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Re: [Pali] Upekkhaa

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  • Ray Mondor
    Thanks again, Dmytro. I appreciate the explanation and it is an interesting connection. I ll have to try using the Brahmaviharas as concentration subjects as
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 30, 2005
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      Thanks again, Dmytro. I appreciate the explanation and it is an interesting connection. I'll have to try using the Brahmaviharas as concentration subjects as suggested in the Sankhitta Sutta. It seems like a good way to overcome the hindrances, combining the methods of overcoming by concentration and overcoming by opposites.
      Metta,
      Ray
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Dmytro A. Ivakhnenko
      To: Ray Mondor
      Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 4:34 AM
      Subject: Re: [Pali] Upekkhaa


      Ray,

      > "the sequence of four brahma viharas is consonant to the sequence of
      > four jhanas. It's not too surprising since in some suttas a certain
      > stage of practice is described interchangeably as either four jhanas or
      > four brahma viharas."
      >
      > This seems to say that
      > metta corresponds to vitakka/vicara, piti, sukha, and samadhi,
      > karuna corresponds to piti, sukha, and samadhi,
      > mudita corresponds to sukha and samadhi, and
      > upekkha corresponds to samadhi.

      No. Brahma viharas can serve as a basis for developing consecutive jhanas.

      See, for example, Sankhitta sutta
      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-063.html

      According to Vimuttimagga and Vimittimagga, three frist of brahmaviharas
      can lead to three first jhanas, and upekkhaa can lead to fourth one.
      So upekkhaa corresponds to upekkhaa of fourth jhana.

      > I don't understand this. Can you explain the meaning and/or specify one
      > or more of the suttas that discuss this idea?

      What I mean is that in the description of Buddhist path Brahma-viharas
      occupy about the same place as four jhanas.

      See, for example, Udumbarika sutta (DN 20) where Brahma-viharas are
      placed exactly where jhanas usually belong, between overcoming
      hindrances and 'abhinna'.

      Both jhanas and brahma viharas are placed between overcoming hindrances
      and formless jhanas.

      "Brethren, who is the brother that has reached deva consciousness ?
      Herein a brother, aloof from sensual delights (and so forth), having
      attained to the First Rapture, or the Second or the Third or the Fourth
      Rapture abides therein.

      "Verily, brethren, this is the brother who has attained to deva
      consciousness.

      "Brethren, who is the brother that has attained to Brahmaconsciousness?
      Herein, a brother dwells diffusing one quarter with thoughts of loving
      kindness, compassion, sympathy and equanimity; likewise the second
      quarter, likewise the third quarter, likewise the fourth quarter. So
      above, below, around, everywhere, and in all respects thus diffusing the
      whole world, and with a heart full of loving-kindness (and so forth),
      developed, grown great, measureless, benevolent and kindly, so he dwells.

      "Verily, brethren, this is the brother that has reached Brahma
      consciousness.

      "Brethren, who is the brother that has reached the Imperturbable ?
      Brethren, herein a brother, having gone utterly beyond all perception of
      form and without thinking, about* the perception of opposition' and
      unmindful of the idea of diversity, attains to and abides in the sphere
      of unbounded space.* Having in all respects gone beyond the sphere of
      unbounded space he attains to and abides in the sphere of infinity of
      consciousness. Having in all respects gone beyond the sphere of infinity
      of consciousness, he attains to and abides in the sphere of nothingness.
      Having in all respects gone beyond the sphere of nothingness he attains
      to and abides in the sphere of neither-pereeption-nor-non-perception.

      "Verily, brethren, this brother has attained to the Imperturbable.

      "Brethren, who is the brother that has attained to the Noble State ?*
      Brethren, herein a brother knows as they really are This is Ill this is
      Ill's cause ; this is Ill's cessation ; and this is the Path leading to
      Ill's cessation.

      Verily, brethren, this brother has attained to the Noble State."

      http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/019-brahmanavaggo-e2.htm
      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html

      Metta,
      Dmytro



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    • Dmytro A. Ivakhnenko
      Dear Keren, ... Well, it is not an indifference of ignorance. It s a kind of peaceful equipoise. Seeing with wisdom the ups and downs of mind, feelings of
      Message 2 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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        Dear Keren,

        > adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
        > upasampajja viharati.
        >
        > In this sentence there are both adukkhamasukhaa which is vedanaa and
        > upekkhaa. What exactly is this feeling of neither-painful-nor-
        > pleasant?

