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How control points are determined in bracketed shots using PTGUI

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  • verifone411
    From white photo are the control points linked from one bracketed shot to another? I would assume that it would be the first bracketed shot in the series? I
    Message 1 of 26 , Nov 30, 2007
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      From white photo are the control points linked from one bracketed
      shot to another? I would assume that it would be the first bracketed
      shot in the series?

      I ask this because I have taken 4 series of breacketed shots ( 3, 5,
      7, 9) on a heavy manfrotto tripod, con carpet with a precision 360
      head. I put colored pieces of paper on the wall and on the ceilings
      so that hopefully as many control points can be found very easily.
      Given the stops on the detent ring may actually be different I
      started and ended each series in the same place. Manual focus, manual
      white balance.

      All 4 series have at least 6shots -15 , 6shots +15 and 1 vertical
      shot in common that they all should be used to find control points.

      I have not been using this software very long so I am just trying to
      get an understanding why these numbers are so different if the
      program detects bracketed sets then it should only be looking for
      control points in one image in the bracket set. The image is the same
      in all series.

      Avg Min Max
      3 - 39 images =((6*3)*2)+3 2.08 0.11 32.44
      5 - 65 images =((6*5)*2)+5 1.94 0.04 37.81
      7 - 91 images =((6*7)*2)+7 2.05 0.05 79.80
      9 - 117 images=((6*9)*2)+9 1.97 0.04 98.52

      Thank you

      KieranMullen
    • Sacha Griffin
      The farther out of range from a balance exposure, to more you have clipping in shadows and highlights. It s much hard to get a control point when there is not
      Message 2 of 26 , Nov 30, 2007
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        The farther out of range from a balance exposure, to more you have clipping
        in shadows and highlights.

        It's much hard to get a control point when there is not very much detail.

        So when it does occur, it becomes more error prone.



        I'm curious however, as to why you are using control points.

        I thought that was the purpose of the precision 360 head. No need for
        control points.

        Otherwise, much cheaper heads can be used.



        Sacha Griffin
        Southern Digital Solutions LLC - Atlanta, Georgia
        www.southern-digital.com
        www.seeit360.net
        www.ezphotosafe.com
        404-551-4275
        404-731-7798

        _____

        From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
        Behalf Of verifone411
        Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 5:20 PM
        To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [PanoToolsNG] How control points are determined in bracketed shots
        using PTGUI



        From white photo are the control points linked from one bracketed
        shot to another? I would assume that it would be the first bracketed
        shot in the series?

        I ask this because I have taken 4 series of breacketed shots ( 3, 5,
        7, 9) on a heavy manfrotto tripod, con carpet with a precision 360
        head. I put colored pieces of paper on the wall and on the ceilings
        so that hopefully as many control points can be found very easily.
        Given the stops on the detent ring may actually be different I
        started and ended each series in the same place. Manual focus, manual
        white balance.

        All 4 series have at least 6shots -15 , 6shots +15 and 1 vertical
        shot in common that they all should be used to find control points.

        I have not been using this software very long so I am just trying to
        get an understanding why these numbers are so different if the
        program detects bracketed sets then it should only be looking for
        control points in one image in the bracket set. The image is the same
        in all series.

        Avg Min Max
        3 - 39 images =((6*3)*2)+3 2.08 0.11 32.44
        5 - 65 images =((6*5)*2)+5 1.94 0.04 37.81
        7 - 91 images =((6*7)*2)+7 2.05 0.05 79.80
        9 - 117 images=((6*9)*2)+9 1.97 0.04 98.52

        Thank you

        KieranMullen





        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • verifone411
        I am creating templates for myself since I do have the head so I do not need to create control points in the future. However I am trying to get them as good as
        Message 3 of 26 , Nov 30, 2007
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          I am creating templates for myself since I do have the head so I do
          not need to create control points in the future. However I am trying
          to get them as good as possible.

          I would understand your point if the points within the series were
          not linked, but they are. Thus only the first image should get
          control points generated. The images images do within the bracketed
          set do not need control points from example 0 & 7 (why cant we start
          at 1?) have good control points set so do 1 and 8 really need them?

          It is more work that doesnt need to be computed. In my humble (not
          fully educated about PTGUI) opinion.

