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Upekkhaa

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  • keren_arbel
    Hi all, I would be happy to hear your understanding of upekkhaa. How do you understand the difference between upekkhha-indriya which is vedanaa, and upekkhaa
    Message 1 of 20 , Nov 28, 2005
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      Hi all,

      I would be happy to hear your understanding of upekkhaa. How do you
      understand the difference between upekkhha-indriya which is vedanaa,
      and upekkhaa as a factor of the fourth jhaana, the brahma-vihaara and
      a bojjhanga.
      Do you think upekkha-indriya has a different quality than upekkhaa in
      other contexts?
      Is upekkhaa-indriya can also be described as a physical sensation,
      while at other contexts it is a skillful mental quality?
      Any comments will be very helpful.

      Thanks,
      With Metta,
      Keren
    • Dmytro A. Ivakhnenko
      Hi Keren, ... I think yes. As you wrote, it is a kind of vedanaa, neutral feeling , adukkham-asukha-vedanaa. ... Vedanaa is not exactly a physical
      Message 2 of 20 , Nov 29, 2005
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        Hi Keren,

        > I would be happy to hear your understanding of upekkhaa. How do you
        > understand the difference between upekkhha-indriya which is vedanaa,
        > and upekkhaa as a factor of the fourth jhaana, the brahma-vihaara and
        > a bojjhanga.
        > Do you think upekkha-indriya has a different quality than upekkhaa in
        > other contexts?

        I think yes. As you wrote, it is a kind of vedanaa, 'neutral feeling',
        adukkham-asukha-vedanaa.

        > Is upekkhaa-indriya can also be described as a physical sensation,

        'Vedanaa' is not exactly a 'physical sensation'. For example, it can be
        'kaayika' and 'cetasika', 'saamisa' and 'niraamisa'.

        Hypothetically a being without a body experiences 'cetasikaa vedanaa'.

        > while at other contexts it is a skillful mental quality?

        Upekkhaa as a factor of the fourth jhaana, the brahma-vihaara and a
        bojjhanga is much more than a skilful mental quality.

        First, it comes to notice that here once again the sequence of four
        brahma viharas is consonant to the sequence of four jhanas. It's not too
        surprising since in some suttas a certain stage of practice is described
        interchangeably as either four jhanas or four brahma viharas.

        The sequence of seven bojjhangas is illustrated in Dvedhavitakka sutta.
        Last four bojjhangas (including upekkhaa) correspond to factors of jhanas.

        What does 'upekkhaa' mean in this context?

        PED gives meanings like '"looking on", hedonic neutrality or indifference'.
        Margaret Cone's dictionary continues this trend with 'disinteresedness'.

        Is it truly the summit of Awakening factors, of Brahma-viharas, of
        jhanas - just plain indifference?

        It turns out that these dictionary articles miss a lot.

        In suttas 'upekkhaa' is indeed connected with 'looking on' (upa+ikkh),
        observation:

        And what are the six kinds of household equanimity?
        The equanimity that arises when a foolish, deluded person --
        a run-of-the-mill, untaught person who has not conquered his
        limitation or the results of action & who is blind to danger --
        sees a form with the eye. Such equanimity does not go
        beyond the form, which is why it is called household equanimity.
        (Similarly with sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas.)

        And what are the six kinds of renunciation equanimity?
        The equanimity that arises when -- experiencing the inconstancy of
        those very forms, their change, fading, & cessation -- one sees with
        right discernment as it actually is that all forms, past or present,
        are inconstant, stressful, subject to change:
        This equanimity goes beyond form, which is why it is called
        renunciation equanimity.
        (Similarly with sounds, smells, tastes, tactile sensations, & ideas.)

        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn137.html

        In mundane terms 'upekkhaa' is just observation through six sense media.

        However in supramundane terms 'upekkhaa' is deep and wide seeing with
        discernment.

        In the same sutta we read:

        In this case the Tathagata is not satisfied nor is he sensitive to
        satisfaction, yet he remains untroubled, mindful, & alert.

        Free from both satisfaction & dissatisfaction, he remains equanimous,
        mindful, & alert.

        'upekkhako' is used interchangeably with 'anavassuto' - 'not leaking',
        'free from lust and defilement'.

        The jhanas are also described with a series of similes with calm and
        collected, non-dripping water.

        Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath
        powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again &

        again with water, so that his ball of bath powder -- saturated,
        moisture-laden, permeated within & without -- would nevertheless not
        drip...

        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn119.html#lake

        We can try to combine two descriptions from Salayatana-vibhanga sutta
        (MN 137) in a kind of wide and stable presence, unruffled deep
        observation with wisdom, spanning high and wide.

