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SV: [Pali] Re: Upekkhaa

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  • Ole Holten Pind
    Dear Dmytro, ... The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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      Dear Dmytro,

      > adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
      > upasampajja viharati.
      >

      The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators
      understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by upekkhaa. Now
      suttanipaata 1107 reads upekhaasatisa.msuddha.m which the Niddesa
      understands to mean purity of upekkhaa and sati (upekkhaa ca sati ca suddhaa
      honti). The two terms are evidently related It seems to me that this old
      understanding of the term - possibly older than the interpretation found in
      the Vibha.nga - should betaken into consideration, when discussing the
      nature of the mental state this term describes, it is, as we know, used in
      the context of the forth jhaana.

      Best regards,

      Ole Pind
    • Hugo
      Hey Nina!, long time no see. ... MN 44: Cula-vedalla Sutta The Shorter Set of Questions-and-Answers
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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        Hey Nina!, long time no see.

        Just complementing your comment to Karen:

        > K: Is neutral feeling really exists or it is neutral when
        > > there is some form of ignorance (the underlying tendency of
        > > adukkhamasukhaa is ignorance)? Is the fourth jhaana has a neutral
        > > vedanaa as its characteristic?
        > ------
        > N: There is feeling accompanying each citta. Also when it seems that there
        > is no feeling, such as when seeing arises, there is indifferent feeling. We
        > notice pleasant and unpleasant feeling, but we are ignorant of indifferent
        > feeling. It is difficult to know its characteristic.
        > Indifferent feeling can be kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya.
        > The citta rooted in ignorance is always accompanied by indifferent feeling.
        > When there is not happy feeling nor unhappy feeling we should not think that
        > the citta is kusala. It may be akusala citta rooted in ignorance.
        > When indifferent feeling accompanies jhanacitta of the fourth stage it is
        > kusala and very pure.

        MN 44: Cula-vedalla Sutta
        The Shorter Set of Questions-and-Answers

        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-044-tb0.html
        "Neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is pleasant in occurring
        together with knowledge, and painful in occurring without knowledge."

        [...]

        "What obsession gets obsessed with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"

        [...]

        "Ignorance-obsession gets obsessed with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling."

        [...]

        "There is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure &
        pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress —
        enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity &
        mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. With that he abandons
        ignorance. No ignorance-obsession gets obsessed there."


        Greetings,
        --
        Hugo
      • keren_arbel
        Dear Nina & Dmytro, Thanks for sharing your understanding in this matter, I think that I understand this term now much better. With Metta, Keren
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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          Dear Nina & Dmytro,

          Thanks for sharing your understanding in this matter, I think that I
          understand this term now much better.

          With Metta,
          Keren
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Ole and Dmytro, may I butt in? Qua meaning I do not see a problem with these two texts. In the fourth jhana, where all the coarse jhanafactors have been
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 2, 2005
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            Dear Ole and Dmytro,
            may I butt in?
            Qua meaning I do not see a problem with these two texts. In the fourth
            jhana, where all the coarse jhanafactors have been abandoned, there is great
            purity of all conascent mental factors, the indifferent feeling, sati,
            tatramajjhattataa, cetanaa, manasikara, samaadhi, paññaa, etc. They
            condition each other by way of sahajata paccaya and aññamañña paccaya.
            Nina.
            op 01-12-2005 16:24 schreef Ole Holten Pind op oleholtenpind@...:

            > Dear Dmytro,
            >
            >> adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
            >> upasampajja viharati.
            >>
            >
            > The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators
            > understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by upekkhaa. Now
            > suttanipaata 1107 reads upekhaasatisa.msuddha.m which the Niddesa
            > understands to mean purity of upekkhaa and sati (upekkhaa ca sati ca suddhaa
            > honti). The two terms are evidently related It seems to me that this old
            > understanding of the term - possibly older than the interpretation found in
            > the Vibha.nga - should betaken into consideration, when discussing the
            > nature of the mental state this term describes, it is, as we know, used in
            > the context of the forth jhaana.
          • Ole Holten Pind
            Dear Nina, It seems to me that there is a marked difference between the view that satipaarisuddhi is generated by upekkhaa and the view that both upekkhaa and
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 2, 2005
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              Dear Nina,

              It seems to me that there is a marked difference between the view that
              satipaarisuddhi is generated by upekkhaa and the view that both upekkhaa and
              sati are pure in the fourth jhaana.