          http://img.drlinky.com/preview/183/Untitled.jpg

          KM

          --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Sacha Griffin"
          <sachagriffin@...> wrote:
          >
          > The farther out of range from a balance exposure, to more you have
          clipping
          > in shadows and highlights.
          >
          > It's much hard to get a control point when there is not very much
          detail.
          >
          > So when it does occur, it becomes more error prone.
          >
          >
          >
          > I'm curious however, as to why you are using control points.
          >
          > I thought that was the purpose of the precision 360 head. No need
          for
          > control points.
          >
          > Otherwise, much cheaper heads can be used.
          >
          >
          >
          > Sacha Griffin
          > Southern Digital Solutions LLC - Atlanta, Georgia
          > www.southern-digital.com
          > www.seeit360.net
          > www.ezphotosafe.com
          > 404-551-4275
          > 404-731-7798
          >
          > _____
          >
          > From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
          > Behalf Of verifone411
          > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 5:20 PM
          > To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] How control points are determined in
          bracketed shots
          > using PTGUI
          >
          >
          >
          > From white photo are the control points linked from one bracketed
          > shot to another? I would assume that it would be the first
          bracketed
          > shot in the series?
          >
          > I ask this because I have taken 4 series of breacketed shots ( 3,
          5,
          > 7, 9) on a heavy manfrotto tripod, con carpet with a precision 360
          > head. I put colored pieces of paper on the wall and on the ceilings
          > so that hopefully as many control points can be found very easily.
          > Given the stops on the detent ring may actually be different I
          > started and ended each series in the same place. Manual focus,
          manual
          > white balance.
          >
          > All 4 series have at least 6shots -15 , 6shots +15 and 1 vertical
          > shot in common that they all should be used to find control points.
          >
          > I have not been using this software very long so I am just trying
          to
          > get an understanding why these numbers are so different if the
          > program detects bracketed sets then it should only be looking for
          > control points in one image in the bracket set. The image is the
          same
          > in all series.
          >
          > Avg Min Max
          > 3 - 39 images =((6*3)*2)+3 2.08 0.11 32.44
          > 5 - 65 images =((6*5)*2)+5 1.94 0.04 37.81
          > 7 - 91 images =((6*7)*2)+7 2.05 0.05 79.80
          > 9 - 117 images=((6*9)*2)+9 1.97 0.04 98.52
          >
          > Thank you
          >
          > KieranMullen
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
        • Sacha Griffin
          OK sure, but you don t need to start using hdr, to create a template since, as you said they are linked. You can apply on cp template from an ldr to an hdr
          Message 4 of 26 , Nov 30, 2007
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            OK sure, but you don't need to start using hdr, to create a template since,
            as you said they are linked.

            You can apply on cp template from an ldr to an hdr project, and then link
            and save, and it should work fine.

            And yes, the cp generator wastes time computing CP on images it will never
            use.



            Sacha Griffin
            Southern Digital Solutions LLC - Atlanta, Georgia
            www.southern-digital.com
            www.seeit360.net
            www.ezphotosafe.com
            404-551-4275
            404-731-7798

            _____

            From: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com [mailto:PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com] On
            Behalf Of verifone411
            Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 10:27 PM
            To: PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [PanoToolsNG] Re: How control points are determined in bracketed
            shots using PTGUI



            I am creating templates for myself since I do have the head so I do
            not need to create control points in the future. However I am trying
            to get them as good as possible.

            I would understand your point if the points within the series were
            not linked, but they are. Thus only the first image should get
            control points generated. The images images do within the bracketed
            set do not need control points from example 0 & 7 (why cant we start
            at 1?) have good control points set so do 1 and 8 really need them?

            It is more work that doesnt need to be computed. In my humble (not
            fully educated about PTGUI) opinion.

            http://img.drlinky <http://img.drlinky.com/preview/183/Untitled.jpg>
            com/preview/183/Untitled.jpg

            KM

            --- In PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
            "Sacha Griffin"
            <sachagriffin@...> wrote:
            >
            > The farther out of range from a balance exposure, to more you have
            clipping
            > in shadows and highlights.
            >
            > It's much hard to get a control point when there is not very much
            detail.
            >
            > So when it does occur, it becomes more error prone.
            >
            >
            >
            > I'm curious however, as to why you are using control points.
            >
            > I thought that was the purpose of the precision 360 head. No need
            for
            > control points.
            >
            > Otherwise, much cheaper heads can be used.
            >
            >
            >
            > Sacha Griffin
            > Southern Digital Solutions LLC - Atlanta, Georgia
            > www.southern-digital.com
            > www.seeit360.net
            > www.ezphotosafe.com
            > 404-551-4275
            > 404-731-7798
            >
            > _____
            >
            > From: PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com]
            On
            > Behalf Of verifone411
            > Sent: Friday, November 30, 2007 5:20 PM
            > To: PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: [PanoToolsNG] How control points are determined in
            bracketed shots
            > using PTGUI
            >
            >
            >
            > From white photo are the control points linked from one bracketed
            > shot to another? I would assume that it would be the first
            bracketed
            > shot in the series?
            >
            > I ask this because I have taken 4 series of breacketed shots ( 3,
            5,
            > 7, 9) on a heavy manfrotto tripod, con carpet with a precision 360
            > head. I put colored pieces of paper on the wall and on the ceilings
            > so that hopefully as many control points can be found very easily.
            > Given the stops on the detent ring may actually be different I
            > started and ended each series in the same place. Manual focus,
            manual
            > white balance.
            >
            > All 4 series have at least 6shots -15 , 6shots +15 and 1 vertical
            > shot in common that they all should be used to find control points.
            >
            > I have not been using this software very long so I am just trying
            to
            > get an understanding why these numbers are so different if the
            > program detects bracketed sets then it should only be looking for
            > control points in one image in the bracket set. The image is the
            same
            > in all series.
            >
            > Avg Min Max
            > 3 - 39 images =((6*3)*2)+3 2.08 0.11 32.44
            > 5 - 65 images =((6*5)*2)+5 1.94 0.04 37.81
            > 7 - 91 images =((6*7)*2)+7 2.05 0.05 79.80
            > 9 - 117 images=((6*9)*2)+9 1.97 0.04 98.52
            >
            > Thank you
            >
            > KieranMullen
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >





            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Carel
            Kiran, I have read the other answers but just want to address one issue: You say heavy manfrotto tripod CON CARPET Carpets are the worst and your
            Message 5 of 26 , Nov 30, 2007
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              Kiran,

              I have read the other answers but just want to address one issue: You say "
              heavy manfrotto tripod CON CARPET" Carpets are the worst and your
              360precision will be useless on a carpet. I once attached a laser to the
              camera, pointing it upward to the ceiling. When the tripod is on a carpet
              you can see the laser move up to 1 inch on the ceiling. Even on a wooden
              floor without carpet there is still a lot of movement while you turn with
              the camera to stay out of the shot.

