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references thomas requested [Pali] Re: Meditation of heat

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  • rett
    ... Hi Thomas and group, I realize you asked Dmytro but I happen to have the translation of M62 in front of me (probably for the same reason you were
    Message 1 of 19 , Jan 5, 2006
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      >
      >
      >Could you translate the texts into English here (or indicate the
      >page number/s of the English version)? Thank you.

      Hi Thomas and group,

      I realize you asked Dmytro but I happen to have the translation of M62 in front of me (probably for the same reason you were interested in it)

      In Ña.namoli/Bodhi's translation (_The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha) the first passage Dmytro cites is on page 528, last paragraph. The second passage is on page 530, second full paragraph. In Horner's PTS translation (_Middle Length Sayings_), which is inferior to Ña.namoli/Bodhi, the corresponding locations are Vol II, page 92, paragraph starting at the bottom and page 94, paragraph starting at the bottom.

      best regards

      /Rett
    • Ole Holten Pind
      tejo-dhaatu means element of fire. In a human being it is responsible
      Message 2 of 19 , Jan 5, 2006
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        < I wonder if Tejo-dhaatu means INTENSE meditation rather than HEAT
        meditation. >

        tejo-dhaatu means "element of fire." In a human being it is responsible for
        digestion as you can see from the MahaaRaahulovadasuttanta; and as I have
        explained it has nothing whatsoever to do with meditation. The tejo.kasi.na
        meitation is something totally different.

        Regards,

        Ole Pind




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      • Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko
        Thomas, Rett kindly gave reference to Maharahulovada sutta. Sangiti sutta, where tejo-kasina is mentioned, is Digha Nikaya 33. It s interesting that
        Message 3 of 19 , Jan 5, 2006
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          Thomas,

          Rett kindly gave reference to Maharahulovada sutta.

          Sangiti sutta, where tejo-kasina is mentioned, is Digha Nikaya 33.

          It's interesting that Visuddhimagga (chapter V) gives reference to the
          case you analyze:

          "The fire kasina is the basis for such powers as smoking, flaming,
          causing showers of sparks, countering fire with fire, ability to burn
          only what one wants to burn (S.iv,290), causing light for the purpose of
          seeing visible objects with the divine eye, burning up the body by means
          of the fire element at the time of attaining nibbana (MA.iv,196)."

          The tejo-kasina is mentioned in various parts of Sutta-pitaka about 10
          times.

          Dmytro
        • thomaslaw03
          Dear Dmyro, Rett, and friends, Thank you very much for the references. The Maharahulovada sutta (MN 62) and Sangiti sutta (DN 33) do not indicate how to
          Message 4 of 19 , Jan 5, 2006
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            Dear Dmyro, Rett, and friends,

            Thank you very much for the references.

            The Maharahulovada sutta (MN 62) and Sangiti sutta (DN 33) do not
            indicate how to practise the heat or fire, tejo. They only mention
            the term, tejo-dhaatu (in MN 62) or tejo-kasi.na (in DN 33). The
            reference in Visuddhimagga that you mentioned here is certainly
            interesting about the powers of tejo-kasi.na.

            Having read these texts, it is still hard to understand how the
            individual can actually control the heat or fire element within his
            body, up to the ability of burning the entire body up by himself
            (such as in Udana 8. 9: PTS, pp. 92-3)

            Regards,

            Thomas Law

            > "Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko" <aavuso@g...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Rett kindly gave reference to Maharahulovada sutta.
            >
            > Sangiti sutta, where tejo-kasina is mentioned, is Digha Nikaya 33.
            >
            > It's interesting that Visuddhimagga (chapter V) gives reference to
            the
            > case you analyze:
            >
            > "The fire kasina is the basis for such powers as smoking, flaming,
            > causing showers of sparks, countering fire with fire, ability to
            burn
            > only what one wants to burn (S.iv,290), causing light for the
            purpose of
            > seeing visible objects with the divine eye, burning up the body by
            means
            > of the fire element at the time of attaining nibbana (MA.iv,196)."
            >
            > The tejo-kasina is mentioned in various parts of Sutta-pitaka
            about 10
            > times.
            >
          • rett
            Hi Thomas and group, ... One thing that might be relevant is that the idea of controlling heat to burn up oneself or enemies is a stock feature of puranic
            Message 5 of 19 , Jan 6, 2006
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              Hi Thomas and group,

