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Re: How control points are determined in bracketed shots using PTGUI

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  • verifone411
    Well ow we are going to the question of why I did what I did, rather than why does it do what it does... I am just trying to figure out why it does what it
    Message 1 of 26 , Dec 1, 2007
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      Well ow we are going to the question of why I did what I did, rather
      than why does it do what it does... I am just trying to figure out
      why it does what it does. I doubt I will take 9 HDR image shots too
      often anyway.

      I would also seem to think that if one could pre align the pictures
      in the program via low res preview that woudl save computing time as
      well.

      Or does it do it already based on the order of which they are loaded?

      Thank you

      KieranMullen

      --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Sacha Griffin"
      <sachagriffin@...> wrote:
      >
      > OK sure, but you don't need to start using hdr, to create a
      template since,
      > as you said they are linked.
      >
      > You can apply on cp template from an ldr to an hdr project, and
      then link
      > and save, and it should work fine.
      >
      > And yes, the cp generator wastes time computing CP on images it
      will never
      > use.
      >
      >
      >
      > Sacha Griffin
      > Southern Digital Solutions LLC - Atlanta, Georgia
      > www.southern-digital.com
      > www.seeit360.net
      > www.ezphotosafe.com
      > 404-551-4275
      > 404-731-7798
      >
    • lovefilm
      I don t fully understand the work flow for bracketed shots in PTgui. I too have problems If I bring all my bracket shots in at once and try to generate control
      Message 2 of 26 , Dec 1, 2007
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        I don't fully understand the work flow for bracketed shots in PTgui.
        I too have problems If I bring all my bracket shots in at once and
        try to generate control points. It seems that PTgui should only
        generate points for one bracketed series rather than all of them. If
        you have a lot of images, it can get kind of confusing sorting through
        all those points.

        So here is what I have been doing, with good results:

        I bring in my main bracketed series (usually the medium bracket). I
        stitch that as normal in PTGui. When satisfied, I then bring in the
        other bracketed shots using the Source Images tab and position the
        images accordingly using the Up and Down arrows.

        After bring in the other bracketed series of shots, click on the HDR
        tab & enable HDR stitching. PTGui recognizes the brackets as an HDR
        sequence. From there you can either link the images so that the other
        brackets stitch exactly the same as your main bracket, or you can
        keep the images unlinked, at which point PTGu is supposed to align
        them as best as possible.

        At this point, however, I have my own question:

        When rendering a HDR sequence with unlinked images - do the other
        bracketed sequences need their own control points? Or will the
        unlinked images with no control points be generated as if they were
        linked, and PTGui will then attempt to align those as best as possible?

        I did a test on a HDR pano that had control points associated with
        only one bracket. I did two renderings, one as linked and one
        unlinked. There was no difference I could see in the final output.

        Can anyone offer more work flow tips on using unlinked images in PTgui?




        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "verifone411" <kieranmullen@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > Well ow we are going to the question of why I did what I did, rather
        > than why does it do what it does... I am just trying to figure out
        > why it does what it does. I doubt I will take 9 HDR image shots too
        > often anyway.
        >
        > I would also seem to think that if one could pre align the pictures
        > in the program via low res preview that woudl save computing time as
        > well.
        >
        > Or does it do it already based on the order of which they are loaded?
        >
        > Thank you
        >
        > KieranMullen
        >
      • Erik Krause
        ... Because in over- and underexposed areas there are no control points possible. I suspect one shoots HDR because there is a large dynamic range. If one side
        Message 3 of 26 , Dec 1, 2007
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          On Saturday, December 01, 2007 at 3:27, verifone411 wrote:

          > Thus only the first image should get control points generated. The
          > images images do within the bracketed set do not need control points

          Because in over- and underexposed areas there are no control points
          possible. I suspect one shoots HDR because there is a large dynamic
          range. If one side of the first image of a bracketed set is
          completely overexposed but the other isn't, PTGui needs to use the
          darker images instead to generate relevant CPs. But on the darker one
          the other side might be underexposed, hence the control points from
          the first image are needed...