              Carel Struycken
              --
              View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-control-points-are-determined-in-bracketed-shots-using-PTGUI-tf4926132.html#a14102301
              Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
            • verifone411
              Well ow we are going to the question of why I did what I did, rather than why does it do what it does... I am just trying to figure out why it does what it
              Message 6 of 26 , Dec 1, 2007
              • 0 Attachment
                Well ow we are going to the question of why I did what I did, rather
                than why does it do what it does... I am just trying to figure out
                why it does what it does. I doubt I will take 9 HDR image shots too
                often anyway.

                I would also seem to think that if one could pre align the pictures
                in the program via low res preview that woudl save computing time as
                well.

                Or does it do it already based on the order of which they are loaded?

                Thank you

                KieranMullen

                --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Sacha Griffin"
                <sachagriffin@...> wrote:
                >
                > OK sure, but you don't need to start using hdr, to create a
                template since,
                > as you said they are linked.
                >
                > You can apply on cp template from an ldr to an hdr project, and
                then link
                > and save, and it should work fine.
                >
                > And yes, the cp generator wastes time computing CP on images it
                will never
                > use.
                >
                >
                >
                > Sacha Griffin
                > Southern Digital Solutions LLC - Atlanta, Georgia
                > www.southern-digital.com
                > www.seeit360.net
                > www.ezphotosafe.com
                > 404-551-4275
                > 404-731-7798
                >
              • lovefilm
                I don t fully understand the work flow for bracketed shots in PTgui. I too have problems If I bring all my bracket shots in at once and try to generate control
                Message 7 of 26 , Dec 1, 2007
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                  I don't fully understand the work flow for bracketed shots in PTgui.
                  I too have problems If I bring all my bracket shots in at once and
                  try to generate control points. It seems that PTgui should only
                  generate points for one bracketed series rather than all of them. If
                  you have a lot of images, it can get kind of confusing sorting through
                  all those points.

                  So here is what I have been doing, with good results:

                  I bring in my main bracketed series (usually the medium bracket). I
                  stitch that as normal in PTGui. When satisfied, I then bring in the
                  other bracketed shots using the Source Images tab and position the
                  images accordingly using the Up and Down arrows.

                  After bring in the other bracketed series of shots, click on the HDR
                  tab & enable HDR stitching. PTGui recognizes the brackets as an HDR
                  sequence. From there you can either link the images so that the other
                  brackets stitch exactly the same as your main bracket, or you can
                  keep the images unlinked, at which point PTGu is supposed to align
                  them as best as possible.

                  At this point, however, I have my own question:

                  When rendering a HDR sequence with unlinked images - do the other
                  bracketed sequences need their own control points? Or will the
                  unlinked images with no control points be generated as if they were
                  linked, and PTGui will then attempt to align those as best as possible?

                  I did a test on a HDR pano that had control points associated with
                  only one bracket. I did two renderings, one as linked and one
                  unlinked. There was no difference I could see in the final output.

                  Can anyone offer more work flow tips on using unlinked images in PTgui?




                  --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "verifone411" <kieranmullen@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Well ow we are going to the question of why I did what I did, rather
                  > than why does it do what it does... I am just trying to figure out
                  > why it does what it does. I doubt I will take 9 HDR image shots too
                  > often anyway.
                  >
                  > I would also seem to think that if one could pre align the pictures
                  > in the program via low res preview that woudl save computing time as
                  > well.
                  >
                  > Or does it do it already based on the order of which they are loaded?
                  >
                  > Thank you
                  >
                  > KieranMullen
                  >
                • Erik Krause
                  ... Because in over- and underexposed areas there are no control points possible. I suspect one shoots HDR because there is a large dynamic range. If one side
                  Message 8 of 26 , Dec 1, 2007
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                    On Saturday, December 01, 2007 at 3:27, verifone411 wrote:

                    > Thus only the first image should get control points generated. The
                    > images images do within the bracketed set do not need control points

                    Because in over- and underexposed areas there are no control points
                    possible. I suspect one shoots HDR because there is a large dynamic
                    range. If one side of the first image of a bracketed set is
                    completely overexposed but the other isn't, PTGui needs to use the
                    darker images instead to generate relevant CPs. But on the darker one
                    the other side might be underexposed, hence the control points from
                    the first image are needed...

                    You could argue that it would be sufficient to generate CPs in other
                    but the first image only if in the first one there weren't relevant
                    ones. But if the user decides to unlink images after that, there are
                    no control points in lots of images. I guess that is why Joost
                    decided to create CPs for all of them, even if they are linked...

                    > from example 0 & 7 (why cant we start at 1?)

                    For historical reasons: C programmers always start counting with 0.
                    ;-)

                    Best regards
                    --
                    http://www.erik-krause.de
                  • Matthew Rogers
                    Hi Carel, I normally try and stay out of these debates but making such a broad sweeping statement about the 360Precision head is simply not acceptable. One
                    Message 9 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                      Hi Carel,

                      I normally try and stay out of these debates but making such a broad
                      sweeping statement about the 360Precision head is simply not
                      acceptable. One thing I've learnt whilst dealing with thousands of
                      photographers over the past 3-4 years is experience means nothing.
                      Just because someone has been involved in panoramic photography since
                      it's inception doesn't mean they actually know what they're talking
                      about. In-fact it quite often means there so stuck in their ways that
                      they're not willing to accept change.