        This is confirmed by Dhatu-vibhanga sutta (MN 140):

        "There remains only equanimity: pure & bright, pliant, malleable,
        & luminous. Just as if a skilled goldsmith or goldsmith's apprentice
        were to prepare a furnace, heat up a crucible, and, taking gold with a
        pair of tongs, place it in the crucible: He would blow on it time &
        again, sprinkle water on it time & again, examine it time & again, so
        that the gold would become refined, well-refined, thoroughly refined,
        flawless, free from dross, pliant, malleable, & luminous. Then whatever
        sort of ornament he had in mind -- whether a belt, an earring, a
        necklace, or a gold chain -- it would serve his purpose. In the same
        way, there remains only equanimity: pure & bright, pliant, malleable, &
        luminous.

        One discerns that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure & bright as
        this toward the sphere of the infinitude of space, I would develop the
        mind along those lines, and thus this equanimity of mine -- thus
        supported, thus sustained -- would last for a long time. One discerns
        that 'If I were to direct equanimity as pure and bright as this toward
        the sphere of the infinitude of consciousness...the sphere of
        nothingness... the sphere of neither perception nor non-perception, I
        would develop the mind along those lines, and thus this equanimity of
        mine -- thus supported, thus sustained -- would last for a long time.'

        This luminous unruffled presence, equanimous observation, can be spread
        far, high and wide.

        ...

        Well, in commentaries 'upekkha' means just 'majjhatta(taa)' -
        impartiality, indifference, neutrality. This is similar to explanation
        given in Vyasa's commentaries to Yoga-sutra.

        Dr. Thynn Thynn answers:

        Question: Doesn't upekkha mean detachment?

        Sometimes it is translated as detachment, but that translation is very
        inadequate. You have to understand that upekkha transcends both
        detachment and attachment. When you are detached, you may also become
        indifferent if you are not careful. This indifference can lead to
        dissociation and subtle rejection. Upekkha transcends not only
        non-attachment, but also rejection. The mind is very tricky and has many
        nuances you have to be aware of.

        The full essence of upekkha is to go beyond attachment and detachment,
        beyond likes and dislikes, to relate to things as they are.

        Question: Will upekkha lead to inner silence?

        Yes, the only way that will lead the mind to silence is upekkha. Upekkha
        is not just a product of meditation training. It is itself a tool in
        meditation. When you become proficient at looking with equanimity at
        your own mind, your thoughts and your emotions, then this upekkha
        approach will also spill over into other areas of life. You will begin
        to listen, look, feel and relate to everything with upekkha.

        Just mindfulness and concentration do not constitute meditation;
        equanimity must be a constant ingredient.

        Thanissaro Bhikkhu in 'Wings to Awakening' writes:

        .. even-mindedness of a fully awakened person is not an attitude of cold
        indifference, but rather of mental imperturbability. Such a person has
        found true happiness and would like others to share that happiness as
        well, but that happiness is not dependent on how others respond. This is
        the ideal state of mind for a person who truly works for the benefit of
        the world.

        And indeed 'upekkhaa' is described as a kind of unwordly happiness:

        "Now what is unworldly happiness? Quite secluded from sense desires,
        secluded from unwholesome states of mind, a monk enters upon and abides
        in the first meditative absorption... With the stilling of
        thought-conception and discursive thinking, he enters upon and abides in
        the second meditative absorption... With the fading away of joy as well,
        he dwells in equanimity, mindfully and fully aware he feels happiness
        within, and enters upon and abides in the third meditative absorption of
        which the Noble Ones announce: 'He dwells in happiness who has
        equanimity and is mindful.' This is called 'unworldly happiness.'

        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn36-31.html

        A peaceful and exquisite state:

        He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this
        disagreeable thing... this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in
        me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is
        peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., equanimity.'

        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn152.html

        With Upekkha,
        Dmytro
      • keren_arbel
        Dear Dmytro, Thanks so much for the thorough and profound answer, I learned a lot, and it gave me a lot of food for contemplation . With Metta & Upekkhaa,
        Message 3 of 20 , Nov 29, 2005
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          Dear Dmytro,

          Thanks so much for the thorough and profound answer, I learned a lot,
          and it gave me a lot of "food for contemplation".

          With Metta & Upekkhaa,
          Keren.
        • Ray Mondor
          Dmytro, Thank you for your excellent post. I want to ask for clarification on one point: the sequence of four brahma viharas is consonant to the sequence of
          Message 4 of 20 , Nov 29, 2005
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            Dmytro,
            Thank you for your excellent post. I want to ask for clarification on one point:
            "the sequence of four brahma viharas is consonant to the sequence of four jhanas. It's not too surprising since in some suttas a certain stage of practice is described interchangeably as either four jhanas or four brahma viharas."

            This seems to say that
            metta corresponds to vitakka/vicara, piti, sukha, and samadhi,
            karuna corresponds to piti, sukha, and samadhi,
            mudita corresponds to sukha and samadhi, and
            upekkha corresponds to samadhi.

            I don't understand this. Can you explain the meaning and/or specify one or more of the suttas that discuss this idea?