        Well, it is not an indifference of ignorance.
        It's a kind of peaceful equipoise. Seeing with wisdom the ups and downs
        of mind, feelings of pleasure and pain, one lets them go, and turns to
        serene observation, as in:

        "He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this
        disagreeable thing... this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in
        me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is
        peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., 'upekkhaa'."

        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn152.html
        http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=22344

        Metta,
        Dmytro
      • rett
        Dear Group, I m curious what (if anything) the Suttanipaa.ta commentary (Pj. Paramatthajotikaa) has to say about verse 693, specifically the word:
        Message 3 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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          Dear Group,

          I'm curious what (if anything) the Suttanipaa.ta commentary (Pj. Paramatthajotikaa) has to say about verse 693, specifically the word: bahujanahitaanukampii. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of Pj.

          Does anyone have the commentary handy and can send in whatever the commentary has to say about that word? It's probably one or two lines at the most. Thanks for any help.

          best regards,

          /Rett
        • Dmytro A. Ivakhnenko
          Dear Rett, ... There s nothing about it. Best Regards, Dmytro Suttanipata 697. Disvaana sakye isimavoca akalye, “naaha.m kumaare ahitamanussaraami; na
          Message 4 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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            Dear Rett,

            > I'm curious what (if anything) the Suttanipaa.ta commentary (Pj. Paramatthajotikaa) has to say about verse 693, specifically the word: bahujanahitaanukampii. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of Pj.

            There's nothing about it.

            Best Regards,
            Dmytro

            Suttanipata

            697. Disvaana sakye isimavoca akalye, “naaha.m kumaare ahitamanussaraami;
            na caapimassa bhavissati antaraayo, na orakaaya.m
            adhimaanasaa bhavaatha.
            698. “Sambodhiyagga.m phusissataaya.m kumaaro, so dhammacakka.m
            paramavisuddhadassii;
            vattessataaya.m bahujanahitaanukampii, vitthaarikassa
            bhavissati brahmacariya.m.
            699. “Mama~nca aayu na ciramidhaavaseso, athantaraa me bhavissati
            kaalakiriyaa;
            soha.m na sossa.m ‚02 asamadhurassa dhamma.m, tenamhi a.t.to
            byasana.mgato aghaavii”.

            Atthakatha

            697. Ekaadasaaya.m athattano gamananti pa.tisandhivasena
            aruupagamana.m. Akalyaruupo ga.layati assukaaniiti ta.m attano
            aruupuupapatti.m anussaritvaa “na daanaaha.m assa dhammadesana.m
            sotu.m lacchaamii”ti atu.t.tharuupo balavasokaabhibhavena
            domanassajaato hutvaa assuuni paateti ga.layati.
            “Garayatii”tipi paa.tho. Yadi panesa ruupabhave citta.m nameyya, ki.m
            tattha na uppajjeyya, yeneva.m rodatiiti? Na na uppajjeyya,
            akusalataaya paneta.m vidhi.m na jaanaati. Eva.m santepi
            domanassuppattiyevassa ayuttaa samaapattilaabhena vikkhambhitattaati
            ce? Na, vikkhambhitattaa eva. Maggabhaavanaaya samucchinnaa hi
            kilesaa na uppajjanti, samaapattilaabhiina.m pana balavapaccayena
            uppajjanti.
            Uppanne kilese parihiinajjhaanattaa kutassa aruupagamananti ce?
            Appakasirena punaadhigamato.
            Samaapattilaabhino hi uppanne kilese balavaviitikkama.m
            anaapajjantaa vuupasantamatteyeva kilesavege puna ta.m visesa.m
            appakasirenevaadhigacchanti, “parihiinavisesaa ime”tipi duvi~n~neyyaa
            honti, taadiso ca eso. No ce kumaare bhavissati antaraayoti na
            bhavissati nu kho imasmi.m kumaare antaraayo.

