and pin registered panohead giving the
                            (possible) ability to not need optimising.
                            ie. Load images into a pre-prepared ptgui template and just stitch. So, no
                            cp's and no optimising.
                            (you 'do' have to follow a fairly rigourous set of repeatable rules for this
                            to work well)

                            In general carpet and wooden floors etc. are not a problem when you are
                            going to insert cp's and optimise.
                            (unless there is something 'very' close to the camera :-)

                            Cheers,
                            Darren.

                            )-----Original Message-----
                            )From: verifone411
                            )
                            )For those having issues with panos on carpet and flexing
                            )wooden floors..
                            )
                            )Is it a matter of not finding any auto stich points?
                            )
                            )Are you use ing PTGUi? if so does it rate it ias very good,
                            )good, bad very bad etc...
                            )
                            )Thank you
                            )
                            )Kieran
                            )
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