            Thanks and Metta,
            Ray




            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Hi Keren, as you see from Dimitro s post, upekkhaa has different meanings depending on the context. As he said, it is not only indifferent feeling. It also
            Message 5 of 20 , Nov 29, 2005
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              Hi Keren,
              as you see from Dimitro's post, upekkhaa has different meanings depending on
              the context. As he said, it is not only indifferent feeling. It also stands
              for tatramajjhattataa cetasika, one of the ninteen sobhana cetasikas
              accompanying each sobhana citta.

              Quoting from my Cetasikas, taken from Rob K's Web and this is partly
              overlapping Dmitro's post <http://www.vipassana.info/cetasikas32.html> :

              The Visuddhimagga (XIV, 153) states about equanimity :

              It has the characteristic of conveying citta and cetasikas evenly. Its
              function is to prevent deficiency and excess, or its function is to inhibit
              partiality. It is manifested as neutrality. It should be regarded as like a
              conductor (driver) who looks on with equanimity on thoroughbreds progressing
              evenly.
              ...
              There are several other kinds of equanimity. There is equanimity in samatha
              and equanimity in vipassana. When calm is developed or when there is right
              understanding of the present moment there is equanimity which performs its
              function. The Visuddhimagga mentions some aspects of equanimity which are
              equanimity of samatha and some which are equanimity of vipassana. 

                   One of the aspects of equanimity mentioned by the Visuddhimagga is
              equanimity as one of the "divine abidings" (brahmavihara-upekkha) and this
              is developed in samatha (Vis. IV, 158). ...

              The Visuddhimagga mentions other aspects of equanimity, which pertain to
              samatha, namely the specific quality of equanimity in the third stage of
              rupa-jhana (of the fourfold system and the fourth stage of the fivefold
              system (2 See Chapter 8 for the fourfold system and the fivefold system of
              jhana.)), which is called equanimity of jhana (jhana-upekkha) (3 Seed Vis,
              177. In this stage of jhana the grosser jhana-factors of applied thinking
              (vitakka), sustained thinking (vicara) and rapture (piti) have been
              abandoned (see Chapter 8 and 11) . There is still pleasant feeling (sukha),
              but no attachment to it; there is equanimity even towards the highest
              bliss.) and equanimity in the highest stage of rupa-jhana, which is called
              purifying equanimity In this stage also the jhana-factor of happy feeling
              has been abandoned; there is indifferent feeling and "purity of mindfulness
              due to equanimity (Book of Analysis, Chapter 12, Analysis of Jhana, 597, and
              Vis, IV, 194)) . At each subsequent stage of jhana the jhanacitta and its
              accompanying cetasikas are calmer, purer and more refined.

                   Each of the aspects of equanimity mentioned by the Visuddhimagga is
              different. Equanimity as "specific neutrality", equanimity as one of the
              divine abidings, equanimity of jhana and purifying equanimity are all
              different aspects of tatramajjhattata.

                   The Visuddhimagga also mentions aspects of equanimity of vipassana.
              Equanimity as a factor of enlightenment is an aspect of equanimity in
              vipassana mentioned by the Visuddhimagga (IV, 159). There are seven factors
              of enlightenment (sambojjhanga): mindfulness (sail), investigation of Dhamma
              (Dhamma vicaya, which is panna), energy (viriya), enthusiasm (piti), calm
              (passaddhi), concentration (samadhi) and equanimity (upekkha). Equanimity is
              in this case again the cetasika tatramajjhattata. When the enlightenment
              factors have been developed they lead to enlightenment. They are not
              developed separately, but they are developed together with satipatthana. The
              enlightenment factor of equanimity performs its own function while it
              accompanies citta and the other cetasikas. We read in the Visuddhimagga (IV,
              159) about the enlightenment factor of equanimity: "He develops the
              equanimity enlightenment factor depending on relinquishment" (1
              Relinquishment is twofold: it is the giving up of all defilements and also
              the inclination to or "entering into" nibbana (Vis. XXI, 18)). When right
              understanding sees the unsatisfactoriness of all conditioned realities which
              arise and then fall away, there will be indifference towards them.  ....

              There is yet another aspect of equanimity mentioned by the Visuddhimagga
              and this is the sixfold equanimity which is actually the equanimity which
              has reached completion at the attainment of arahatship. We read in the
              Visuddhimagga (IV, 157):
              Herein, six-factored equanimity is a name for the equanimity in one whose
              cankers are destroyed. It is the mode of non-abandonment of the natural
              state of purity when desirable or undesirable objects of the six kinds come
              into focus in the six doors described thus: "Here a bhikkhu whose cankers
              are destroyed is neither glad nor sad on seeing a visible object with the
              eye: he dwells in equanimity, mindful and fully aware." (Gradual Sayings
              Book of the Sixes, Chapter I, I). 