          You could argue that it would be sufficient to generate CPs in other
          but the first image only if in the first one there weren't relevant
          ones. But if the user decides to unlink images after that, there are
          no control points in lots of images. I guess that is why Joost
          decided to create CPs for all of them, even if they are linked...

          > from example 0 & 7 (why cant we start at 1?)

          For historical reasons: C programmers always start counting with 0.
          ;-)

          Best regards
          --
          http://www.erik-krause.de
        • Matthew Rogers
          Hi Carel, I normally try and stay out of these debates but making such a broad sweeping statement about the 360Precision head is simply not acceptable. One
          Message 4 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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            Hi Carel,

            I normally try and stay out of these debates but making such a broad
            sweeping statement about the 360Precision head is simply not
            acceptable. One thing I've learnt whilst dealing with thousands of
            photographers over the past 3-4 years is experience means nothing.
            Just because someone has been involved in panoramic photography since
            it's inception doesn't mean they actually know what they're talking
            about. In-fact it quite often means there so stuck in their ways that
            they're not willing to accept change.

            I've seen complete beginners create technically perfect panoramas
            after a weekend of training yet others take years. Shooting on carpet
            if you have a properly set-up tripod and head shouldn't pose any real
            problems.

            The twin bearing set-up in the 360Precision Absolute and Adjuste base
            is designed specifically to isolate as much head vibration and
            movement from effecting or moving the tripod. It's this very reason
            that no other head whether the manufacturer calls it a precision or
            not, will never work as well. One sealed bearing or plastic bush will
            never work as well, we know, we tried the same designs.

            If your tripod or set-up is moving on carpet and hard-floors then I
            suggest it's time to upgrade your equipment because this shouldn't
            happen. Another cause is standing directly next to the tripod leg when
            shooting. Try to stand as far away from the tripod as possible and
            always use mirror lock-up and a remote release if possible.

            A better test is to shoot 3-4 panoramas in succession and overlay the
            individual images in Photoshop. Switch the blend mode of the top image
            to difference, the results should be as close to a black image as
            possible. The blend image will never be completely black as two images
            will never be 100% identical.

            Matt
            360Precision Ltd
            http://www.360precision.com

            On 1 Dec 2007, at 05:02, Carel wrote:

            >
            > Kiran,
            >
            > I have read the other answers but just want to address one issue:
            > You say "
            > heavy manfrotto tripod CON CARPET" Carpets are the worst and your
            > 360precision will be useless on a carpet. I once attached a laser to
            > the
            > camera, pointing it upward to the ceiling. When the tripod is on a
            > carpet
            > you can see the laser move up to 1 inch on the ceiling. Even on a
            > wooden
            > floor without carpet there is still a lot of movement while you turn
            > with
            > the camera to stay out of the shot.
            >
            > Carel Struycken
            > --
            > View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-control-points-are-determined-in-bracketed-shots-using-PTGUI-tf4926132.html#a14102301
            > Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
            >
            >
            >
          • verifone411
            I understand what you and others have said about the over and under exposed images not having enough control points, however shouldnt the first image of a
            Message 5 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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              I understand what you and others have said about the over and under
              exposed images not having enough control points, however shouldnt the
              first image of a bracketed set, the metered image, be able to
              generate sufficient control points?

              Would it make any difference to give the user the option to only use
              control points from the metered shot whaterv order it is in ? eg. 0,-
              ,+ or -,0,+ etc just to take the 0 and use that as a model? Then
              perhaps give the user the option to over ride the master image in
              case like you say the image is deleted.

              Thank you for your information! 3am time for bed.

