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Re: SV: [Pali] Re: Upekkhaa

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Ole and Dmytro, may I butt in? Qua meaning I do not see a problem with these two texts. In the fourth jhana, where all the coarse jhanafactors have been
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 2, 2005
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      Dear Ole and Dmytro,
      may I butt in?
      Qua meaning I do not see a problem with these two texts. In the fourth
      jhana, where all the coarse jhanafactors have been abandoned, there is great
      purity of all conascent mental factors, the indifferent feeling, sati,
      tatramajjhattataa, cetanaa, manasikara, samaadhi, paññaa, etc. They
      condition each other by way of sahajata paccaya and aññamañña paccaya.
      Nina.
      op 01-12-2005 16:24 schreef Ole Holten Pind op oleholtenpind@...:

      > Dear Dmytro,
      >
      >> adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
      >> upasampajja viharati.
      >>
      >
      > The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators
      > understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by upekkhaa. Now
      > suttanipaata 1107 reads upekhaasatisa.msuddha.m which the Niddesa
      > understands to mean purity of upekkhaa and sati (upekkhaa ca sati ca suddhaa
      > honti). The two terms are evidently related It seems to me that this old
      > understanding of the term - possibly older than the interpretation found in
      > the Vibha.nga - should betaken into consideration, when discussing the
      > nature of the mental state this term describes, it is, as we know, used in
      > the context of the forth jhaana.
    • Ole Holten Pind
      Dear Nina, It seems to me that there is a marked difference between the view that satipaarisuddhi is generated by upekkhaa and the view that both upekkhaa and
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 2, 2005
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        Dear Nina,

        It seems to me that there is a marked difference between the view that
        satipaarisuddhi is generated by upekkhaa and the view that both upekkhaa and
        sati are pure in the fourth jhaana.

        Regards,
        Ole


        Dear Ole and Dmytro,
        may I butt in?
        Qua meaning I do not see a problem with these two texts. In the fourth
        jhana, where all the coarse jhanafactors have been abandoned, there is great
        purity of all conascent mental factors, the indifferent feeling, sati,
        tatramajjhattataa, cetanaa, manasikara, samaadhi, paññaa, etc. They
        condition each other by way of sahajata paccaya and aññamañña paccaya.
        Nina.




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      • Ray Mondor
        Dear Ole, Is it true that, instead of using the compound word upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim , the suttanipaata author could have specified directly either of the
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 2, 2005
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          Dear Ole,
          Is it true that, instead of using the compound word "upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim", the suttanipaata author could have specified directly either of the two possibilities you mention by choosing a more explicit sentence structure? If so, would it be fair to guess that in using the compound word structure the author actually intended the ambiguity of meaning?
          Metta,
          Ray
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Ole Holten Pind
          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:24 AM
          Subject: SV: [Pali] Re: Upekkhaa



          Dear Dmytro,

          > adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
          > upasampajja viharati.
          >

          The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators
          understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by upekkhaa. Now
          suttanipaata 1107 reads upekhaasatisa.msuddha.m which the Niddesa
          understands to mean purity of upekkhaa and sati (upekkhaa ca sati ca suddhaa
          honti). The two terms are evidently related It seems to me that this old
          understanding of the term - possibly older than the interpretation found in
          the Vibha.nga - should betaken into consideration, when discussing the
          nature of the mental state this term describes, it is, as we know, used in
          the context of the forth jhaana.

          Best regards,

          Ole Pind







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        • Leo
          Hi I see that your name is Ukrainian and I wish to know if you live in Ukraine or somewhere else. Wish to talk about Dhamma with you. With Metta Leo
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 3, 2005
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            Hi

            I see that your name is Ukrainian and I wish to know if you live in
            Ukraine or somewhere else. Wish to talk about Dhamma with you.

            With Metta
            Leo
          • Dmytro A. Ivakhnenko
            Hi Leo, ... Yes, I live in a capital of a wonderful country called Ukraine. Tha language here is very much like Pali :) With Metta, Dmytro
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 4, 2005
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              Hi Leo,

              > I see that your name is Ukrainian and I wish to know if you live in
              > Ukraine or somewhere else. Wish to talk about Dhamma with you.

              Yes, I live in a capital of a wonderful country called Ukraine.
              Tha language here is very much like Pali :)

              With Metta,
              Dmytro http://dhamma.ru/sadhu/
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Ole, ... N: Going back to the Vis text: I do not read the notion of
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 4, 2005
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                Dear Ole,
                op 02-12-2005 21:35 schreef Ole Holten Pind op oleholtenpind@...:

                > It seems to me that there is a marked difference between the view that
                > satipaarisuddhi is generated by upekkhaa and the view that both upekkhaa and
                > sati are pure in the fourth jhaana.
                ------
                N: Going back to the Vis text: < The fourth jhana...which...'has mindfulness
                purified by equanimity'.>
                I do not read the notion of <generated by> upekkhaa. They arise at the same
                time, there is no previous generation by upekkhaa.
                The Vibhanga text in English has caused by, but I do not have the Pali. But
                also this word may not be a problem if we think of conascence. Citta and
                cetasikas are arising together and experience the same object.

                Detachment and many other sobhana cetasikas had become strong because of the
                yogavacara's development of calm. Then it was the right time for the arising
                of the jhaanacitta of the fourth stage, where upekkhaa, sati and also the
                other accompanying cetasikas have reached a high degree of purity. It all
                falls into place at that one moment of jhaanacitta.
                So I do not think there is a difference of view between the Vibhanga, the
                Visuddhimagga and the Sutta nipata.
                Nina.
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