              Nina.

              op 28-11-2005 21:52 schreef keren_arbel op keren_arbel@...:

              >
              > I would be happy to hear your understanding of upekkhaa. How do you
              > understand the difference between upekkhha-indriya which is vedanaa,
              > and upekkhaa as a factor of the fourth jhaana, the brahma-vihaara and
              > a bojjhanga.
            • keren_arbel
              Dear Nina and All, Thanks for the explanation and illuminations. Another question I have about upekkhaa is about the description of the fourth jhaana:
              Message 6 of 20 , Nov 30, 2005
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                Dear Nina and All,

                Thanks for the explanation and illuminations.
                Another question I have about upekkhaa is about the description of
                the fourth jhaana:

                adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
                upasampajja viharati.

                In this sentence there are both adukkhamasukhaa which is vedanaa and
                upekkhaa. What exactly is this feeling of neither-painful-nor-
                pleasant? Is neutral feeling really exists or it is neutral when
                there is some form of ignorance (the underlying tendency of
                adukkhamasukhaa is ignorance)? Is the fourth jhaana has a neutral
                vedanaa as its characteristic?
                Also I am not sure if upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim should be translate
                as "purification of mindfulness due to equanimity", or "purification
                of mindfulness and equanimity", or maybe purification through
                mindfulness and equanimity".

                Thanks,
                Keren.
              • Ray Mondor
                Thanks again, Dmytro. I appreciate the explanation and it is an interesting connection. I ll have to try using the Brahmaviharas as concentration subjects as
                Message 7 of 20 , Nov 30, 2005
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                  Thanks again, Dmytro. I appreciate the explanation and it is an interesting connection. I'll have to try using the Brahmaviharas as concentration subjects as suggested in the Sankhitta Sutta. It seems like a good way to overcome the hindrances, combining the methods of overcoming by concentration and overcoming by opposites.
                  Metta,
                  Ray
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Dmytro A. Ivakhnenko
                  To: Ray Mondor
                  Sent: Wednesday, November 30, 2005 4:34 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Pali] Upekkhaa


                  Ray,

                  > "the sequence of four brahma viharas is consonant to the sequence of
                  > four jhanas. It's not too surprising since in some suttas a certain
                  > stage of practice is described interchangeably as either four jhanas or
                  > four brahma viharas."
                  >
                  > This seems to say that
                  > metta corresponds to vitakka/vicara, piti, sukha, and samadhi,
                  > karuna corresponds to piti, sukha, and samadhi,
                  > mudita corresponds to sukha and samadhi, and
                  > upekkha corresponds to samadhi.

                  No. Brahma viharas can serve as a basis for developing consecutive jhanas.

                  See, for example, Sankhitta sutta
                  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-063.html

                  According to Vimuttimagga and Vimittimagga, three frist of brahmaviharas
                  can lead to three first jhanas, and upekkhaa can lead to fourth one.
                  So upekkhaa corresponds to upekkhaa of fourth jhana.

                  > I don't understand this. Can you explain the meaning and/or specify one
                  > or more of the suttas that discuss this idea?

                  What I mean is that in the description of Buddhist path Brahma-viharas
                  occupy about the same place as four jhanas.

                  See, for example, Udumbarika sutta (DN 20) where Brahma-viharas are
                  placed exactly where jhanas usually belong, between overcoming
                  hindrances and 'abhinna'.

                  Both jhanas and brahma viharas are placed between overcoming hindrances
                  and formless jhanas.

                  "Brethren, who is the brother that has reached deva consciousness ?
                  Herein a brother, aloof from sensual delights (and so forth), having
                  attained to the First Rapture, or the Second or the Third or the Fourth
                  Rapture abides therein.

                  "Verily, brethren, this is the brother who has attained to deva
                  consciousness.

                  "Brethren, who is the brother that has attained to Brahmaconsciousness?
                  Herein, a brother dwells diffusing one quarter with thoughts of loving
                  kindness, compassion, sympathy and equanimity; likewise the second
                  quarter, likewise the third quarter, likewise the fourth quarter. So
                  above, below, around, everywhere, and in all respects thus diffusing the
                  whole world, and with a heart full of loving-kindness (and so forth),
                  developed, grown great, measureless, benevolent and kindly, so he dwells.

                  "Verily, brethren, this is the brother that has reached Brahma
                  consciousness.

                  "Brethren, who is the brother that has reached the Imperturbable ?
                  Brethren, herein a brother, having gone utterly beyond all perception of
                  form and without thinking, about* the perception of opposition' and
                  unmindful of the idea of diversity, attains to and abides in the sphere
                  of unbounded space.* Having in all respects gone beyond the sphere of
                  unbounded space he attains to and abides in the sphere of infinity of
                  consciousness. Having in all respects gone beyond the sphere of infinity
                  of consciousness, he attains to and abides in the sphere of nothingness.
                  Having in all respects gone beyond the sphere of nothingness he attains
                  to and abides in the sphere of neither-pereeption-nor-non-perception.

