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Re: SV: [Pali] most common words?

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  • Everett Thiele
    ... lists to be ... Do you think it might be a good idea to do some trimming in the corpus first? There are so many repeated formula, both in doctrinal
    Message 1 of 25 , Nov 4, 2005
      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Ole Holten Pind" <oleholtenpind@m...> wrote:
      >
      > Dear Dmytro,
      >
      > Your list would be very interesting to me. I regard distribution
      lists to be
      > the way to solid linguistic research of the language of the canon.
      >

      Do you think it might be a good idea to do some trimming in the corpus
      first? There are so many repeated formula, both in doctrinal sections
      and elsewhere, that many words show a much higher frequency than they
      ought to.

      Perhaps an approach would be to take all passages that are repeated
      verbatim (such as doctrinal lists and opening formulas) and only count
      them once total in the sample.

      I suppose it would depend on the purpose of the frequency list. For
      pedagogical purposes it's probably a good idea that upasa.mkamitvaa
      and saavatthiya.m have artificially high rankings. But for studies of
      the language itself, that would appear to be misleading.

      best regards,

      /Rett
    • Ole Holten Pind
      _____ Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af rett Sendt: 4. november 2005 08:39 Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com Emne: Re: SV: [Pali]
      Message 2 of 25 , Nov 4, 2005
        _____

        Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af rett
        Sendt: 4. november 2005 08:39
        Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Emne: Re: SV: [Pali] most common words?

        Hi group,


        The usual Anglo/German explanation of bhikkhave is that since the Buddha
        addressed his followers in exactly that way, and everyone had heard the word
        pronounced that way, it was retained even when the canon was recited in the
        dialect now called Pali.

        Yes, but as I have pointed out below this assumption is contradicted by the
        distribution in the canon of bhikkhave and bhikkhavo.

        regards

        Ole Pind


        best regards,

        /Rett


        >Sukhi,
        >
        >Piya
        >
        >--- Ole Holten Pind <oleholtenpind@...> wrote:
        >
        >> Hi,
        >>
        >> There is certainly a lot of important statistical information that
        >> might be
        >> interesting to pull out of the canon. To give one example of many.
        >> Take, for
        >> instance, the assumption that the Pali canon contains Magadhisms.
        >> Philologists believe that the vocative bhikkhave, for instance, is
        >> a
        >> Magadhism as opposed to that of bhikkhavo. However, there are well
        >> over
        >> 26.000 examples of the use of bhikkhave in the canon, but only about
        >> 160
        >> quotable instances of bhikkhavo. Any linguistically inclined
        >> philologist
        >> would find that statistically significant. The distribution of the
        >> two
        >> vocatives show that bhikkhavo only occurs in verse and in initial
        >> position
        >> in prose, whereas bhikkhave never occurs in such environments. This
        >> indicates that the interpretation of bhikkhave as a Magadhism is
        >> dubious to
        >> say the very least.
        >>
        >> Regards,
        >>
        >> Ole Pind
        >>
        >> _____
        >>
        >> Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af
        >> Clay
        >> Collier
        >> Sendt: 2. november 2005 23:41
        >> Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        >> Emne: Re: [Pali] most common words?
        >>
        >>
        >> Hi Stephen-
        >> I'd thought of the same question earlier, but a little searching
        >> over the
        >> years hasn't turned up any leads to anyone having carried out such
        >> a
        >> project. I initially was drawn to the idea by looking at some work
        >> on
        >> classical cryptography, and its applications to deciphering
        >> incomplete
        >> texts, or untranslated scripts. As a result, tables of
        >> character/letter
        >> frequency were the first thing that I thought of, but I think that
        >> there is
        >> a lot of other statistical information that might be interesting to
        >> pull out
        >> of the canon. I imagine that if you have a statistical 'picture' of
        >> what a
        >> particular body of text looks like in terms of the relative use of
        >> compounds, vocabulary, archaic or under-used declentions, etc., you
        >> have an
        >> additional piece of information to use in trying to assess if a
        >> given text
        >> is in the same style. I would imagine that philologists would have
        >> given
        >> some thought to this sort of method- not sure if it is considered
        >> useful or
        >> not, or to what extent the approach has been tried with other
        >> languages. Any
        >> linguists have any insight to offer?
        >>
        >> Clay Collier
        >>
        >> On 11/2/05, Stephen Hodge <s.hodge@...>
        > > wrote:
        >> >
        >> > Dear Friends,
        >> >
        >> > To add to the request of James Miner fior the 100 most common Pali
        >> words,
        >> > I
        >> > had been thinking recently of asking a somewhat similar question:
        >> Has a
        >> > statistical count been carried out for Pali ? I have a useful
        >> word
        >> > frequency program (Hermetic Word Frequency Counter 3.07) but the
        >> > difficulty
        >> > to use it for Pali / Sanskrit is the large number of compounds and
        >> the
        >> > words
        >> > coalesced through sandhi. Given these problems, I can't see how it
        >> could
        >> > be
        >> > done -- so in the end I didn't bother to ask, though such a word
        >> frequency
        >> >
        >> > list would be useful for pedagogical purposes.
        >> >
        >> > Best wishes,
        >> > Stephen Hodge
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
        >> >
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      • Stephen Hodge
        Dear Ole, Your posts are useful and of interest, but could you possibly stop top-posting -- your most recent message was a.good example. If you do not know
        Message 3 of 25 , Nov 4, 2005
          Dear Ole,

          Your posts are useful and of interest, but could you possibly stop
          "top-posting" -- your most recent message was a.good example. If you do not
          know what top-posting is and why it is to be avoided, please do a google
          search for details.