                      I've seen complete beginners create technically perfect panoramas
                      after a weekend of training yet others take years. Shooting on carpet
                      if you have a properly set-up tripod and head shouldn't pose any real
                      problems.

                      The twin bearing set-up in the 360Precision Absolute and Adjuste base
                      is designed specifically to isolate as much head vibration and
                      movement from effecting or moving the tripod. It's this very reason
                      that no other head whether the manufacturer calls it a precision or
                      not, will never work as well. One sealed bearing or plastic bush will
                      never work as well, we know, we tried the same designs.

                      If your tripod or set-up is moving on carpet and hard-floors then I
                      suggest it's time to upgrade your equipment because this shouldn't
                      happen. Another cause is standing directly next to the tripod leg when
                      shooting. Try to stand as far away from the tripod as possible and
                      always use mirror lock-up and a remote release if possible.

                      A better test is to shoot 3-4 panoramas in succession and overlay the
                      individual images in Photoshop. Switch the blend mode of the top image
                      to difference, the results should be as close to a black image as
                      possible. The blend image will never be completely black as two images
                      will never be 100% identical.

                      Matt
                      360Precision Ltd
                      http://www.360precision.com

                      On 1 Dec 2007, at 05:02, Carel wrote:

                      >
                      > Kiran,
                      >
                      > I have read the other answers but just want to address one issue:
                      > You say "
                      > heavy manfrotto tripod CON CARPET" Carpets are the worst and your
                      > 360precision will be useless on a carpet. I once attached a laser to
                      > the
                      > camera, pointing it upward to the ceiling. When the tripod is on a
                      > carpet
                      > you can see the laser move up to 1 inch on the ceiling. Even on a
                      > wooden
                      > floor without carpet there is still a lot of movement while you turn
                      > with
                      > the camera to stay out of the shot.
                      >
                      > Carel Struycken
                      > --
                      > View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-control-points-are-determined-in-bracketed-shots-using-PTGUI-tf4926132.html#a14102301
                      > Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • verifone411
                      I understand what you and others have said about the over and under exposed images not having enough control points, however shouldnt the first image of a
                      Message 10 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                        I understand what you and others have said about the over and under
                        exposed images not having enough control points, however shouldnt the
                        first image of a bracketed set, the metered image, be able to
                        generate sufficient control points?

                        Would it make any difference to give the user the option to only use
                        control points from the metered shot whaterv order it is in ? eg. 0,-
                        ,+ or -,0,+ etc just to take the 0 and use that as a model? Then
                        perhaps give the user the option to over ride the master image in
                        case like you say the image is deleted.

                        Thank you for your information! 3am time for bed.

                        KieranMullen


                        --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, "Erik Krause" <erik.krause@...>
                        wrote:
                        >
                        > On Saturday, December 01, 2007 at 3:27, verifone411 wrote:
                        >
                        > > Thus only the first image should get control points generated. The
                        > > images images do within the bracketed set do not need control
                        points
                        >
                        > Because in over- and underexposed areas there are no control points
                        > possible. I suspect one shoots HDR because there is a large dynamic
                        > range. If one side of the first image of a bracketed set is
                        > completely overexposed but the other isn't, PTGui needs to use the
                        > darker images instead to generate relevant CPs. But on the darker
                        one
                        > the other side might be underexposed, hence the control points from
                        > the first image are needed...
                        >
                        > You could argue that it would be sufficient to generate CPs in
                        other
                        > but the first image only if in the first one there weren't relevant
                        > ones. But if the user decides to unlink images after that, there
                        are
                        > no control points in lots of images. I guess that is why Joost
                        > decided to create CPs for all of them, even if they are linked...
                        >
                        > > from example 0 & 7 (why cant we start at 1?)
                        >
                        > For historical reasons: C programmers always start counting with 0.
                        > ;-)
                        >
                        > Best regards
                        > --
                        > http://www.erik-krause.de
                        >
                      • Erik Krause
                        ... If you shoot f.e. EV 0, -2, 2 this should be the case, but what if you shoot -2, 0, 2 as some cameras do? Or even more brackets? For a standard room with a
                        Message 11 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                          On Sunday, December 02, 2007 at 11:24, verifone411 wrote:

                          > I understand what you and others have said about the over and under
                          > exposed images not having enough control points, however shouldnt the
                          > first image of a bracketed set, the metered image, be able to
                          > generate sufficient control points?

                          If you shoot f.e. EV 0, -2, 2 this should be the case, but what if
                          you shoot -2, 0, 2 as some cameras do? Or even more brackets? For a
                          standard room with a view you most often need 5 brackets (at 2 EV
                          steps).

                          There is absolutely no guarantee which image is the "correct"
                          exposure, since shooting a more than 3 brackets HDR will involve to
                          meter the darkest spot that still needs texture, meter the lightest
                          spot and choose the amount of brackets. It could well be that in such
                          a panorama most of the images in the first two brackets are almost
                          completely black, since you need the short exposure times only for
                          the windows and eventually lamps... In any case it is a good strategy
                          to get CPs from as many images as possible.

                          best regards
                          --
                          http://www.erik-krause.de
                        • erik leeman
                          I don t think Carel intended to say anything negative about the 360Precision at all Matt, the way I read it is more like even a panohead as good as the
                          Message 12 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                            I don't think Carel intended to say anything negative about the
                            360Precision at all Matt, the way I read it is more like "even a
                            panohead as good as the 360Precision cannot do its job properly on a
                            carpet", and I think he is perfectly right about that.
                            You need to use spiked tripod legs on surfaces like thick carpets or
                            soft soil and push them down really hard. When you can't do that
                            because of possible damage to the carpet you should at least make your
                            tripod as heavy as possible. Flexing wooden floors have been a serious
                            problem for me as well, standing as far away from the tripod legs as
                            possible helps, a motorized panohead rotator and/or a wireless remote
                            shutter release would be ideal for this.