                  "Verily, brethren, this brother has attained to the Imperturbable.

                  "Brethren, who is the brother that has attained to the Noble State ?*
                  Brethren, herein a brother knows as they really are This is Ill this is
                  Ill's cause ; this is Ill's cessation ; and this is the Path leading to
                  Ill's cessation.

                  Verily, brethren, this brother has attained to the Noble State."

                  http://metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/019-brahmanavaggo-e2.htm
                  http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma/sagga/loka.html

                  Metta,
                  Dmytro



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                • Dmytro A. Ivakhnenko
                  Dear Keren, ... Well, it is not an indifference of ignorance. It s a kind of peaceful equipoise. Seeing with wisdom the ups and downs of mind, feelings of
                  Message 8 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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                    Dear Keren,

                    > adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
                    > upasampajja viharati.
                    >
                    > In this sentence there are both adukkhamasukhaa which is vedanaa and
                    > upekkhaa. What exactly is this feeling of neither-painful-nor-
                    > pleasant?

                    Well, it is not an indifference of ignorance.
                    It's a kind of peaceful equipoise. Seeing with wisdom the ups and downs
                    of mind, feelings of pleasure and pain, one lets them go, and turns to
                    serene observation, as in:

                    "He discerns that 'This agreeable thing has arisen in me, this
                    disagreeable thing... this agreeable & disagreeable thing has arisen in
                    me. And that is compounded, gross, dependently co-arisen. But this is
                    peaceful, this is exquisite, i.e., 'upekkhaa'."

                    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn152.html
                    http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=22344

                    Metta,
                    Dmytro
                  • rett
                    Dear Group, I m curious what (if anything) the Suttanipaa.ta commentary (Pj. Paramatthajotikaa) has to say about verse 693, specifically the word:
                    Message 9 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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                      Dear Group,

                      I'm curious what (if anything) the Suttanipaa.ta commentary (Pj. Paramatthajotikaa) has to say about verse 693, specifically the word: bahujanahitaanukampii. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of Pj.

                      Does anyone have the commentary handy and can send in whatever the commentary has to say about that word? It's probably one or two lines at the most. Thanks for any help.

                      best regards,

                      /Rett
                    • Dmytro A. Ivakhnenko
                      Dear Rett, ... There s nothing about it. Best Regards, Dmytro Suttanipata 697. Disvaana sakye isimavoca akalye, “naaha.m kumaare ahitamanussaraami; na
                      Message 10 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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                        Dear Rett,

                        > I'm curious what (if anything) the Suttanipaa.ta commentary (Pj. Paramatthajotikaa) has to say about verse 693, specifically the word: bahujanahitaanukampii. Unfortunately I don't have a copy of Pj.

                        There's nothing about it.

                        Best Regards,
                        Dmytro

                        Suttanipata

                        697. Disvaana sakye isimavoca akalye, “naaha.m kumaare ahitamanussaraami;
                        na caapimassa bhavissati antaraayo, na orakaaya.m
                        adhimaanasaa bhavaatha.
                        698. “Sambodhiyagga.m phusissataaya.m kumaaro, so dhammacakka.m
                        paramavisuddhadassii;
                        vattessataaya.m bahujanahitaanukampii, vitthaarikassa
                        bhavissati brahmacariya.m.
                        699. “Mama~nca aayu na ciramidhaavaseso, athantaraa me bhavissati
                        kaalakiriyaa;
                        soha.m na sossa.m ‚02 asamadhurassa dhamma.m, tenamhi a.t.to
                        byasana.mgato aghaavii”.

                        Atthakatha

                        697. Ekaadasaaya.m athattano gamananti pa.tisandhivasena
                        aruupagamana.m. Akalyaruupo ga.layati assukaaniiti ta.m attano
                        aruupuupapatti.m anussaritvaa “na daanaaha.m assa dhammadesana.m
                        sotu.m lacchaamii”ti atu.t.tharuupo balavasokaabhibhavena
                        domanassajaato hutvaa assuuni paateti ga.layati.
                        “Garayatii”tipi paa.tho. Yadi panesa ruupabhave citta.m nameyya, ki.m
                        tattha na uppajjeyya, yeneva.m rodatiiti? Na na uppajjeyya,
                        akusalataaya paneta.m vidhi.m na jaanaati. Eva.m santepi
                        domanassuppattiyevassa ayuttaa samaapattilaabhena vikkhambhitattaati
                        ce? Na, vikkhambhitattaa eva. Maggabhaavanaaya samucchinnaa hi
                        kilesaa na uppajjanti, samaapattilaabhiina.m pana balavapaccayena
                        uppajjanti.
                        Uppanne kilese parihiinajjhaanattaa kutassa aruupagamananti ce?
                        Appakasirena punaadhigamato.
                        Samaapattilaabhino hi uppanne kilese balavaviitikkama.m
                        anaapajjantaa vuupasantamatteyeva kilesavege puna ta.m visesa.m
                        appakasirenevaadhigacchanti, “parihiinavisesaa ime”tipi duvi~n~neyyaa
                        honti, taadiso ca eso. No ce kumaare bhavissati antaraayoti na
                        bhavissati nu kho imasmi.m kumaare antaraayo.