              >
              >Having read these texts, it is still hard to understand how the
              >individual can actually control the heat or fire element within his
              >body, up to the ability of burning the entire body up by himself
              >(such as in Udana 8. 9: PTS, pp. 92-3)

              One thing that might be relevant is that the idea of controlling heat to burn up oneself or enemies is a stock feature of puranic stories about accomplished rishis. It's a widespread ancient Indian concept, so it's not surprising if it's reflected or mentioned within early Buddhist literature, even if there are no detailed instructions in the handbooks on how to do it (as far as I know).

              best regards,

              /Rett
            • Ole Holten Pind
              Dear Thomas,
              Message 6 of 19 , Jan 6, 2006
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                Dear Thomas,

                < Having read these texts, it is still hard to understand how the
                individual can actually control the heat or fire element within his
                body, up to the ability of burning the entire body up by himself
                (such as in Udana 8. 9: PTS, pp. 92-3) >

                The Udana story is about Dabba Mallaputta. He was known for his magical
                control over the fire element. The fact that he is sitting crosslegged in
                the air does not imply meditation at all, nor that he is practicing the
                tejokasi.na, and it is certainly not the fire within himself he controls,
                but the fire element that is baahira. The term tejodhaatu.m samaapajjitvaa
                only refers to the fact that he enters and becomes one with the fire
                element. The story, as I have mentioned before, illustrates some paradoxes
                concerning nibbaana. You might want to have a look into the amusing legends
                about Dabba and his magical powers in Vin III 160: he could, for instance,
                conjure up light when needed, and used a blazing finger as a lantern, and so
                on.

                Regards,

                Ole Pind


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              • thomaslaw03
                Dear Ole Pind, ... magical control over the fire element. Magical control seems to indicate that it is associated with meditation (meditative
                Message 7 of 19 , Jan 6, 2006
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                  Dear Ole Pind,

                  > The Udana story is about Dabba Mallaputta. He was known for his
                  magical control over the fire element. >

                  "Magical control" seems to indicate that it is associated
                  with "meditation" (meditative concentration) in general, such as
                  iddhi or iddhipaada.

                  >The fact that he is sitting crosslegged in the air does not imply
                  meditation at all, nor that he is practicing the tejokasi.na, and it
                  is certainly not the fire within himself he controls, but the fire
                  element that is baahira.>

                  I do not see this word, baahira, in the text. How do you know that
                  the fire element is baahira?

                  >The term tejodhaatu.m samaapajjitvaa only refers to the fact that
                  he enters and becomes one with the fire element.>

                  It does not mean that the fire element shown in the text
                  is "baahira".

                  >The story, as I have mentioned before, illustrates some paradoxes
                  >concerning nibbaana.

                  Not clear what you mean. Please explain.

                  >You might want to have a look into the amusing legends about Dabba
                  and his magical powers in Vin III 160: he could, for instance,
                  > conjure up light when needed, and used a blazing finger as a
                  lantern, and so on.>

                  This confirms that he is said to have such powers associated with
                  his magical practice of concentration: he has the psychic power to
                  control the heat.

                  Regards,

                  Thomas Law
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Thomas, Dmytro, Ole, Rett and friends, Thomas: I see that for some reason you have this interest in meditation of heat. In fact, I already feel some heat
                  Message 8 of 19 , Jan 7, 2006
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                    Dear Thomas, Dmytro, Ole, Rett and friends,

                    Thomas: I see that for some reason you have this interest in
                    meditation of heat. In fact, I already feel some heat in this
                    discussion. I notice that you have another message for Ole in the
                    queue. I will look at it next week before releasing it to the group.