                            Regards,

                            erik leeman

                            (www.erikleeman.com)
                          • Hans Nyberg
                            ... Matt, Carel is in no way saying anything about the precision of the 360precision. He just says that there are other factors which can very easy change this
                            Message 13 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                              --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Rogers <matthew@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > Hi Carel,
                              >
                              > I normally try and stay out of these debates but making such a broad
                              > sweeping statement about the 360Precision head is simply not
                              > acceptable.

                              Matt,
                              Carel is in no way saying anything about the precision of the 360precision.

                              He just says that there are other factors which can very easy change this precision.

                              I just did a very simple test.
                              My floor is standard 22mm plates with a carpet on and I placed my large heavy Manfrotto
                              tripod 058 on it.
                              I took a monopod and fastened it at a stable shelf 1,5 m from the tripod and moved it
                              until it almost touched the top of the tripod vertical pole.

                              The movement when walking around as you would normally do for taking the panorama
                              was 1mm.
                              That means that you get different pitches on the images and using template stitching will
                              give you errors.
                              And that has nothing to do with the panohead.

                              You say the same yourself below so why are you complaining.

                              Hans

                              One thing I've learnt whilst dealing with thousands of
                              > photographers over the past 3-4 years is experience means nothing.
                              > Just because someone has been involved in panoramic photography since
                              > it's inception doesn't mean they actually know what they're talking
                              > about. In-fact it quite often means there so stuck in their ways that
                              > they're not willing to accept change.
                              >
                              > I've seen complete beginners create technically perfect panoramas
                              > after a weekend of training yet others take years. Shooting on carpet
                              > if you have a properly set-up tripod and head shouldn't pose any real
                              > problems.
                              >
                              > The twin bearing set-up in the 360Precision Absolute and Adjuste base
                              > is designed specifically to isolate as much head vibration and
                              > movement from effecting or moving the tripod. It's this very reason
                              > that no other head whether the manufacturer calls it a precision or
                              > not, will never work as well. One sealed bearing or plastic bush will
                              > never work as well, we know, we tried the same designs.
                              >
                              > If your tripod or set-up is moving on carpet and hard-floors then I
                              > suggest it's time to upgrade your equipment because this shouldn't
                              > happen. Another cause is standing directly next to the tripod leg when
                              > shooting. Try to stand as far away from the tripod as possible and
                              > always use mirror lock-up and a remote release if possible.
                              >
                              > A better test is to shoot 3-4 panoramas in succession and overlay the
                              > individual images in Photoshop. Switch the blend mode of the top image
                              > to difference, the results should be as close to a black image as
                              > possible. The blend image will never be completely black as two images
                              > will never be 100% identical.
                              >
                              > Matt
                              > 360Precision Ltd
                              > http://www.360precision.com
                              >
                              > On 1 Dec 2007, at 05:02, Carel wrote:
                              >
                              > >
                              > > Kiran,
                              > >
                              > > I have read the other answers but just want to address one issue:
                              > > You say "
                              > > heavy manfrotto tripod CON CARPET" Carpets are the worst and your
                              > > 360precision will be useless on a carpet. I once attached a laser to
                              > > the
                              > > camera, pointing it upward to the ceiling. When the tripod is on a
                              > > carpet
                              > > you can see the laser move up to 1 inch on the ceiling. Even on a
                              > > wooden
                              > > floor without carpet there is still a lot of movement while you turn
                              > > with
                              > > the camera to stay out of the shot.
                              > >
                              > > Carel Struycken
                            • Erik Krause
                              ... ...or simply the self timer of the camera. 10 seconds should be enough to walk away from the tripod and eventually even close the door behind you... best
                              Message 14 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                On Sunday, December 02, 2007 at 11:44, erik leeman wrote:

                                > Flexing wooden floors have been a serious
                                > problem for me as well, standing as far away from the tripod legs as
                                > possible helps, a motorized panohead rotator and/or a wireless remote
                                > shutter release would be ideal for this.

                                ...or simply the self timer of the camera. 10 seconds should be
                                enough to walk away from the tripod and eventually even close the
                                door behind you...

                                best regards
                                --
                                http://www.erik-krause.de
                              • erik leeman
                                Sorry, but that wouldn t help much because you d have to approach and leave the camera for every single shot. Every move you make can (and will) disturb the
                                Message 15 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                  Sorry, but that wouldn't help much because you'd have to approach and
                                  leave the camera for every single shot. Every move you make can (and
                                  will) disturb the position of the camera under such circumstances.
                                  Because the combined center of gravity of the camera + panohead is
                                  never aligned with the vertical axis of rotation of the tripod some
                                  displacement will always occur when the tripod is not stable enough,
                                  therefore even a remotely controlled rotator might not prevent errors
                                  completely.

                                  Regards,

                                  erik leeman

                                  (www.erikleeman.com)
                                • Matthew Rogers
                                  Hi Hans, I do realise the context or Carel s statement but I m sick of wasting my time defending comments made on forums and email lists that ultimately have
                                  Message 16 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                    Hi Hans,

                                    I do realise the context or Carel's statement but I'm sick of wasting
                                    my time defending comments made on forums and email lists that
                                    ultimately have nothing to do with our products. My new tactic is to
                                    clarify any comments when and where they're made. Hopefully I won't
                                    have to explain to 20 people individually that you can in-fact use a
                                    360precision set-up on carpet. A lot of the time people don't realise
                                    how highly regarded comments on lists like this are taken, whether
                                    they're correct or not.