              KieranMullen


              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Erik Krause" <erik.krause@...>
              wrote:
              >
              > On Saturday, December 01, 2007 at 3:27, verifone411 wrote:
              >
              > > Thus only the first image should get control points generated. The
              > > images images do within the bracketed set do not need control
              points
              >
              > Because in over- and underexposed areas there are no control points
              > possible. I suspect one shoots HDR because there is a large dynamic
              > range. If one side of the first image of a bracketed set is
              > completely overexposed but the other isn't, PTGui needs to use the
              > darker images instead to generate relevant CPs. But on the darker
              one
              > the other side might be underexposed, hence the control points from
              > the first image are needed...
              >
              > You could argue that it would be sufficient to generate CPs in
              other
              > but the first image only if in the first one there weren't relevant
              > ones. But if the user decides to unlink images after that, there
              are
              > no control points in lots of images. I guess that is why Joost
              > decided to create CPs for all of them, even if they are linked...
              >
              > > from example 0 & 7 (why cant we start at 1?)
              >
              > For historical reasons: C programmers always start counting with 0.
              > ;-)
              >
              > Best regards
              > --
              > http://www.erik-krause.de
              >
            • Erik Krause
              ... If you shoot f.e. EV 0, -2, 2 this should be the case, but what if you shoot -2, 0, 2 as some cameras do? Or even more brackets? For a standard room with a
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                On Sunday, December 02, 2007 at 11:24, verifone411 wrote:

                > I understand what you and others have said about the over and under
                > exposed images not having enough control points, however shouldnt the
                > first image of a bracketed set, the metered image, be able to
                > generate sufficient control points?

                If you shoot f.e. EV 0, -2, 2 this should be the case, but what if
                you shoot -2, 0, 2 as some cameras do? Or even more brackets? For a
                standard room with a view you most often need 5 brackets (at 2 EV
                steps).

                There is absolutely no guarantee which image is the "correct"
                exposure, since shooting a more than 3 brackets HDR will involve to
                meter the darkest spot that still needs texture, meter the lightest
                spot and choose the amount of brackets. It could well be that in such
                a panorama most of the images in the first two brackets are almost
                completely black, since you need the short exposure times only for
                the windows and eventually lamps... In any case it is a good strategy
                to get CPs from as many images as possible.

                best regards
                --
                http://www.erik-krause.de
              • erik leeman
                I don t think Carel intended to say anything negative about the 360Precision at all Matt, the way I read it is more like even a panohead as good as the
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                  I don't think Carel intended to say anything negative about the
                  360Precision at all Matt, the way I read it is more like "even a
                  panohead as good as the 360Precision cannot do its job properly on a
                  carpet", and I think he is perfectly right about that.
                  You need to use spiked tripod legs on surfaces like thick carpets or
                  soft soil and push them down really hard. When you can't do that
                  because of possible damage to the carpet you should at least make your
                  tripod as heavy as possible. Flexing wooden floors have been a serious
                  problem for me as well, standing as far away from the tripod legs as
                  possible helps, a motorized panohead rotator and/or a wireless remote
                  shutter release would be ideal for this.

                  Regards,

                  erik leeman

                  (www.erikleeman.com)
                • Hans Nyberg
                  ... Matt, Carel is in no way saying anything about the precision of the 360precision. He just says that there are other factors which can very easy change this
                  Message 8 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                    --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Rogers <matthew@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Hi Carel,
                    >
                    > I normally try and stay out of these debates but making such a broad
                    > sweeping statement about the 360Precision head is simply not
                    > acceptable.

                    Matt,
                    Carel is in no way saying anything about the precision of the 360precision.

                    He just says that there are other factors which can very easy change this precision.

                    I just did a very simple test.
                    My floor is standard 22mm plates with a carpet on and I placed my large heavy Manfrotto
                    tripod 058 on it.
                    I took a monopod and fastened it at a stable shelf 1,5 m from the tripod and moved it
                    until it almost touched the top of the tripod vertical pole.

                    The movement when walking around as you would normally do for taking the panorama
                    was 1mm.
                    That means that you get different pitches on the images and using template stitching will
                    give you errors.
                    And that has nothing to do with the panohead.

