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help with suttanipaata commentary

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  • rett
    Dear Group, I m curious what (if anything) the Suttanipaa.ta commentary (Pj. Paramatthajotikaa) has to say about verse 693, specifically the word:
    Message 1 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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      Dear Group,

      I'm curious what (if anything) the Suttanipaa.ta commentary (Pj. Paramatthajotikaa) has to say about verse 693, specifically the word: bahujanahitaanukampii. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of Pj.

      Does anyone have the commentary handy and can send in whatever the commentary has to say about that word? It's probably one or two lines at the most. Thanks for any help.

      best regards,

      /Rett
    • Dmytro A. Ivakhnenko
      Dear Rett, ... There s nothing about it. Best Regards, Dmytro Suttanipata 697. Disvaana sakye isimavoca akalye, “naaha.m kumaare ahitamanussaraami; na
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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        Dear Rett,

        > I'm curious what (if anything) the Suttanipaa.ta commentary (Pj. Paramatthajotikaa) has to say about verse 693, specifically the word: bahujanahitaanukampii. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of Pj.

        There's nothing about it.

        Best Regards,
        Dmytro

        Suttanipata

        697. Disvaana sakye isimavoca akalye, “naaha.m kumaare ahitamanussaraami;
        na caapimassa bhavissati antaraayo, na orakaaya.m
        adhimaanasaa bhavaatha.
        698. “Sambodhiyagga.m phusissataaya.m kumaaro, so dhammacakka.m
        paramavisuddhadassii;
        vattessataaya.m bahujanahitaanukampii, vitthaarikassa
        bhavissati brahmacariya.m.
        699. “Mama~nca aayu na ciramidhaavaseso, athantaraa me bhavissati
        kaalakiriyaa;
        soha.m na sossa.m ‚02 asamadhurassa dhamma.m, tenamhi a.t.to
        byasana.mgato aghaavii”.

        Atthakatha

        697. Ekaadasaaya.m athattano gamananti pa.tisandhivasena
        aruupagamana.m. Akalyaruupo ga.layati assukaaniiti ta.m attano
        aruupuupapatti.m anussaritvaa “na daanaaha.m assa dhammadesana.m
        sotu.m lacchaamii”ti atu.t.tharuupo balavasokaabhibhavena
        domanassajaato hutvaa assuuni paateti ga.layati.
        “Garayatii”tipi paa.tho. Yadi panesa ruupabhave citta.m nameyya, ki.m
        tattha na uppajjeyya, yeneva.m rodatiiti? Na na uppajjeyya,
        akusalataaya paneta.m vidhi.m na jaanaati. Eva.m santepi
        domanassuppattiyevassa ayuttaa samaapattilaabhena vikkhambhitattaati
        ce? Na, vikkhambhitattaa eva. Maggabhaavanaaya samucchinnaa hi
        kilesaa na uppajjanti, samaapattilaabhiina.m pana balavapaccayena
        uppajjanti.
        Uppanne kilese parihiinajjhaanattaa kutassa aruupagamananti ce?
        Appakasirena punaadhigamato.
        Samaapattilaabhino hi uppanne kilese balavaviitikkama.m
        anaapajjantaa vuupasantamatteyeva kilesavege puna ta.m visesa.m
        appakasirenevaadhigacchanti, “parihiinavisesaa ime”tipi duvi~n~neyyaa
        honti, taadiso ca eso. No ce kumaare bhavissati antaraayoti na
        bhavissati nu kho imasmi.m kumaare antaraayo.

        698. Dvaadasaaya.m na orakaayanti aya.m orako paritto na hoti.
        Uttaragaathaaya vattabba.m buddhaирaaмф.m ыфтврaaнaaрфю

        699. Terasaaya.m sambodhiyagganti sabba~n~nuta~n~naa.na.m.
        Ta~nhi avipariitabhaavena sammaa bujjhanato sambodhi, katthaci
        aavara.naabhaavena sabba~naa.nuttamato “aggan”ti vuccati.
        Phusissatiiti paapu.nissati. Paramavisuddhadassiiti
        nibbaanadassii. Ta~nhi ekantavisuddhattaa paramavisuddha.m.
        Vitthaarikassaati vitthaarika.m assa. Brahmacariyanti saasana.m.
      • Ole Holten Pind
        Dear Dmytro, ... The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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          Dear Dmytro,

          > adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
          > upasampajja viharati.
          >

          The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators
          understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by upekkhaa. Now
          suttanipaata 1107 reads upekhaasatisa.msuddha.m which the Niddesa
          understands to mean purity of upekkhaa and sati (upekkhaa ca sati ca suddhaa
          honti). The two terms are evidently related It seems to me that this old
          understanding of the term - possibly older than the interpretation found in
          the Vibha.nga - should betaken into consideration, when discussing the
          nature of the mental state this term describes, it is, as we know, used in
          the context of the forth jhaana.

          Best regards,

          Ole Pind
        • Nina van Gorkom
          Dear Keren, ... N: Here the yogavacara has abandoned the jhanafactor which is sukha, happy feeling. Thus he has indifferent feeling. ... K: Is neutral feeling
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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            Dear Keren,
            op 30-11-2005 18:14 schreef keren_arbel op keren_arbel@...:

            > Another question I have about upekkhaa is about the description of
            > the fourth jhaana:
            >
            > adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
            > upasampajja viharati.
            >
            > In this sentence there are both adukkhamasukhaa which is vedanaa and
            > upekkhaa. What exactly is this feeling of neither-painful-nor-
            > pleasant?
            ------
            N: Here the yogavacara has abandoned the jhanafactor which is sukha, happy
            feeling. Thus he has indifferent feeling.
            -------
            K: Is neutral feeling really exists or it is neutral when
            > there is some form of ignorance (the underlying tendency of
            > adukkhamasukhaa is ignorance)? Is the fourth jhaana has a neutral
            > vedanaa as its characteristic?
            ------
            N: There is feeling accompanying each citta. Also when it seems that there
            is no feeling, such as when seeing arises, there is indifferent feeling. We
            notice pleasant and unpleasant feeling, but we are ignorant of indifferent
            feeling. It is difficult to know its characteristic.
            Indifferent feeling can be kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya.
            The citta rooted in ignorance is always accompanied by indifferent feeling.
            When there is not happy feeling nor unhappy feeling we should not think that
            the citta is kusala. It may be akusala citta rooted in ignorance.
            When indifferent feeling accompanies jhanacitta of the fourth stage it is
            kusala and very pure.
            --------
            K: Also I am not sure if upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim should be translate
            > as "purification of mindfulness due to equanimity", or "purification
            > of mindfulness and equanimity", or maybe purification through
            > mindfulness and equanimity".
            ------
            N: We read in Visuddhimagga Ch IV, 166: <The fourth jhana...which...'has
            mindfulness purified by equanimity'.
            It conditions calm and purification of all that is opposed to calm.
            -------
            I should add that upekkha can stand for paññaa and also for viriya. Energy
            that is neither over strenuous nor lax in mental development.
            The Visuddhimagga Ch IV, 156 and following explains ten kinds of equanimity.
            *****
            I would like to add something about the brahma vihara upekkha. This is not
            only a meditation subject of samatha, but it should be developed in daily
            life.
            I quote what I wrote before:
            <The Brahmavihåra of equanimity can be applied in our socal life.
            We may try to help others with loving kindness and compassion, but sometimes
            people are beyond help. When we meet someone who has lost his or her spouse
            we cannot help this person by having sorrow. When we consider that kamma
            brings its appropriate result, there can be conditions for equanimity
            instead of sorrow. We may then be able to speak the right words with true
            compassion and kindness. The Brahmavihåra of equanimity can also prevent us
            from worry and anxiety about the health of someone who is close to us.
            Nobody can prevent kamma from producing its result when it is the right
            time.
            The Brahmavihåra of equanimity can also prevent us from being overly
            involved in other people¹s lives and problems. The Buddha said that the
            monks should not spend too much time in the village with other people. He
            did not want them to be overly involved in others lest there be many akusala
            cittas.
            The laylife is different from the monk¹s life but we can apply the Vinaya in
            our own situation. If we are overly involved in other people¹s affairs there
            are bound to be many akusala cittas: we may have attachment to them or we
            may cling to our own efforts of helping them. We may be disappointed when we
            cannot help them or when they do not react as we expected. We may have
            aversion because of other people¹s contrarious behaviour or unwholesome
            deeds. When we remember that akusala cittas both of ourselves and others
            arise because defilements have been accumulated during endless lives, it
            will condition equanimity.>