                        698. Dvaadasaaya.m na orakaayanti aya.m orako paritto na hoti.
                        Uttaragaathaaya vattabba.m buddhaирaaмф.m ыфтврaaнaaрфю

                        699. Terasaaya.m sambodhiyagganti sabba~n~nuta~n~naa.na.m.
                        Ta~nhi avipariitabhaavena sammaa bujjhanato sambodhi, katthaci
                        aavara.naabhaavena sabba~naa.nuttamato “aggan”ti vuccati.
                        Phusissatiiti paapu.nissati. Paramavisuddhadassiiti
                        nibbaanadassii. Ta~nhi ekantavisuddhattaa paramavisuddha.m.
                        Vitthaarikassaati vitthaarika.m assa. Brahmacariyanti saasana.m.
                      • Ole Holten Pind
                        Dear Dmytro, ... The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by
                        Message 11 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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                          Dear Dmytro,

                          > adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
                          > upasampajja viharati.
                          >

                          The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators
                          understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by upekkhaa. Now
                          suttanipaata 1107 reads upekhaasatisa.msuddha.m which the Niddesa
                          understands to mean purity of upekkhaa and sati (upekkhaa ca sati ca suddhaa
                          honti). The two terms are evidently related It seems to me that this old
                          understanding of the term - possibly older than the interpretation found in
                          the Vibha.nga - should betaken into consideration, when discussing the
                          nature of the mental state this term describes, it is, as we know, used in
                          the context of the forth jhaana.

                          Best regards,

                          Ole Pind
                        • Nina van Gorkom
                          Dear Keren, ... N: Here the yogavacara has abandoned the jhanafactor which is sukha, happy feeling. Thus he has indifferent feeling. ... K: Is neutral feeling
                          Message 12 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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                            Dear Keren,
                            op 30-11-2005 18:14 schreef keren_arbel op keren_arbel@...:

                            > Another question I have about upekkhaa is about the description of
                            > the fourth jhaana:
                            >
                            > adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
                            > upasampajja viharati.
                            >
                            > In this sentence there are both adukkhamasukhaa which is vedanaa and
                            > upekkhaa. What exactly is this feeling of neither-painful-nor-
                            > pleasant?
                            ------
                            N: Here the yogavacara has abandoned the jhanafactor which is sukha, happy
                            feeling. Thus he has indifferent feeling.
                            -------
                            K: Is neutral feeling really exists or it is neutral when
                            > there is some form of ignorance (the underlying tendency of
                            > adukkhamasukhaa is ignorance)? Is the fourth jhaana has a neutral
                            > vedanaa as its characteristic?
                            ------
                            N: There is feeling accompanying each citta. Also when it seems that there
                            is no feeling, such as when seeing arises, there is indifferent feeling. We
                            notice pleasant and unpleasant feeling, but we are ignorant of indifferent
                            feeling. It is difficult to know its characteristic.
                            Indifferent feeling can be kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya.
                            The citta rooted in ignorance is always accompanied by indifferent feeling.
                            When there is not happy feeling nor unhappy feeling we should not think that
                            the citta is kusala. It may be akusala citta rooted in ignorance.
                            When indifferent feeling accompanies jhanacitta of the fourth stage it is
                            kusala and very pure.
                            --------
                            K: Also I am not sure if upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim should be translate
                            > as "purification of mindfulness due to equanimity", or "purification
                            > of mindfulness and equanimity", or maybe purification through
                            > mindfulness and equanimity".
                            ------
                            N: We read in Visuddhimagga Ch IV, 166: <The fourth jhana...which...'has
                            mindfulness purified by equanimity'.
                            It conditions calm and purification of all that is opposed to calm.
                            -------
                            I should add that upekkha can stand for paññaa and also for viriya. Energy
                            that is neither over strenuous nor lax in mental development.
                            The Visuddhimagga Ch IV, 156 and following explains ten kinds of equanimity.
                            *****
                            I would like to add something about the brahma vihara upekkha. This is not
                            only a meditation subject of samatha, but it should be developed in daily
                            life.
                            I quote what I wrote before:
                            <The Brahmavihåra of equanimity can be applied in our socal life.
                            We may try to help others with loving kindness and compassion, but sometimes
                            people are beyond help. When we meet someone who has lost his or her spouse
                            we cannot help this person by having sorrow. When we consider that kamma
                            brings its appropriate result, there can be conditions for equanimity
                            instead of sorrow. We may then be able to speak the right words with true
                            compassion and kindness. The Brahmavihåra of equanimity can also prevent us
                            from worry and anxiety about the health of someone who is close to us.
                            Nobody can prevent kamma from producing its result when it is the right
                            time.
                            The Brahmavihåra of equanimity can also prevent us from being overly
                            involved in other people¹s lives and problems. The Buddha said that the
                            monks should not spend too much time in the village with other people. He
                            did not want them to be overly involved in others lest there be many akusala
                            cittas.
                            The laylife is different from the monk¹s life but we can apply the Vinaya in
                            our own situation. If we are overly involved in other people¹s affairs there
                            are bound to be many akusala cittas: we may have attachment to them or we
                            may cling to our own efforts of helping them. We may be disappointed when we
                            cannot help them or when they do not react as we expected. We may have
                            aversion because of other people¹s contrarious behaviour or unwholesome
                            deeds. When we remember that akusala cittas both of ourselves and others
                            arise because defilements have been accumulated during endless lives, it
                            will condition equanimity.>