            698. Dvaadasaaya.m na orakaayanti aya.m orako paritto na hoti.
            Uttaragaathaaya vattabba.m buddhaирaaмф.m ыфтврaaнaaрфю

            699. Terasaaya.m sambodhiyagganti sabba~n~nuta~n~naa.na.m.
            Ta~nhi avipariitabhaavena sammaa bujjhanato sambodhi, katthaci
            aavara.naabhaavena sabba~naa.nuttamato “aggan”ti vuccati.
            Phusissatiiti paapu.nissati. Paramavisuddhadassiiti
            nibbaanadassii. Ta~nhi ekantavisuddhattaa paramavisuddha.m.
            Vitthaarikassaati vitthaarika.m assa. Brahmacariyanti saasana.m.
          • Ole Holten Pind
            Dear Dmytro, ... The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by
            Message 5 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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              Dear Dmytro,

              > adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
              > upasampajja viharati.
              >

              The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators
              understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by upekkhaa. Now
              suttanipaata 1107 reads upekhaasatisa.msuddha.m which the Niddesa
              understands to mean purity of upekkhaa and sati (upekkhaa ca sati ca suddhaa
              honti). The two terms are evidently related It seems to me that this old
              understanding of the term - possibly older than the interpretation found in
              the Vibha.nga - should betaken into consideration, when discussing the
              nature of the mental state this term describes, it is, as we know, used in
              the context of the forth jhaana.

              Best regards,

              Ole Pind
            • Nina van Gorkom
              Dear Keren, ... N: Here the yogavacara has abandoned the jhanafactor which is sukha, happy feeling. Thus he has indifferent feeling. ... K: Is neutral feeling
              Message 6 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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                Dear Keren,
                op 30-11-2005 18:14 schreef keren_arbel op keren_arbel@...:

                > Another question I have about upekkhaa is about the description of
                > the fourth jhaana:
                >
                > adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
                > upasampajja viharati.
                >
                > In this sentence there are both adukkhamasukhaa which is vedanaa and
                > upekkhaa. What exactly is this feeling of neither-painful-nor-
                > pleasant?
                ------
                N: Here the yogavacara has abandoned the jhanafactor which is sukha, happy
                feeling. Thus he has indifferent feeling.
                -------
                K: Is neutral feeling really exists or it is neutral when
                > there is some form of ignorance (the underlying tendency of
                > adukkhamasukhaa is ignorance)? Is the fourth jhaana has a neutral
                > vedanaa as its characteristic?
                ------
                N: There is feeling accompanying each citta. Also when it seems that there
                is no feeling, such as when seeing arises, there is indifferent feeling. We
                notice pleasant and unpleasant feeling, but we are ignorant of indifferent
                feeling. It is difficult to know its characteristic.
                Indifferent feeling can be kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya.
                The citta rooted in ignorance is always accompanied by indifferent feeling.
                When there is not happy feeling nor unhappy feeling we should not think that
                the citta is kusala. It may be akusala citta rooted in ignorance.
                When indifferent feeling accompanies jhanacitta of the fourth stage it is
                kusala and very pure.
                --------
                K: Also I am not sure if upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim should be translate
                > as "purification of mindfulness due to equanimity", or "purification
                > of mindfulness and equanimity", or maybe purification through
                > mindfulness and equanimity".
                ------
                N: We read in Visuddhimagga Ch IV, 166: <The fourth jhana...which...'has
                mindfulness purified by equanimity'.
                It conditions calm and purification of all that is opposed to calm.
                -------
                I should add that upekkha can stand for paññaa and also for viriya. Energy
                that is neither over strenuous nor lax in mental development.
                The Visuddhimagga Ch IV, 156 and following explains ten kinds of equanimity.
                *****
                I would like to add something about the brahma vihara upekkha. This is not
                only a meditation subject of samatha, but it should be developed in daily
                life.
                I quote what I wrote before:
                <The Brahmavihåra of equanimity can be applied in our socal life.
                We may try to help others with loving kindness and compassion, but sometimes
                people are beyond help. When we meet someone who has lost his or her spouse
                we cannot help this person by having sorrow. When we consider that kamma
                brings its appropriate result, there can be conditions for equanimity
                instead of sorrow. We may then be able to speak the right words with true
                compassion and kindness. The Brahmavihåra of equanimity can also prevent us
                from worry and anxiety about the health of someone who is close to us.
                Nobody can prevent kamma from producing its result when it is the right
                time.
                The Brahmavihåra of equanimity can also prevent us from being overly
                involved in other people¹s lives and problems. The Buddha said that the
                monks should not spend too much time in the village with other people. He
                did not want them to be overly involved in others lest there be many akusala
                cittas.
                The laylife is different from the monk¹s life but we can apply the Vinaya in
                our own situation. If we are overly involved in other people¹s affairs there
                are bound to be many akusala cittas: we may have attachment to them or we
                may cling to our own efforts of helping them. We may be disappointed when we
                cannot help them or when they do not react as we expected. We may have
                aversion because of other people¹s contrarious behaviour or unwholesome
                deeds. When we remember that akusala cittas both of ourselves and others
                arise because defilements have been accumulated during endless lives, it
                will condition equanimity.>