                    You say the same yourself below so why are you complaining.

                    Hans

                    One thing I've learnt whilst dealing with thousands of
                    > photographers over the past 3-4 years is experience means nothing.
                    > Just because someone has been involved in panoramic photography since
                    > it's inception doesn't mean they actually know what they're talking
                    > about. In-fact it quite often means there so stuck in their ways that
                    > they're not willing to accept change.
                    >
                    > I've seen complete beginners create technically perfect panoramas
                    > after a weekend of training yet others take years. Shooting on carpet
                    > if you have a properly set-up tripod and head shouldn't pose any real
                    > problems.
                    >
                    > The twin bearing set-up in the 360Precision Absolute and Adjuste base
                    > is designed specifically to isolate as much head vibration and
                    > movement from effecting or moving the tripod. It's this very reason
                    > that no other head whether the manufacturer calls it a precision or
                    > not, will never work as well. One sealed bearing or plastic bush will
                    > never work as well, we know, we tried the same designs.
                    >
                    > If your tripod or set-up is moving on carpet and hard-floors then I
                    > suggest it's time to upgrade your equipment because this shouldn't
                    > happen. Another cause is standing directly next to the tripod leg when
                    > shooting. Try to stand as far away from the tripod as possible and
                    > always use mirror lock-up and a remote release if possible.
                    >
                    > A better test is to shoot 3-4 panoramas in succession and overlay the
                    > individual images in Photoshop. Switch the blend mode of the top image
                    > to difference, the results should be as close to a black image as
                    > possible. The blend image will never be completely black as two images
                    > will never be 100% identical.
                    >
                    > Matt
                    > 360Precision Ltd
                    > http://www.360precision.com
                    >
                    > On 1 Dec 2007, at 05:02, Carel wrote:
                    >
                    > >
                    > > Kiran,
                    > >
                    > > I have read the other answers but just want to address one issue:
                    > > You say "
                    > > heavy manfrotto tripod CON CARPET" Carpets are the worst and your
                    > > 360precision will be useless on a carpet. I once attached a laser to
                    > > the
                    > > camera, pointing it upward to the ceiling. When the tripod is on a
                    > > carpet
                    > > you can see the laser move up to 1 inch on the ceiling. Even on a
                    > > wooden
                    > > floor without carpet there is still a lot of movement while you turn
                    > > with
                    > > the camera to stay out of the shot.
                    > >
                    > > Carel Struycken
                  • Erik Krause
                    ... ...or simply the self timer of the camera. 10 seconds should be enough to walk away from the tripod and eventually even close the door behind you... best
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                      On Sunday, December 02, 2007 at 11:44, erik leeman wrote:

                      > Flexing wooden floors have been a serious
                      > problem for me as well, standing as far away from the tripod legs as
                      > possible helps, a motorized panohead rotator and/or a wireless remote
                      > shutter release would be ideal for this.

                      ...or simply the self timer of the camera. 10 seconds should be
                      enough to walk away from the tripod and eventually even close the
                      door behind you...

                      best regards
                      --
                      http://www.erik-krause.de
                    • erik leeman
                      Sorry, but that wouldn t help much because you d have to approach and leave the camera for every single shot. Every move you make can (and will) disturb the
                      Message 10 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                        Sorry, but that wouldn't help much because you'd have to approach and
                        leave the camera for every single shot. Every move you make can (and
                        will) disturb the position of the camera under such circumstances.
                        Because the combined center of gravity of the camera + panohead is
                        never aligned with the vertical axis of rotation of the tripod some
                        displacement will always occur when the tripod is not stable enough,
                        therefore even a remotely controlled rotator might not prevent errors
                        completely.