          Many thanks,
          Stephen Hodge
        • Gunnar Gällmo
          ... I disagree about the principle that top-posting should always be avoided. Bottom-posting an answer to a message which fills the entire screen may be very
          Message 4 of 25 , Nov 5, 2005
            --- Stephen Hodge
            <s.hodge@...> skrev:

            > Dear Ole,
            >
            > Your posts are useful and of interest, but could you
            > possibly stop
            > "top-posting" -- your most recent message was a.good
            > example. If you do not
            > know what top-posting is and why it is to be
            > avoided, please do a google
            > search for details.

            I disagree about the principle that top-posting should
            always be avoided. Bottom-posting an answer to a
            message which fills the entire screen may be very
            confusing, as you don't see the answer at once.

            Gunnar
          • Stephen Hodge
            Dear Gunnar, ... One should use one s common sense -- but that is not quite what is meant by top-posting. Top-posting is generally understood to be piling up
            Message 5 of 25 , Nov 5, 2005
              Dear Gunnar,

              > I disagree about the principle that top-posting should
              > always be avoided. Bottom-posting an answer to a
              > message which fills the entire screen may be very
              > confusing, as you don't see the answer at once.

              One should use one's common sense -- but that is not quite what is meant by
              top-posting. Top-posting is generally understood to be piling up message
              after message in replies back and forth without deleting all that is
              redundant. I don't want to make a big issue of this and make Ole feel
              uncomfortable, but if you look at his last message, you will see that he
              top-posted onto three previous messages followed by a whole load of garbage.
              There are several issues here. If messages are archived by a group, it
              makes searching topics / threads confusing. Also, many people have slow
              connections AND have to pay by the minute for connection times (like me) --
              if everybody did the same as Ole, then my phone bill would steadily increase
              with no benefit to me.

              Generally, it is regarded as good netiquette to snip out = [snip] and only
              quote the necessary pieces of a previous message that are required to make
              sense. In fact, if you do not do this and top-post, as I have described, in
              some groups such as the academic H-NET ones, your message does not get
              posted.

              So, no big deal really, but just a question of mindfulness.

              Best wishes,
              Stephen Hodge
            • Ong Yong Peng
              Dear Stephen, Gunnar, Ole and friends, I agree that it is unsightly to have the trailing garbage, and it is advised that members be mindful of the issue. All
              Message 6 of 25 , Nov 5, 2005
                Dear Stephen, Gunnar, Ole and friends,

                I agree that it is unsightly to have the trailing garbage, and it is
                advised that members be mindful of the issue. All Yahoo! Groups'
                messages come with a footer, either the moderator insert one (as is
                for this group) or Yahoo! will put in a default footer, pointing the
                receipient to Yahoo! Terms of Service, etc.

                Together with this footer is advertisements, which is known as
                sponsored links. These are generated each time a message is issued
                from Yahoo! server. So, they would just keep piling up if no one trim
                them off.


                metta,
                Yong Peng.



                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Hodge wrote:

                if you look at his last message, you will see that he top-posted onto
                three previous messages followed by a whole load of garbage.
              • Ole Holten Pind
                _____ Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Ong Yong Peng Sendt: 6. november 2005 01:24 Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com Emne: [Pali]
                Message 7 of 25 , Nov 6, 2005
                  _____

                  Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Ong Yong
                  Peng
                  Sendt: 6. november 2005 01:24
                  Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
                  Emne: [Pali] Re: Top-posting


                  Dear Stephen, Gunnar, Ole and friends,

                  So, they would just keep piling up if no one trim
                  them off.


                  I agree,

                  The inconvenience of dealing with the barbage just never ccurred to me. I
                  have a very fast connection..

                  Ole Pind


                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Stephen Hodge wrote:

                  if you look at his last message, you will see that he top-posted onto
                  three previous messages followed by a whole load of garbage.
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Rene and friends, thanks for the information. You are always welcome to put useful documents in the Files section. However, please ensure it is not
                  Message 8 of 25 , Nov 6, 2005
                    Dear Rene and friends,

                    thanks for the information. You are always welcome to put useful
                    documents in the Files section. However, please ensure it is not
                    duplicated. If there is any problem, please write to me offlist.
                    Thank you.


                    metta,
                    Yong Peng.



                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, rsalm wrote:

                    I have a Word document with the 1,000 most common Pali words. Don't
                    have a URL source, and am not sure where on the web it comes from. It
                    lists the word and the frequency count. 'Hoti' is #1 (26150
                    times). 'pajahati' comes in at 707 times. Don't know if this is just
                    the Suttapitaka. Will try to attach it to this message. It's 88 kb (5
                    pages). Alternatively, Yong Peng may want to place it in the file
                    section of the list. If it doesn't go through, we'll have to think of
                    something else.
                  • rett
                    ... That was mostly my fault, I believe. I normally trim footers but I had failed to do so in the message of mine that Ole quoted. That s why it became so
                    Message 9 of 25 , Nov 6, 2005
                      > I don't want to make a big issue of this and make Ole feel
                      >uncomfortable, but if you look at his last message, you will see that he
                      >top-posted onto three previous messages followed by a whole load of garbage.

                      That was mostly my fault, I believe. I normally trim footers but I had failed to do so in the message of mine that Ole quoted. That's why it became so long.

                      best regards,

                      /Rett
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