                Actually we need the Brahmavihåra of equanimity when we develop metta and
                compassion in daily life.
                Nina.
              • Hugo
                Hey Nina!, long time no see. ... MN 44: Cula-vedalla Sutta The Shorter Set of Questions-and-Answers
                Message 7 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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                  Hey Nina!, long time no see.

                  Just complementing your comment to Karen:

                  > K: Is neutral feeling really exists or it is neutral when
                  > > there is some form of ignorance (the underlying tendency of
                  > > adukkhamasukhaa is ignorance)? Is the fourth jhaana has a neutral
                  > > vedanaa as its characteristic?
                  > ------
                  > N: There is feeling accompanying each citta. Also when it seems that there
                  > is no feeling, such as when seeing arises, there is indifferent feeling. We
                  > notice pleasant and unpleasant feeling, but we are ignorant of indifferent
                  > feeling. It is difficult to know its characteristic.
                  > Indifferent feeling can be kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya.
                  > The citta rooted in ignorance is always accompanied by indifferent feeling.
                  > When there is not happy feeling nor unhappy feeling we should not think that
                  > the citta is kusala. It may be akusala citta rooted in ignorance.
                  > When indifferent feeling accompanies jhanacitta of the fourth stage it is
                  > kusala and very pure.

                  MN 44: Cula-vedalla Sutta
                  The Shorter Set of Questions-and-Answers

                  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-044-tb0.html
                  "Neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is pleasant in occurring
                  together with knowledge, and painful in occurring without knowledge."

                  [...]

                  "What obsession gets obsessed with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"

                  [...]

                  "Ignorance-obsession gets obsessed with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling."

                  [...]

                  "There is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure &
                  pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress —
                  enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity &
                  mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. With that he abandons
                  ignorance. No ignorance-obsession gets obsessed there."


                  Greetings,
                  --
                  Hugo
                • keren_arbel
                  Dear Nina & Dmytro, Thanks for sharing your understanding in this matter, I think that I understand this term now much better. With Metta, Keren
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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                    Dear Nina & Dmytro,

                    Thanks for sharing your understanding in this matter, I think that I
                    understand this term now much better.

                    With Metta,
                    Keren
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Ole and Dmytro, may I butt in? Qua meaning I do not see a problem with these two texts. In the fourth jhana, where all the coarse jhanafactors have been
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 2, 2005
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                      Dear Ole and Dmytro,
                      may I butt in?
                      Qua meaning I do not see a problem with these two texts. In the fourth
                      jhana, where all the coarse jhanafactors have been abandoned, there is great
                      purity of all conascent mental factors, the indifferent feeling, sati,
                      tatramajjhattataa, cetanaa, manasikara, samaadhi, paññaa, etc. They
                      condition each other by way of sahajata paccaya and aññamañña paccaya.
                      Nina.
                      op 01-12-2005 16:24 schreef Ole Holten Pind op oleholtenpind@...:

                      > Dear Dmytro,
                      >
                      >> adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
                      >> upasampajja viharati.
                      >>
                      >
                      > The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators
                      > understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by upekkhaa. Now
                      > suttanipaata 1107 reads upekhaasatisa.msuddha.m which the Niddesa
                      > understands to mean purity of upekkhaa and sati (upekkhaa ca sati ca suddhaa
                      > honti). The two terms are evidently related It seems to me that this old
                      > understanding of the term - possibly older than the interpretation found in
                      > the Vibha.nga - should betaken into consideration, when discussing the
                      > nature of the mental state this term describes, it is, as we know, used in
                      > the context of the forth jhaana.
                    • Ole Holten Pind
                      Dear Nina, It seems to me that there is a marked difference between the view that satipaarisuddhi is generated by upekkhaa and the view that both upekkhaa and
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 2, 2005
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                        Dear Nina,

                        It seems to me that there is a marked difference between the view that
                        satipaarisuddhi is generated by upekkhaa and the view that both upekkhaa and
                        sati are pure in the fourth jhaana.