                        Regards,

                        erik leeman

                        (www.erikleeman.com)
                      • Matthew Rogers
                        Hi Hans, I do realise the context or Carel s statement but I m sick of wasting my time defending comments made on forums and email lists that ultimately have
                        Message 11 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                          Hi Hans,

                          I do realise the context or Carel's statement but I'm sick of wasting
                          my time defending comments made on forums and email lists that
                          ultimately have nothing to do with our products. My new tactic is to
                          clarify any comments when and where they're made. Hopefully I won't
                          have to explain to 20 people individually that you can in-fact use a
                          360precision set-up on carpet. A lot of the time people don't realise
                          how highly regarded comments on lists like this are taken, whether
                          they're correct or not.

                          The thing is Hans, you may realise what Carel meant. Believe me
                          though, there are a lot of people that will take his statement to mean
                          you can't use 360Precision with a template when shooting on carpet and
                          this is b.s.

                          Like I said, if you guys are having problems don't blame the head or
                          the carpet, blame your set-up or technique. Personally I've shot
                          hundreds of locations for real estate tours with 1-2 templates and
                          have not noticed any major problems. And I've shot rooms with carpet,
                          tiles, floorboards, slate, glass, I've even shot in swimming pools and
                          hot tubs.

                          A large part of this comes down to understanding how precise you
                          actually need to be when shooting.

                          Matt

                          On 2 Dec 2007, at 12:06, Hans Nyberg wrote:

                          > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Rogers <matthew@...>
                          > wrote:
                          > >
                          > > Hi Carel,
                          > >
                          > > I normally try and stay out of these debates but making such a broad
                          > > sweeping statement about the 360Precision head is simply not
                          > > acceptable.
                          >
                          > Matt,
                          > Carel is in no way saying anything about the precision of the
                          > 360precision.
                          >
                          > He just says that there are other factors which can very easy change
                          > this precision.
                          >
                          > I just did a very simple test.
                          > My floor is standard 22mm plates with a carpet on and I placed my
                          > large heavy Manfrotto
                          > tripod 058 on it.
                          > I took a monopod and fastened it at a stable shelf 1,5 m from the
                          > tripod and moved it
                          > until it almost touched the top of the tripod vertical pole.
                          >
                          > The movement when walking around as you would normally do for taking
                          > the panorama
                          > was 1mm.
                          > That means that you get different pitches on the images and using
                          > template stitching will
                          > give you errors.
                          > And that has nothing to do with the panohead.
                          >
                          > You say the same yourself below so why are you complaining.
                          >
                          > Hans
                          >
                        • Erik Krause
                          ... I don t see that as pessimistic as you. Although it won t help under certain circumstances, it might well help to use a self timer and walk away under
                          Message 12 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                            On Sunday, December 02, 2007 at 12:39, erik leeman wrote:

                            > Sorry, but that wouldn't help much because you'd have to approach and
                            > leave the camera for every single shot.

                            I don't see that as pessimistic as you. Although it won't help under
                            certain circumstances, it might well help to use a self timer and
                            walk away under other ones - f.e. in case of an elastic wooden floor.

                            And there certainly are other possibilities, like f.e. to weigh the
                            tripod down by hanging a heavy bag under it etc...

                            BTW.: I (and many others too) would appreciate if you quote what you
                            refer to. It makes reading of an answer much easier if the context is
                            known. For details please see:
                            http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

                            best regards


                            --
                            http://www.erik-krause.de
                          • Keith Martin
                            ... Interesting list! My personal more extreme shooting environments so far have been the sea (meaning the shore, not the deeps), on rickety scaffolding
                            Message 13 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                              Sometime around 2/12/07 (at 12:54 +0000) Matthew Rogers said:

                              >I've shot rooms with carpet,
                              >tiles, floorboards, slate, glass, I've even shot in swimming pools and
                              >hot tubs.

                              Interesting list!
                              My personal more extreme shooting environments so far have been the
                              sea (meaning the shore, not the deeps), on rickety scaffolding
                              boards, deep mud, and in the middle of hard-core dance festival
                              crowds. At times those last two were together. And yes, the bottom of
                              my tripod legs *are* still just a bit muddy.
                              I've also shot from a paraglider, but no tripod or head was involved there. ;-)

                              I wonder what other extreme conditions people have been in when
                              shooting panos? Probably some would put my examples to shame!