              Regards,
              Ole


              Dear Ole and Dmytro,
              may I butt in?
              Qua meaning I do not see a problem with these two texts. In the fourth
              jhana, where all the coarse jhanafactors have been abandoned, there is great
              purity of all conascent mental factors, the indifferent feeling, sati,
              tatramajjhattataa, cetanaa, manasikara, samaadhi, paññaa, etc. They
              condition each other by way of sahajata paccaya and aññamañña paccaya.
              Nina.




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            • Ray Mondor
              Dear Ole, Is it true that, instead of using the compound word upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim , the suttanipaata author could have specified directly either of the
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 2, 2005
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                Dear Ole,
                Is it true that, instead of using the compound word "upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim", the suttanipaata author could have specified directly either of the two possibilities you mention by choosing a more explicit sentence structure? If so, would it be fair to guess that in using the compound word structure the author actually intended the ambiguity of meaning?
                Metta,
                Ray
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Ole Holten Pind
                To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:24 AM
                Subject: SV: [Pali] Re: Upekkhaa



                Dear Dmytro,

                > adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
                > upasampajja viharati.
                >

                The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators
                understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by upekkhaa. Now
                suttanipaata 1107 reads upekhaasatisa.msuddha.m which the Niddesa
                understands to mean purity of upekkhaa and sati (upekkhaa ca sati ca suddhaa
                honti). The two terms are evidently related It seems to me that this old
                understanding of the term - possibly older than the interpretation found in
                the Vibha.nga - should betaken into consideration, when discussing the
                nature of the mental state this term describes, it is, as we know, used in
                the context of the forth jhaana.

                Best regards,

                Ole Pind







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              • Leo
                Hi I see that your name is Ukrainian and I wish to know if you live in Ukraine or somewhere else. Wish to talk about Dhamma with you. With Metta Leo
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 3, 2005
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                  Hi

                  I see that your name is Ukrainian and I wish to know if you live in
                  Ukraine or somewhere else. Wish to talk about Dhamma with you.

                  With Metta
                  Leo
                • Dmytro A. Ivakhnenko
                  Hi Leo, ... Yes, I live in a capital of a wonderful country called Ukraine. Tha language here is very much like Pali :) With Metta, Dmytro
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 4, 2005
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                    Hi Leo,

                    > I see that your name is Ukrainian and I wish to know if you live in
                    > Ukraine or somewhere else. Wish to talk about Dhamma with you.

                    Yes, I live in a capital of a wonderful country called Ukraine.
                    Tha language here is very much like Pali :)

                    With Metta,
                    Dmytro http://dhamma.ru/sadhu/
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Ole, ... N: Going back to the Vis text: I do not read the notion of
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 4, 2005
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                      Dear Ole,
                      op 02-12-2005 21:35 schreef Ole Holten Pind op oleholtenpind@...:

                      > It seems to me that there is a marked difference between the view that
                      > satipaarisuddhi is generated by upekkhaa and the view that both upekkhaa and
                      > sati are pure in the fourth jhaana.
                      ------
                      N: Going back to the Vis text: < The fourth jhana...which...'has mindfulness
                      purified by equanimity'.>
                      I do not read the notion of <generated by> upekkhaa. They arise at the same
                      time, there is no previous generation by upekkhaa.
                      The Vibhanga text in English has caused by, but I do not have the Pali. But
                      also this word may not be a problem if we think of conascence. Citta and
                      cetasikas are arising together and experience the same object.

                      Detachment and many other sobhana cetasikas had become strong because of the
                      yogavacara's development of calm. Then it was the right time for the arising
                      of the jhaanacitta of the fourth stage, where upekkhaa, sati and also the
                      other accompanying cetasikas have reached a high degree of purity. It all
                      falls into place at that one moment of jhaanacitta.
                      So I do not think there is a difference of view between the Vibhanga, the
                      Visuddhimagga and the Sutta nipata.
                      Nina.
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