                                    The thing is Hans, you may realise what Carel meant. Believe me
                                    though, there are a lot of people that will take his statement to mean
                                    you can't use 360Precision with a template when shooting on carpet and
                                    this is b.s.

                                    Like I said, if you guys are having problems don't blame the head or
                                    the carpet, blame your set-up or technique. Personally I've shot
                                    hundreds of locations for real estate tours with 1-2 templates and
                                    have not noticed any major problems. And I've shot rooms with carpet,
                                    tiles, floorboards, slate, glass, I've even shot in swimming pools and
                                    hot tubs.

                                    A large part of this comes down to understanding how precise you
                                    actually need to be when shooting.

                                    Matt

                                    On 2 Dec 2007, at 12:06, Hans Nyberg wrote:

                                    > --- In PanoToolsNG@yahoogroups.com, Matthew Rogers <matthew@...>
                                    > wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > > Hi Carel,
                                    > >
                                    > > I normally try and stay out of these debates but making such a broad
                                    > > sweeping statement about the 360Precision head is simply not
                                    > > acceptable.
                                    >
                                    > Matt,
                                    > Carel is in no way saying anything about the precision of the
                                    > 360precision.
                                    >
                                    > He just says that there are other factors which can very easy change
                                    > this precision.
                                    >
                                    > I just did a very simple test.
                                    > My floor is standard 22mm plates with a carpet on and I placed my
                                    > large heavy Manfrotto
                                    > tripod 058 on it.
                                    > I took a monopod and fastened it at a stable shelf 1,5 m from the
                                    > tripod and moved it
                                    > until it almost touched the top of the tripod vertical pole.
                                    >
                                    > The movement when walking around as you would normally do for taking
                                    > the panorama
                                    > was 1mm.
                                    > That means that you get different pitches on the images and using
                                    > template stitching will
                                    > give you errors.
                                    > And that has nothing to do with the panohead.
                                    >
                                    > You say the same yourself below so why are you complaining.
                                    >
                                    > Hans
                                    >
                                  • Erik Krause
                                    ... I don t see that as pessimistic as you. Although it won t help under certain circumstances, it might well help to use a self timer and walk away under
                                    Message 17 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                      On Sunday, December 02, 2007 at 12:39, erik leeman wrote:

                                      > Sorry, but that wouldn't help much because you'd have to approach and
                                      > leave the camera for every single shot.

                                      I don't see that as pessimistic as you. Although it won't help under
                                      certain circumstances, it might well help to use a self timer and
                                      walk away under other ones - f.e. in case of an elastic wooden floor.

                                      And there certainly are other possibilities, like f.e. to weigh the
                                      tripod down by hanging a heavy bag under it etc...

                                      BTW.: I (and many others too) would appreciate if you quote what you
                                      refer to. It makes reading of an answer much easier if the context is
                                      known. For details please see:
                                      http://www.netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html

                                      best regards


                                      --
                                      http://www.erik-krause.de
                                    • Keith Martin
                                      ... Interesting list! My personal more extreme shooting environments so far have been the sea (meaning the shore, not the deeps), on rickety scaffolding
                                      Message 18 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                        Sometime around 2/12/07 (at 12:54 +0000) Matthew Rogers said:

                                        >I've shot rooms with carpet,
                                        >tiles, floorboards, slate, glass, I've even shot in swimming pools and
                                        >hot tubs.

                                        Interesting list!
                                        My personal more extreme shooting environments so far have been the
                                        sea (meaning the shore, not the deeps), on rickety scaffolding
                                        boards, deep mud, and in the middle of hard-core dance festival
                                        crowds. At times those last two were together. And yes, the bottom of
                                        my tripod legs *are* still just a bit muddy.
                                        I've also shot from a paraglider, but no tripod or head was involved there. ;-)

                                        I wonder what other extreme conditions people have been in when
                                        shooting panos? Probably some would put my examples to shame!

                                        Anyway, thanks to the head and a modicum of care, some of the pano
                                        shots from festivals were exceptionally successful. One was used for
                                        the cover of my recent CS3 Integration book.

                                        My Absolute head is solid.
                                        My tripod is also solid, although I do wish I had a lighter one.
                                        If the surface my tripod is on isn't solid, then I need to watch for
                                        this and also be ready to deal with this afterwards when stitching.
                                        Basic common sense.

                                        I try to avoid introducing instability as I walk around the tripod,
                                        but there are times when this can't be avoided entirely, solid
                                        head/tripod or not. And that's what control points in PTGui help to
                                        counteract.

                                        k
                                      • Sacha Griffin
                                        Ideally, you should NOT be trying to optimize your lens every single time you shoot. You should do your optimization one time, in an ideal environment. HDR is
                                        Message 19 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                          Ideally, you should NOT be trying to optimize your lens every single time
                                          you shoot.

                                          You should do your optimization one time, in an ideal environment. HDR is
                                          unnecessary for this step.

                                          1 set of images around with excellently placed control points, will optimize
                                          your lens and your template.



                                          Then you only need to apply this template to ANY other shooting situation if
                                          you're using the almighty precision head.

                                          You only need 3-4 cps per image set for stitching, with an already optimized
                                          lens. And I have always assumed.. 0 cps with the precision head.