                        Regards,
                        Ole


                        Dear Ole and Dmytro,
                        may I butt in?
                        Qua meaning I do not see a problem with these two texts. In the fourth
                        jhana, where all the coarse jhanafactors have been abandoned, there is great
                        purity of all conascent mental factors, the indifferent feeling, sati,
                        tatramajjhattataa, cetanaa, manasikara, samaadhi, paññaa, etc. They
                        condition each other by way of sahajata paccaya and aññamañña paccaya.
                        Nina.




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                      • Ray Mondor
                        Dear Ole, Is it true that, instead of using the compound word upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim , the suttanipaata author could have specified directly either of the
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 2, 2005
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                          Dear Ole,
                          Is it true that, instead of using the compound word "upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim", the suttanipaata author could have specified directly either of the two possibilities you mention by choosing a more explicit sentence structure? If so, would it be fair to guess that in using the compound word structure the author actually intended the ambiguity of meaning?
                          Metta,
                          Ray
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Ole Holten Pind
                          To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                          Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:24 AM
                          Subject: SV: [Pali] Re: Upekkhaa



                          Dear Dmytro,

                          > adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
                          > upasampajja viharati.
                          >

                          The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators
                          understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by upekkhaa. Now
                          suttanipaata 1107 reads upekhaasatisa.msuddha.m which the Niddesa
                          understands to mean purity of upekkhaa and sati (upekkhaa ca sati ca suddhaa
                          honti). The two terms are evidently related It seems to me that this old
                          understanding of the term - possibly older than the interpretation found in
                          the Vibha.nga - should betaken into consideration, when discussing the
                          nature of the mental state this term describes, it is, as we know, used in
                          the context of the forth jhaana.

                          Best regards,

                          Ole Pind







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                        • Leo
                          Hi I see that your name is Ukrainian and I wish to know if you live in Ukraine or somewhere else. Wish to talk about Dhamma with you. With Metta Leo
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 3, 2005
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                            Hi

                            I see that your name is Ukrainian and I wish to know if you live in
                            Ukraine or somewhere else. Wish to talk about Dhamma with you.

                            With Metta
                            Leo
                          • Dmytro A. Ivakhnenko
                            Hi Leo, ... Yes, I live in a capital of a wonderful country called Ukraine. Tha language here is very much like Pali :) With Metta, Dmytro
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 4, 2005
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                              Hi Leo,

                              > I see that your name is Ukrainian and I wish to know if you live in
                              > Ukraine or somewhere else. Wish to talk about Dhamma with you.

                              Yes, I live in a capital of a wonderful country called Ukraine.
                              Tha language here is very much like Pali :)

                              With Metta,
                              Dmytro http://dhamma.ru/sadhu/
                            • Nina van Gorkom
                              Dear Ole, ... N: Going back to the Vis text: I do not read the notion of
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 4, 2005
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                                Dear Ole,
                                op 02-12-2005 21:35 schreef Ole Holten Pind op oleholtenpind@...:

                                > It seems to me that there is a marked difference between the view that
                                > satipaarisuddhi is generated by upekkhaa and the view that both upekkhaa and
                                > sati are pure in the fourth jhaana.
                                ------
                                N: Going back to the Vis text: < The fourth jhana...which...'has mindfulness
                                purified by equanimity'.>
                                I do not read the notion of <generated by> upekkhaa. They arise at the same
                                time, there is no previous generation by upekkhaa.
                                The Vibhanga text in English has caused by, but I do not have the Pali. But
                                also this word may not be a problem if we think of conascence. Citta and
                                cetasikas are arising together and experience the same object.

                                Detachment and many other sobhana cetasikas had become strong because of the
                                yogavacara's development of calm. Then it was the right time for the arising
                                of the jhaanacitta of the fourth stage, where upekkhaa, sati and also the
                                other accompanying cetasikas have reached a high degree of purity. It all
                                falls into place at that one moment of jhaanacitta.
                                So I do not think there is a difference of view between the Vibhanga, the
                                Visuddhimagga and the Sutta nipata.
                                Nina.
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