            Actually we need the Brahmavihåra of equanimity when we develop metta and
            compassion in daily life.
            Nina.
          • Hugo
            Hey Nina!, long time no see. ... MN 44: Cula-vedalla Sutta The Shorter Set of Questions-and-Answers
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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              Hey Nina!, long time no see.

              Just complementing your comment to Karen:

              > K: Is neutral feeling really exists or it is neutral when
              > > there is some form of ignorance (the underlying tendency of
              > > adukkhamasukhaa is ignorance)? Is the fourth jhaana has a neutral
              > > vedanaa as its characteristic?
              > ------
              > N: There is feeling accompanying each citta. Also when it seems that there
              > is no feeling, such as when seeing arises, there is indifferent feeling. We
              > notice pleasant and unpleasant feeling, but we are ignorant of indifferent
              > feeling. It is difficult to know its characteristic.
              > Indifferent feeling can be kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya.
              > The citta rooted in ignorance is always accompanied by indifferent feeling.
              > When there is not happy feeling nor unhappy feeling we should not think that
              > the citta is kusala. It may be akusala citta rooted in ignorance.
              > When indifferent feeling accompanies jhanacitta of the fourth stage it is
              > kusala and very pure.

              MN 44: Cula-vedalla Sutta
              The Shorter Set of Questions-and-Answers

              http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-044-tb0.html
              "Neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is pleasant in occurring
              together with knowledge, and painful in occurring without knowledge."

              [...]

              "What obsession gets obsessed with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"

              [...]

              "Ignorance-obsession gets obsessed with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling."

              [...]

              "There is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure &
              pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress —
              enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity &
              mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. With that he abandons
              ignorance. No ignorance-obsession gets obsessed there."


              Greetings,
              --
              Hugo
            • keren_arbel
              Dear Nina & Dmytro, Thanks for sharing your understanding in this matter, I think that I understand this term now much better. With Metta, Keren
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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                Dear Nina & Dmytro,

                Thanks for sharing your understanding in this matter, I think that I
                understand this term now much better.

                With Metta,
                Keren
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Dear Ole and Dmytro, may I butt in? Qua meaning I do not see a problem with these two texts. In the fourth jhana, where all the coarse jhanafactors have been
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 2, 2005
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                  Dear Ole and Dmytro,
                  may I butt in?
                  Qua meaning I do not see a problem with these two texts. In the fourth
                  jhana, where all the coarse jhanafactors have been abandoned, there is great
                  purity of all conascent mental factors, the indifferent feeling, sati,
                  tatramajjhattataa, cetanaa, manasikara, samaadhi, paññaa, etc. They
                  condition each other by way of sahajata paccaya and aññamañña paccaya.
                  Nina.
                  op 01-12-2005 16:24 schreef Ole Holten Pind op oleholtenpind@...:

                  > Dear Dmytro,
                  >
                  >> adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
                  >> upasampajja viharati.
                  >>
                  >
                  > The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators
                  > understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by upekkhaa. Now
                  > suttanipaata 1107 reads upekhaasatisa.msuddha.m which the Niddesa
                  > understands to mean purity of upekkhaa and sati (upekkhaa ca sati ca suddhaa
                  > honti). The two terms are evidently related It seems to me that this old
                  > understanding of the term - possibly older than the interpretation found in
                  > the Vibha.nga - should betaken into consideration, when discussing the
                  > nature of the mental state this term describes, it is, as we know, used in
                  > the context of the forth jhaana.
                • Ole Holten Pind
                  Dear Nina, It seems to me that there is a marked difference between the view that satipaarisuddhi is generated by upekkhaa and the view that both upekkhaa and
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 2, 2005
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                    Dear Nina,

                    It seems to me that there is a marked difference between the view that
                    satipaarisuddhi is generated by upekkhaa and the view that both upekkhaa and
                    sati are pure in the fourth jhaana.