                              Anyway, thanks to the head and a modicum of care, some of the pano
                              shots from festivals were exceptionally successful. One was used for
                              the cover of my recent CS3 Integration book.

                              My Absolute head is solid.
                              My tripod is also solid, although I do wish I had a lighter one.
                              If the surface my tripod is on isn't solid, then I need to watch for
                              this and also be ready to deal with this afterwards when stitching.
                              Basic common sense.

                              I try to avoid introducing instability as I walk around the tripod,
                              but there are times when this can't be avoided entirely, solid
                              head/tripod or not. And that's what control points in PTGui help to
                              counteract.

                              k
                            • Sacha Griffin
                              Ideally, you should NOT be trying to optimize your lens every single time you shoot. You should do your optimization one time, in an ideal environment. HDR is
                              Message 14 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                Ideally, you should NOT be trying to optimize your lens every single time
                                you shoot.

                                You should do your optimization one time, in an ideal environment. HDR is
                                unnecessary for this step.

                                1 set of images around with excellently placed control points, will optimize
                                your lens and your template.



                                Then you only need to apply this template to ANY other shooting situation if
                                you're using the almighty precision head.

                                You only need 3-4 cps per image set for stitching, with an already optimized
                                lens. And I have always assumed.. 0 cps with the precision head.



                                One should only need to attempt cp's across and hdr set with an uncalibrated
                                lens, a wobbly head, handheld shots, head without accurate detents, when
                                you're unsure about your template, etc.



                                When looking at your ptgui project, you'll find many cps that are not
                                optimized/used.

                                Sacha Griffin
                                Southern Digital Solutions LLC - Atlanta, Georgia
                                www.southern-digital.com
                                www.seeit360.net
                                www.ezphotosafe.com
                                404-551-4275
                                404-731-7798

                                I understand what you and others have said about the over and under
                                exposed images not having enough control points, however shouldnt the
                                first image of a bracketed set, the metered image, be able to
                                generate sufficient control points?

                                Would it make any difference to give the user the option to only use
                                control points from the metered shot whaterv order it is in ? eg. 0,-
                                ,+ or -,0,+ etc just to take the 0 and use that as a model? Then
                                perhaps give the user the option to over ride the master image in
                                case like you say the image is deleted.

                                Thank you for your information! 3am time for bed.

                                KieranMullen

                                --- In PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
                                "Erik Krause" <erik.krause@...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > On Saturday, December 01, 2007 at 3:27, verifone411 wrote:
                                >
                                > > Thus only the first image should get control points generated. The
                                > > images images do within the bracketed set do not need control
                                points
                                >
                                > Because in over- and underexposed areas there are no control points
                                > possible. I suspect one shoots HDR because there is a large dynamic
                                > range. If one side of the first image of a bracketed set is
                                > completely overexposed but the other isn't, PTGui needs to use the
                                > darker images instead to generate relevant CPs. But on the darker
                                one
                                > the other side might be underexposed, hence the control points from
                                > the first image are needed...
                                >
                                > You could argue that it would be sufficient to generate CPs in
                                other
                                > but the first image only if in the first one there weren't relevant
                                > ones. But if the user decides to unlink images after that, there
                                are
                                > no control points in lots of images. I guess that is why Joost
                                > decided to create CPs for all of them, even if they are linked...
                                >
                                > > from example 0 & 7 (why cant we start at 1?)
                                >
                                > For historical reasons: C programmers always start counting with 0.
                                > ;-)
                                >
                                > Best regards
                                > --
                                > http://www.erik- <http://www.erik-krause.de> krause.de
                                >