                                          One should only need to attempt cp's across and hdr set with an uncalibrated
                                          lens, a wobbly head, handheld shots, head without accurate detents, when
                                          you're unsure about your template, etc.



                                          When looking at your ptgui project, you'll find many cps that are not
                                          optimized/used.

                                          Sacha Griffin
                                          Southern Digital Solutions LLC - Atlanta, Georgia
                                          www.southern-digital.com
                                          www.seeit360.net
                                          www.ezphotosafe.com
                                          404-551-4275
                                          404-731-7798

                                          I understand what you and others have said about the over and under
                                          exposed images not having enough control points, however shouldnt the
                                          first image of a bracketed set, the metered image, be able to
                                          generate sufficient control points?

                                          Would it make any difference to give the user the option to only use
                                          control points from the metered shot whaterv order it is in ? eg. 0,-
                                          ,+ or -,0,+ etc just to take the 0 and use that as a model? Then
                                          perhaps give the user the option to over ride the master image in
                                          case like you say the image is deleted.

                                          Thank you for your information! 3am time for bed.

                                          KieranMullen

                                          --- In PanoToolsNG@ <mailto:PanoToolsNG%40yahoogroups.com> yahoogroups.com,
                                          "Erik Krause" <erik.krause@...>
                                          wrote:
                                          >
                                          > On Saturday, December 01, 2007 at 3:27, verifone411 wrote:
                                          >
                                          > > Thus only the first image should get control points generated. The
                                          > > images images do within the bracketed set do not need control
                                          points
                                          >
                                          > Because in over- and underexposed areas there are no control points
                                          > possible. I suspect one shoots HDR because there is a large dynamic
                                          > range. If one side of the first image of a bracketed set is
                                          > completely overexposed but the other isn't, PTGui needs to use the
                                          > darker images instead to generate relevant CPs. But on the darker
                                          one
                                          > the other side might be underexposed, hence the control points from
                                          > the first image are needed...
                                          >
                                          > You could argue that it would be sufficient to generate CPs in
                                          other
                                          > but the first image only if in the first one there weren't relevant
                                          > ones. But if the user decides to unlink images after that, there
                                          are
                                          > no control points in lots of images. I guess that is why Joost
                                          > decided to create CPs for all of them, even if they are linked...
                                          >
                                          > > from example 0 & 7 (why cant we start at 1?)
                                          >
                                          > For historical reasons: C programmers always start counting with 0.
                                          > ;-)
                                          >
                                          > Best regards
                                          > --
                                          > http://www.erik- <http://www.erik-krause.de> krause.de
                                          >





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Carel
                                          ... Hi Matt, I made a simple observation that one should not try to figure out what is going on with mis-aligned control points by doing a test on a carpet.
                                          Message 20 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                            Matthew Rogers-2 wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Hi Carel,
                                            >
                                            > I normally try and stay out of these debates but making such a broad
                                            > sweeping statement about the 360Precision head is simply not
                                            > acceptable. One thing I've learnt whilst dealing with thousands of
                                            > photographers over the past 3-4 years is experience means nothing.
                                            > Just because someone has been involved in panoramic photography since
                                            > it's inception doesn't mean they actually know what they're talking
                                            > about. In-fact it quite often means there so stuck in their ways that
                                            > they're not willing to accept change.
                                            >

                                            Hi Matt,

                                            I made a simple observation that one should not try to figure out what is
                                            going on with mis-aligned control points by doing a test on a carpet. You
                                            can use the universe's best pano head and it will still not make a
                                            difference as the errors caused by movement of the carpet & floor will be
                                            much bigger. It is not that hard to shoot a pano in such circumstances, but
                                            any reasonably decent panohead will do. I have had many situations where I
                                            wished I had a 360Precision, but a carpeted floor would not have been one of
                                            those. The reason that I have not bought a 360Precision yet is that I use
                                            two cameras and 3 lenses and often decide on the spot which one I will use.
                                            It is not that I am stuck in my ways, as you opine, it's that I so often use
                                            different setups, while the 360Precision only allows one.

                                            Carel Struycken

                                            --
                                            View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-control-points-are-determined-in-bracketed-shots-using-PTGUI-tf4926132.html#a14119009
                                            Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
                                          • 360 Precision
                                            Hi Carel, Your email proves my point. We launched our fully adjustable precision head over 12 months ago, so why not buy one of those ? I just don t know why
                                            Message 21 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                              Hi Carel,

                                              Your email proves my point. We launched our fully adjustable
                                              precision head over 12 months ago, so why not buy one of those ? I
                                              just don't know why you have so much trouble shooting panos on
                                              carpet ? I can understand shooting on 10mm pile carpet but we ain't
                                              living in the 70s.

                                              Matt


                                              > Hi Matt,
                                              >
                                              > I made a simple observation that one should not try to figure out
                                              > what is
                                              > going on with mis-aligned control points by doing a test on a
                                              > carpet. You
                                              > can use the universe's best pano head and it will still not make a
                                              > difference as the errors caused by movement of the carpet & floor
                                              > will be
                                              > much bigger. It is not that hard to shoot a pano in such
                                              > circumstances, but
                                              > any reasonably decent panohead will do. I have had many situations
                                              > where I
                                              > wished I had a 360Precision, but a carpeted floor would not have
                                              > been one of
                                              > those. The reason that I have not bought a 360Precision yet is that
                                              > I use
                                              > two cameras and 3 lenses and often decide on the spot which one I
                                              > will use.
                                              > It is not that I am stuck in my ways, as you opine, it's that I so
                                              > often use
                                              > different setups, while the 360Precision only allows one.
                                              >
                                              > Carel Struycken
                                            • Carel
                                              ... Matt, Why do you keep mis-interpreting what I say? I have no trouble shooting panos on a carpet. I regularly shoot from a 6m hand held pole that sways in
                                              Message 22 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                                Matthew Rogers-2 wrote:
                                                >
                                                > Hi Carel,
                                                >
                                                > Your email proves my point. We launched our fully adjustable
                                                > precision head over 12 months ago, so why not buy one of those ? I
                                                > just don't know why you have so much trouble shooting panos on
                                                > carpet ? I can understand shooting on 10mm pile carpet but we ain't
                                                > living in the 70s.
                                                >
                                                > Matt
                                                >
                                                >