                            Actually we need the Brahmavihåra of equanimity when we develop metta and
                            compassion in daily life.
                            Nina.
                          • Hugo
                            Hey Nina!, long time no see. ... MN 44: Cula-vedalla Sutta The Shorter Set of Questions-and-Answers
                            Message 13 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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                              Hey Nina!, long time no see.

                              Just complementing your comment to Karen:

                              > K: Is neutral feeling really exists or it is neutral when
                              > > there is some form of ignorance (the underlying tendency of
                              > > adukkhamasukhaa is ignorance)? Is the fourth jhaana has a neutral
                              > > vedanaa as its characteristic?
                              > ------
                              > N: There is feeling accompanying each citta. Also when it seems that there
                              > is no feeling, such as when seeing arises, there is indifferent feeling. We
                              > notice pleasant and unpleasant feeling, but we are ignorant of indifferent
                              > feeling. It is difficult to know its characteristic.
                              > Indifferent feeling can be kusala, akusala, vipaaka or kiriya.
                              > The citta rooted in ignorance is always accompanied by indifferent feeling.
                              > When there is not happy feeling nor unhappy feeling we should not think that
                              > the citta is kusala. It may be akusala citta rooted in ignorance.
                              > When indifferent feeling accompanies jhanacitta of the fourth stage it is
                              > kusala and very pure.

                              MN 44: Cula-vedalla Sutta
                              The Shorter Set of Questions-and-Answers

                              http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn-044-tb0.html
                              "Neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling is pleasant in occurring
                              together with knowledge, and painful in occurring without knowledge."

                              [...]

                              "What obsession gets obsessed with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"

                              [...]

                              "Ignorance-obsession gets obsessed with neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling."

                              [...]

                              "There is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure &
                              pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress —
                              enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity &
                              mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. With that he abandons
                              ignorance. No ignorance-obsession gets obsessed there."


                              Greetings,
                              --
                              Hugo
                            • keren_arbel
                              Dear Nina & Dmytro, Thanks for sharing your understanding in this matter, I think that I understand this term now much better. With Metta, Keren
                              Message 14 of 20 , Dec 1, 2005
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                                Dear Nina & Dmytro,

                                Thanks for sharing your understanding in this matter, I think that I
                                understand this term now much better.

                                With Metta,
                                Keren
                              • Nina van Gorkom
                                Dear Ole and Dmytro, may I butt in? Qua meaning I do not see a problem with these two texts. In the fourth jhana, where all the coarse jhanafactors have been
                                Message 15 of 20 , Dec 2, 2005
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                                  Dear Ole and Dmytro,
                                  may I butt in?
                                  Qua meaning I do not see a problem with these two texts. In the fourth
                                  jhana, where all the coarse jhanafactors have been abandoned, there is great
                                  purity of all conascent mental factors, the indifferent feeling, sati,
                                  tatramajjhattataa, cetanaa, manasikara, samaadhi, paññaa, etc. They
                                  condition each other by way of sahajata paccaya and aññamañña paccaya.
                                  Nina.
                                  op 01-12-2005 16:24 schreef Ole Holten Pind op oleholtenpind@...:

                                  > Dear Dmytro,
                                  >
                                  >> adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
                                  >> upasampajja viharati.
                                  >>
                                  >
                                  > The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators
                                  > understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by upekkhaa. Now
                                  > suttanipaata 1107 reads upekhaasatisa.msuddha.m which the Niddesa
                                  > understands to mean purity of upekkhaa and sati (upekkhaa ca sati ca suddhaa
                                  > honti). The two terms are evidently related It seems to me that this old
                                  > understanding of the term - possibly older than the interpretation found in
                                  > the Vibha.nga - should betaken into consideration, when discussing the
                                  > nature of the mental state this term describes, it is, as we know, used in
                                  > the context of the forth jhaana.
                                • Ole Holten Pind
                                  Dear Nina, It seems to me that there is a marked difference between the view that satipaarisuddhi is generated by upekkhaa and the view that both upekkhaa and
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Dec 2, 2005
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                                    Dear Nina,

                                    It seems to me that there is a marked difference between the view that
                                    satipaarisuddhi is generated by upekkhaa and the view that both upekkhaa and
                                    sati are pure in the fourth jhaana.