                    Generally, I tend to agree with Ole that in this case the subject of
                    the sutta is not on meditation at all. Don't get me wrong, it is not
                    about any "magic in the air" either. In Buddhism, the purpose of
                    meditation is not about acquiring skills for some magical stunts. The
                    main objective is to calm the mind, to bring about a state of
                    tranquility which is conducive for contemplation.

                    Furthermore, the Buddha's disciples do not perform any "miracle acts"
                    without first seeking Buddha's permission. Just as in this sutta,
                    Dabba Mallaputta has been given "go ahead" by the Buddha. Remember
                    that Buddhism is not a religion which depends on miracles to work. It
                    is a religion which depends on wisdom. When you understanding cause
                    and effect, nothing is miraculous or wired anymore.


                    metta,
                    Yong Peng.



                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Ole Holten Pind wrote:

                    > < Having read these texts, it is still hard to understand how the
                    > individual can actually control the heat or fire element within his
                    > body, up to the ability of burning the entire body up by himself
                    > (such as in Udana 8. 9: PTS, pp. 92-3) >

                    The Udana story is about Dabba Mallaputta. He was known for his
                    magical control over the fire element. The fact that he is sitting
                    crosslegged in the air does not imply meditation at all, nor that he
                    is practicing the tejokasi.na, and it is certainly not the fire
                    within himself he controls, but the fire element that is baahira. The
                    term tejodhaatu.m samaapajjitvaa only refers to the fact that he
                    enters and becomes one with the fire element. The story, as I have
                    mentioned before, illustrates some paradoxes concerning nibbaana. You
                    might want to have a look into the amusing legends about Dabba and
                    his magical powers in Vin III 160: he could, for instance, conjure up
                    light when needed, and used a blazing finger as a lantern, and so on.
                  • thomaslaw03
                    Dear Yong Peng and friends, ... group. Thank you. I hope you could release it for discussion. ... of the sutta is not on meditation at all. Don t get me
                    Message 9 of 19 , Jan 7, 2006
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                      Dear Yong Peng and friends,

                      >"Ong Yong Peng" <yongpeng.ong@g...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Dear Thomas, Dmytro, Ole, Rett and friends,
                      >
                      > Thomas: I see that for some reason you have this interest in
                      > meditation of heat. In fact, I already feel some heat in this
                      > discussion. I notice that you have another message for Ole in the
                      > queue. I will look at it next week before releasing it to the
                      group.>

                      Thank you. I hope you could release it for discussion.

                      > Generally, I tend to agree with Ole that in this case the subject
                      of the sutta is not on meditation at all. Don't get me wrong, it is
                      not about any "magic in the air" either.>

                      I would like to hear from your opinion about the "tejodhaatu.m
                      samaapajjitvaa" shown in the sutta in this discussion.

                      >In Buddhism, the purpose of meditation is not about acquiring
                      skills for some magical stunts. The main objective is to calm the
                      mind, to bring about a state of tranquility which is conducive for
                      contemplation.>

                      I fully agree with you in this regard. But I think this is not the
                      main subject of the sutta that we discuss.

                      > Furthermore, the Buddha's disciples do not perform any "miracle
                      acts" without first seeking Buddha's permission. Just as in this
                      sutta, Dabba Mallaputta has been given "go ahead" by the Buddha.>

                      Here, you seem to agree that Dabba Mallaputta in the sutta is
                      performing "miracle acts", do you?

                      >Remember that Buddhism is not a religion which depends on miracles
                      to work. It is a religion which depends on wisdom. When you
                      understanding cause and effect, nothing is miraculous or wired
                      anymore.>

                      I have no objection at all.
                      Nevertheless, the Buddha in the early Buddhist texts also
                      teaches "iddhipaadaa". Do you agree?

                      Regards,

                      Thomas Law
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