                                                Matt,

                                                Why do you keep mis-interpreting what I say? I have no trouble shooting
                                                panos on a carpet. I regularly shoot from a 6m hand held pole that sways in
                                                the wind (another scenario where a 360Precision would not be of much use).
                                                There are situations where I wish for a template-able panohead like the
                                                360Precision, but nowhere on your website have I found information that the
                                                Precision Adjuste is template-able.

                                                Carel

                                                --
                                                View this message in context: http://www.nabble.com/How-control-points-are-determined-in-bracketed-shots-using-PTGUI-tf4933166.html#a14120732
                                                Sent from the PanoToolsNG mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
                                              • Keith Martin
                                                Prickles all round, eh? Personally, I find Carel s various posts to be very interesting (the Mt. Wilson Observatory object movie was wonderful!), and I find
                                                Message 23 of 26 , Dec 2, 2007
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                                                  Prickles all 'round, eh?

                                                  Personally, I find Carel's various posts to be very interesting (the
                                                  Mt. Wilson Observatory object movie was wonderful!), and I find
                                                  Matt's products to be superb. And you both give great advice. For me,
                                                  the disagreements and the rest aren't important. I just put it down
                                                  to the kind of free-thinking individualist that gets into panorama
                                                  creation... :-)

                                                  Carel, I'm about to test an Adjuste, as soon as I finish marking some
                                                  MA dissertations. I haven't tried it yet, but I have examined it
                                                  carefully. Yes, it should be every bit as template-able as the
                                                  Absolute. You'd just need to note down or mark the right positions
                                                  for your different combinations of camera/lens equipment.
                                                  Here's a pre-test assessment if you want one: It is a serious
                                                  investment to make, but I reckon it'd let you have your cake and eat
                                                  it too.

                                                  But don't go using it on trampolines, ok? (sorry, silly joke ;-)

                                                  k
                                                  --

                                                  Keith Martin
                                                  Author, Creative Suite 3 Integration (Focal Press)
                                                  Senior Lecturer in Publishing, LCC (University of the Arts, London)
                                                  Technical Editor, MacUser magazine
                                                  design, programming, VR photography, consultancy

                                                  http://www.thesmallest.com
                                                  iChat/AIM & Skype ThatKeith
                                                • verifone411
                                                  For those having issues with panos on carpet and flexing wooden floors.. Is it a matter of not finding any auto stich points? Are you use ing PTGUi? if so does
                                                  Message 24 of 26 , Dec 4, 2007
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                                                    For those having issues with panos on carpet and flexing wooden floors..

                                                    Is it a matter of not finding any auto stich points?

                                                    Are you use ing PTGUi? if so does it rate it ias very good, good, bad
                                                    very bad etc...

                                                    Thank you

                                                    Kieran
                                                  • Erik Krause
                                                    ... Yes, of course. That are those between images inside a linked set - as long as this set stays linked. They get used as soon as you unlink the images and
                                                    Message 25 of 26 , Dec 4, 2007
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                                                      On Sunday, December 02, 2007 at 12:47, Sacha Griffin wrote:

                                                      > When looking at your ptgui project, you'll find many cps that are not
                                                      > optimized/used.

                                                      Yes, of course. That are those between images inside a linked set -
                                                      as long as this set stays linked. They get used as soon as you unlink
                                                      the images and optimize again. This might be necessary sometimes if
                                                      you discover that there are HDR merging errors between those
                                                      images...

                                                      best regards
                                                      --
                                                      http://www.erik-krause.de
                                                    • PanoToolsNG.10.m8@spamgourmet.com
                                                      I think the reference to carpets and flexing wooden floors, is regarding using a fixed PTGui template and pin registered panohead giving the (possible) ability
                                                      Message 26 of 26 , Dec 4, 2007
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                                                        I think the reference to carpets and flexing wooden floors, is regarding
                                                        using a fixed PTGui template and pin registered panohead giving the
                                                        (possible) ability to not need optimising.
                                                        ie. Load images into a pre-prepared ptgui template and just stitch. So, no
                                                        cp's and no optimising.
                                                        (you 'do' have to follow a fairly rigourous set of repeatable rules for this
                                                        to work well)

                                                        In general carpet and wooden floors etc. are not a problem when you are
                                                        going to insert cp's and optimise.
                                                        (unless there is something 'very' close to the camera :-)

                                                        Cheers,
                                                        Darren.

                                                        )-----Original Message-----
                                                        )From: verifone411
                                                        )
                                                        )For those having issues with panos on carpet and flexing
                                                        )wooden floors..
                                                        )
                                                        )Is it a matter of not finding any auto stich points?
                                                        )
                                                        )Are you use ing PTGUi? if so does it rate it ias very good,
                                                        )good, bad very bad etc...
                                                        )
                                                        )Thank you
                                                        )
                                                        )Kieran
                                                        )
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