                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Carel
                                ... Hi Matt, I made a simple observation that one should not try to figure out what is going on with mis-aligned control points by doing a test on a carpet.
                                Message 15 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                  Matthew Rogers-2 wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Hi Carel,
                                  >
                                  > I normally try and stay out of these debates but making such a broad
                                  > sweeping statement about the 360Precision head is simply not
                                  > acceptable. One thing I've learnt whilst dealing with thousands of
                                  > photographers over the past 3-4 years is experience means nothing.
                                  > Just because someone has been involved in panoramic photography since
                                  > it's inception doesn't mean they actually know what they're talking
                                  > about. In-fact it quite often means there so stuck in their ways that
                                  > they're not willing to accept change.
                                  >

                                  Hi Matt,

                                  I made a simple observation that one should not try to figure out what is
                                  going on with mis-aligned control points by doing a test on a carpet. You
                                  can use the universe's best pano head and it will still not make a
                                  difference as the errors caused by movement of the carpet & floor will be
                                  much bigger. It is not that hard to shoot a pano in such circumstances, but
                                  any reasonably decent panohead will do. I have had many situations where I
                                  wished I had a 360Precision, but a carpeted floor would not have been one of
                                  those. The reason that I have not bought a 360Precision yet is that I use
                                  two cameras and 3 lenses and often decide on the spot which one I will use.
                                  It is not that I am stuck in my ways, as you opine, it's that I so often use
                                  different setups, while the 360Precision only allows one.

                                  Carel Struycken

                                  --
                                  View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-control-points-are-determined-in-bracketed-shots-using-PTGUI-tf4926132.html#a14119009
                                  Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
                                • 360 Precision
                                  Hi Carel, Your email proves my point. We launched our fully adjustable precision head over 12 months ago, so why not buy one of those ? I just don t know why
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                    Hi Carel,

                                    Your email proves my point. We launched our fully adjustable
                                    precision head over 12 months ago, so why not buy one of those ? I
                                    just don't know why you have so much trouble shooting panos on
                                    carpet ? I can understand shooting on 10mm pile carpet but we ain't
                                    living in the 70s.

                                    Matt


                                    > Hi Matt,
                                    >
                                    > I made a simple observation that one should not try to figure out
                                    > what is
                                    > going on with mis-aligned control points by doing a test on a
                                    > carpet. You
                                    > can use the universe's best pano head and it will still not make a
                                    > difference as the errors caused by movement of the carpet & floor
                                    > will be
                                    > much bigger. It is not that hard to shoot a pano in such
                                    > circumstances, but
                                    > any reasonably decent panohead will do. I have had many situations
                                    > where I
                                    > wished I had a 360Precision, but a carpeted floor would not have
                                    > been one of
                                    > those. The reason that I have not bought a 360Precision yet is that
                                    > I use
                                    > two cameras and 3 lenses and often decide on the spot which one I
                                    > will use.
                                    > It is not that I am stuck in my ways, as you opine, it's that I so
                                    > often use
                                    > different setups, while the 360Precision only allows one.
                                    >
                                    > Carel Struycken
                                  • Carel
                                    ... Matt, Why do you keep mis-interpreting what I say? I have no trouble shooting panos on a carpet. I regularly shoot from a 6m hand held pole that sways in
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                      Matthew Rogers-2 wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi Carel,
                                      >
                                      > Your email proves my point. We launched our fully adjustable
                                      > precision head over 12 months ago, so why not buy one of those ? I
                                      > just don't know why you have so much trouble shooting panos on
                                      > carpet ? I can understand shooting on 10mm pile carpet but we ain't
                                      > living in the 70s.
                                      >
                                      > Matt
                                      >
                                      >

                                      Matt,

                                      Why do you keep mis-interpreting what I say? I have no trouble shooting
                                      panos on a carpet. I regularly shoot from a 6m hand held pole that sways in
                                      the wind (another scenario where a 360Precision would not be of much use).
                                      There are situations where I wish for a template-able panohead like the
                                      360Precision, but nowhere on your website have I found information that the
                                      Precision Adjuste is template-able.