                                    Regards,
                                    Ole


                                    Dear Ole and Dmytro,
                                    may I butt in?
                                    Qua meaning I do not see a problem with these two texts. In the fourth
                                    jhana, where all the coarse jhanafactors have been abandoned, there is great
                                    purity of all conascent mental factors, the indifferent feeling, sati,
                                    tatramajjhattataa, cetanaa, manasikara, samaadhi, paññaa, etc. They
                                    condition each other by way of sahajata paccaya and aññamañña paccaya.
                                    Nina.




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                                  • Ray Mondor
                                    Dear Ole, Is it true that, instead of using the compound word upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim , the suttanipaata author could have specified directly either of the
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Dec 2, 2005
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                                      Dear Ole,
                                      Is it true that, instead of using the compound word "upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim", the suttanipaata author could have specified directly either of the two possibilities you mention by choosing a more explicit sentence structure? If so, would it be fair to guess that in using the compound word structure the author actually intended the ambiguity of meaning?
                                      Metta,
                                      Ray
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: Ole Holten Pind
                                      To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 10:24 AM
                                      Subject: SV: [Pali] Re: Upekkhaa



                                      Dear Dmytro,

                                      > adukkhamasukhaa upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim catuttha.m jhaanaaa
                                      > upasampajja viharati.
                                      >

                                      The term upekkhaasatipaarisuddhim is somewhat pblematic. The commentators
                                      understand it to means that satipaarisuddhi.m is generated by upekkhaa. Now
                                      suttanipaata 1107 reads upekhaasatisa.msuddha.m which the Niddesa
                                      understands to mean purity of upekkhaa and sati (upekkhaa ca sati ca suddhaa
                                      honti). The two terms are evidently related It seems to me that this old
                                      understanding of the term - possibly older than the interpretation found in
                                      the Vibha.nga - should betaken into consideration, when discussing the
                                      nature of the mental state this term describes, it is, as we know, used in
                                      the context of the forth jhaana.

                                      Best regards,

                                      Ole Pind







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                                    • Leo
                                      Hi I see that your name is Ukrainian and I wish to know if you live in Ukraine or somewhere else. Wish to talk about Dhamma with you. With Metta Leo
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Dec 3, 2005
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                                        Hi

                                        I see that your name is Ukrainian and I wish to know if you live in
                                        Ukraine or somewhere else. Wish to talk about Dhamma with you.

                                        With Metta
                                        Leo
                                      • Dmytro A. Ivakhnenko
                                        Hi Leo, ... Yes, I live in a capital of a wonderful country called Ukraine. Tha language here is very much like Pali :) With Metta, Dmytro
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Dec 4, 2005
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                                          Hi Leo,

                                          > I see that your name is Ukrainian and I wish to know if you live in
                                          > Ukraine or somewhere else. Wish to talk about Dhamma with you.

                                          Yes, I live in a capital of a wonderful country called Ukraine.
                                          Tha language here is very much like Pali :)

                                          With Metta,
                                          Dmytro http://dhamma.ru/sadhu/
                                        • Nina van Gorkom
                                          Dear Ole, ... N: Going back to the Vis text: I do not read the notion of
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Dec 4, 2005
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                                            Dear Ole,
                                            op 02-12-2005 21:35 schreef Ole Holten Pind op oleholtenpind@...:

                                            > It seems to me that there is a marked difference between the view that
                                            > satipaarisuddhi is generated by upekkhaa and the view that both upekkhaa and
                                            > sati are pure in the fourth jhaana.
                                            ------
                                            N: Going back to the Vis text: < The fourth jhana...which...'has mindfulness
                                            purified by equanimity'.>
                                            I do not read the notion of <generated by> upekkhaa. They arise at the same
                                            time, there is no previous generation by upekkhaa.
                                            The Vibhanga text in English has caused by, but I do not have the Pali. But
                                            also this word may not be a problem if we think of conascence. Citta and
                                            cetasikas are arising together and experience the same object.

                                            Detachment and many other sobhana cetasikas had become strong because of the
                                            yogavacara's development of calm. Then it was the right time for the arising
                                            of the jhaanacitta of the fourth stage, where upekkhaa, sati and also the
                                            other accompanying cetasikas have reached a high degree of purity. It all
                                            falls into place at that one moment of jhaanacitta.
                                            So I do not think there is a difference of view between the Vibhanga, the
                                            Visuddhimagga and the Sutta nipata.
                                            Nina.
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