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Re: SV: [Pali] bhikkhu=beggar?

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  • John Kelly
    Dear Yong Peng, I agree with the points you make below concerning beggar not being an appropriate current English translation for bhikkhu , even though of
    Message 1 of 45 , Feb 6, 2006
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      Dear Yong Peng,

      I agree with the points you make below concerning "beggar" not being
      an appropriate current English translation for "bhikkhu", even though
      of course that is it's etymological root.

      The one thing I disagree on is "monk" being the best translation.
      That has too many other connotations in English usage. I think now
      that leaving it untranslated is best of all, and in fact that's what
      Bhikkhu Bodhi does in all his modern translations - "Connected
      Discourses of the Buddha", "In the Buddha's Words". And another
      reason I like it is that bhikkhu can very often be expanded in meaning
      in the suttas to mean any serious Buddhist practitioner (lay or
      monastic), just as the Buddha expands the meanings of ariyan, brahman,
      samana, etc. E.g., see chapter 25 (Bhikkhu vagga) of the Dhammapada.

      With metta,
      John
      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ong Yong Peng" <pali.smith@...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Gunnar, Ole, Rett and friends,
      >
      > I agree that beggar is not exactly the right word for bhikkhu.
      >
      > 1. In Pali, there are words for beggar, e.g. yaacaka, kapa.na, etc.
      > Besides, the Vinaya is not rules for "monks" per se. And, bhikkhusangha
      > is not exactly the community of beggars.
      >
      > 2. As such, bhikkhu is a word referring to a monastic, and going for
      > alms rounds is just one of the many monastic rules. I still think the
      > closest word for bhikkhu in English is monk. Furthermore, unlike
      > beggars, monks have rules governing when and what they can 'beg' for,
      > and other rules governing just the 'begging'. Unlike monks, I have not
      > heard of rules for beggars 2500 years ago.
      >
      > 3. A bhikkhu is also different from a beggar in his social function and
      > social status. A bhikkhu, unlike a beggar, has social obligations to
      > the Sangha and the wider Buddhist community. A bhikkhu also has a
      > social status much higher than a beggar.
      >
      > Of course, there are many more points which I must have missed. This is
      > a good word to add to Pali Scope, if anyone is interested to expand on
      > it. We can include the etymology of the word to contrast the difference
      > between origin and usage.
      >
      >
      > metta,
      > Yong Peng.
      >
      >
      >
      > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Gunnar Gällmo wrote:
      >
      > In any case, according to the Dhammapada, begging alone is not enough
      > to make a bhikkhu in the Buddhist sense of the word (na tena bhikkhu
      > hoti yaavataa bhikkhate pare).
      >
    • madan tandon
      ASURA does not find its origin in Persian. Asura is a Sanskrit word meaning:- spiritual , incorporeal , divine RV. AV. VS. ; m. a spirit , good spirit ,
      Message 45 of 45 , Feb 18, 2006
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        ASURA does not find its origin in Persian. Asura is a Sanskrit word meaning:- spiritual , incorporeal , divine RV. AV. VS. ; m. a spirit , good spirit , supreme spirit (and more). Asura find its origins starting from Vedic to classic ot modern Sanskrit.
        RV= RigaVeda

        with love,
        biloo_5

        -----------------------------------------------------------------------------------


        Gunnar Gällmo <gunnargallmo@...> wrote:
        --- joseph <jothiko@...> skrev:

        > the word Asura certainly found it's origin in the
        > persian Ahura,

        Or vice versa, or perhaps the two words just have the
        same origin in an older, common Indo-Iranian language.
        The zoroastrian word for "demon", by the way, is
        "daeva" - same as "deva". (On the other hand, the old
        Greek "daimons" - from which comes English "demon" -
        were not necessarily evil; Socrates had a high regard
        for his daimon.)

        > logical enough, the enemies god is ones devil.

        According to some theory, the daevas and ahuras in
        ancient Iranian religion perhaps had the same roles as
        the devas en asuras in ancient Indian one to begin
        with, but Zoroaster put it all upside down.

        In any case, Persian is an Indo-European language, so
        it is closer to Pali than to Hebrew.

        Gunnar




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