                    Regards,
                    Ole


                    Dear Ole and Dmytro,
                    may I butt in?
                    Qua meaning I do not see a problem with these two texts. In the fourth
                    jhana, where all the coarse jhanafactors have been abandoned, there is great
                    purity of all conascent mental factors, the indifferent feeling, sati,
                    tatramajjhattataa, cetanaa, manasikara, samaadhi, paññaa, etc. They
                    condition each other by way of sahajata paccaya and aññamañña paccaya.
                    Nina.




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                  • Ray Mondor
                    Dear Ole, Is it true that, instead of using the compound word upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim , the suttanipaata author could have specified directly either of the
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 2, 2005
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                      Dear Ole,
                      Is it true that, instead of using the compound word "upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim", the suttanipaata author could have specified directly either of the two possibilities you mention by choosing a more explicit sentence structure? If so, would it be fair to guess that in using the compound word structure the author actually intended the ambiguity of meaning?
                      Metta,
                      Ray
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Ole Holten Pind
                      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:24 AM
                      Subject: SV: [Pali] Re: Upekkhaa



                      Dear Dmytro,

                      > adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
                      > upasampajja viharati.
                      >

                      The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators
                      understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by upekkhaa. Now
                      suttanipaata 1107 reads upekhaasatisa.msuddha.m which the Niddesa
                      understands to mean purity of upekkhaa and sati (upekkhaa ca sati ca suddhaa
                      honti). The two terms are evidently related It seems to me that this old
                      understanding of the term - possibly older than the interpretation found in
                      the Vibha.nga - should betaken into consideration, when discussing the
                      nature of the mental state this term describes, it is, as we know, used in
                      the context of the forth jhaana.

                      Best regards,

                      Ole Pind







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                    • Leo
                      Hi I see that your name is Ukrainian and I wish to know if you live in Ukraine or somewhere else. Wish to talk about Dhamma with you. With Metta Leo
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 3, 2005
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                        Hi

                        I see that your name is Ukrainian and I wish to know if you live in
                        Ukraine or somewhere else. Wish to talk about Dhamma with you.

                        With Metta
                        Leo
                      • Dmytro A. Ivakhnenko
                        Hi Leo, ... Yes, I live in a capital of a wonderful country called Ukraine. Tha language here is very much like Pali :) With Metta, Dmytro
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 4, 2005
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                          Hi Leo,

                          > I see that your name is Ukrainian and I wish to know if you live in
                          > Ukraine or somewhere else. Wish to talk about Dhamma with you.

                          Yes, I live in a capital of a wonderful country called Ukraine.
                          Tha language here is very much like Pali :)

                          With Metta,
                          Dmytro http://dhamma.ru/sadhu/
                        • Nina van Gorkom
                          Dear Ole, ... N: Going back to the Vis text: I do not read the notion of
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 4, 2005
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                            Dear Ole,
                            op 02-12-2005 21:35 schreef Ole Holten Pind op oleholtenpind@...:

                            > It seems to me that there is a marked difference between the view that
                            > satipaarisuddhi is generated by upekkhaa and the view that both upekkhaa and
                            > sati are pure in the fourth jhaana.
                            ------
                            N: Going back to the Vis text: < The fourth jhana...which...'has mindfulness
                            purified by equanimity'.>
                            I do not read the notion of <generated by> upekkhaa. They arise at the same
                            time, there is no previous generation by upekkhaa.
                            The Vibhanga text in English has caused by, but I do not have the Pali. But
                            also this word may not be a problem if we think of conascence. Citta and
                            cetasikas are arising together and experience the same object.

                            Detachment and many other sobhana cetasikas had become strong because of the
                            yogavacara's development of calm. Then it was the right time for the arising
                            of the jhaanacitta of the fourth stage, where upekkhaa, sati and also the
                            other accompanying cetasikas have reached a high degree of purity. It all
                            falls into place at that one moment of jhaanacitta.
                            So I do not think there is a difference of view between the Vibhanga, the
                            Visuddhimagga and the Sutta nipata.
                            Nina.
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