                                      Carel

                                      --
                                      View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-control-points-are-determined-in-bracketed-shots-using-PTGUI-tf4933166.html#a14120732
                                      Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
                                    • Keith Martin
                                      Prickles all round, eh? Personally, I find Carel s various posts to be very interesting (the Mt. Wilson Observatory object movie was wonderful!), and I find
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                        Prickles all 'round, eh?

                                        Personally, I find Carel's various posts to be very interesting (the
                                        Mt. Wilson Observatory object movie was wonderful!), and I find
                                        Matt's products to be superb. And you both give great advice. For me,
                                        the disagreements and the rest aren't important. I just put it down
                                        to the kind of free-thinking individualist that gets into panorama
                                        creation... :-)

                                        Carel, I'm about to test an Adjuste, as soon as I finish marking some
                                        MA dissertations. I haven't tried it yet, but I have examined it
                                        carefully. Yes, it should be every bit as template-able as the
                                        Absolute. You'd just need to note down or mark the right positions
                                        for your different combinations of camera/lens equipment.
                                        Here's a pre-test assessment if you want one: It is a serious
                                        investment to make, but I reckon it'd let you have your cake and eat
                                        it too.

                                        But don't go using it on trampolines, ok? (sorry, silly joke ;-)

                                        k
                                        --

                                        Keith Martin
                                        Author, Creative Suite 3 Integration (Focal Press)
                                        Senior Lecturer in Publishing, LCC (University of the Arts, London)
                                        Technical Editor, MacUser magazine
                                        design, programming, VR photography, consultancy

                                        http://www.thesmallest.com
                                        iChat/AIM & Skype ThatKeith
                                      • verifone411
                                        For those having issues with panos on carpet and flexing wooden floors.. Is it a matter of not finding any auto stich points? Are you use ing PTGUi? if so does
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Dec 4, 2007
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                                          For those having issues with panos on carpet and flexing wooden floors..

                                          Is it a matter of not finding any auto stich points?

                                          Are you use ing PTGUi? if so does it rate it ias very good, good, bad
                                          very bad etc...

                                          Thank you

                                          Kieran
                                        • Erik Krause
                                          ... Yes, of course. That are those between images inside a linked set - as long as this set stays linked. They get used as soon as you unlink the images and
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Dec 4, 2007
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                                            On Sunday, December 02, 2007 at 12:47, Sacha Griffin wrote:

                                            > When looking at your ptgui project, you'll find many cps that are not
                                            > optimized/used.

                                            Yes, of course. That are those between images inside a linked set -
                                            as long as this set stays linked. They get used as soon as you unlink
                                            the images and optimize again. This might be necessary sometimes if
                                            you discover that there are HDR merging errors between those
                                            images...

                                            best regards
                                            --
                                            http://www.erik-krause.de
                                          • PanoToolsNG.10.m8@spamgourmet.com
                                            I think the reference to carpets and flexing wooden floors, is regarding using a fixed PTGui template and pin registered panohead giving the (possible) ability
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Dec 4, 2007
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                                              I think the reference to carpets and flexing wooden floors, is regarding
                                              using a fixed PTGui template and pin registered panohead giving the
                                              (possible) ability to not need optimising.
                                              ie. Load images into a pre-prepared ptgui template and just stitch. So, no
                                              cp's and no optimising.
                                              (you 'do' have to follow a fairly rigourous set of repeatable rules for this
                                              to work well)

                                              In general carpet and wooden floors etc. are not a problem when you are
                                              going to insert cp's and optimise.
                                              (unless there is something 'very' close to the camera :-)

                                              Cheers,
                                              Darren.

                                              )-----Original Message-----
                                              )From: verifone411
                                              )
                                              )For those having issues with panos on carpet and flexing
                                              )wooden floors..
                                              )
                                              )Is it a matter of not finding any auto stich points?
                                              )
                                              )Are you use ing PTGUi? if so does it rate it ias very good,
                                              )good, bad very bad etc...
                                              )
                                              )Thank you
                                              )
                                              )Kieran
                                              )
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