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pdf explaining stem formation

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  • rett
    There s also a very good file in the downloads section on this topic: Formation of Verbal Stems.pdf Common to both conjugated verbs and primary derivatives
    Message 1 of 7 , Oct 4, 2005
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      There's also a very good file in the downloads section on this topic:

      Formation of Verbal Stems.pdf
      Common to both conjugated verbs and primary derivatives 87 KB myanpali
      Offline May 4, 2005
    • flrobert2000
      Hello Rett, Thanks a lot for your explanation. It makes more sense now. The stem comes out of the root, and so the root is the most basic form of a verb I
      Message 2 of 7 , Oct 4, 2005
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        Hello Rett,

        Thanks a lot for your explanation. It makes more sense now. The stem
        comes out of the root, and so the root is the most basic form of a
        verb I guess (I guess it's a bit similar to the root/stem of a
        plant). And as you say, in English or French verbs have no roots.
        This was also confusing me since I was trying to make a parallel.
        I will study the pdf file you suggested me to download. I find both
        Buddhadatta and Warder a bit confusing on this notion.

        Merci,

        Florent


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, rett <rett@t...> wrote:
        > Hi,
        >
        > I hope the following can be of assistance.
        >
        > >
        > >
        > >If I take the verb form "pacati" for example, would "paca" be the
        stem
        > >and "pac-" be the root and "-ti" the ending?
        >
        > Yes. The stem is what you put the endings on. The root is what you
        make the stem out of. Some more examples:
        >
        > Root Stem Pres. 3rd Sing
        > i e eti
        > gam gaccha gacchati
        > ci cinaa cinaati
        > nat nacca naccati
        > dis dese deseti
        >
        > The roots are divided into classes, or ga.na-s, (called
        conjugations by Warder), and each class has its own way of creating
        stems from the roots. This is covered in Warder, though it's split
        up throughout the book instead of all being covered in one place.
        Some roots also take irregular stems.
        >
        > In the above examples, the root 'i' (class I, Warder chapter 1)
        has had its vowel strengthened to 'e' to make the stem. (see the
        vowel gradation chart Warder page 12).
        >
        > The root 'gam' (class I, Warder chapter 2) takes the irregular
        stem 'gaccha'.
        >
        > The root ci (class V, Warder chapter 15) adds 'naa' to make the
        stem.
        >
        > The root 'nat' (class III, Warder chapter 11) adds 'ya' to make
        the stem. The resulting 'ty' in 'natya' assimilates to 'cc'
        according to a regular rule in Pali.
        >
        > The root 'dis' (class VII, Warder chapter 3) takes strengthening
        of the root vowel and adds 'aya' to make the stem: desaya-. Then,
        because of a common sound change in Pali 'aya' reduces to 'e'
        leaving dese- as the stem.
        >
        > etcetera
        >
        > Note that the numberings of these classes can differ in different
        works. I'm using Warder's numbering since you mentioned his book.
        Class VII here, for example, would be called class X in a Sanskrit
        grammar. There are also slightly different numberings in traditional
        Pali grammars. Still, the principles are the same.
        >
        >
        > > Buddhadata mentions
        > >"bhava" as base. Does that mean stem?
        >
        > Yes, if by that you mean the stem derived from the root bhuu.
        Stem/base are interchangeable.
        >
        >
        > >Is there a difference in English between root and stem? For
        example in
        > >"sings" is "sing" the stem and "s" the ending, the root being the
        same
        > >as the stem?
        >
        > As far as I know, the concept 'root' doesn't apply to English.
        It's specific to ancient Indian languages.
        >
        >
        > >Same question with nouns. If nara is a masculine stem, what would
        be
        > >the root of this noun? Why are nouns classified under stems since
        the
        > >stem form is actually never used?
        >
        > Personally I don't think it makes much sense to speak of nouns has
        having roots except in cases where the noun is clearly derived from
        a verb (such as gamana 'the act of going' from gam).
        >
        > best regards,
        >
        > /Rett
      • flrobert2000
        Hello, Actually by looking a few chapters ahead in the second part of Buddhadatta (p74) I found the following explanation which kind of makes sense:
        Message 3 of 7 , Oct 10, 2005
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          Hello,

          Actually by looking a few chapters ahead in the second part of
          Buddhadatta (p74) I found the following explanation which kind of
          makes sense:

          <<A root is a primitive element of the language, expressing an
          abstract idea. It is incapable of any grammatical analysis

          A. It is common in European languages to express the idea contained in
          the root by means of the Infinitive, e.g., Bhuu (to be); but it must
          be borne in mind that the root is not an Infinitive, but a primary
          element expressing a crude idea.

          B. the Classical Pali Grammarians give all roots ending in consonants
          with a euphonic vowel at the end, e.g., Pac(a) = to cook; Gam(u)=to
          go. This vowel however, does not really belong to the root.>>

          With Metta,

          Florent
        • Ole Holten Pind
          ... Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af flrobert2000 Sendt: 10. oktober 2005 17:04 Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com Emne: [Pali] Re:
          Message 4 of 7 , Oct 10, 2005
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            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
            Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af
            flrobert2000
            Sendt: 10. oktober 2005 17:04
            Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Emne: [Pali] Re: Difference between stem and root

            Hello,

            Actually by looking a few chapters ahead in the second part of Buddhadatta
            (p74) I found the following explanation which kind of makes sense:

            <<A root is a primitive element of the language, expressing an abstract
            idea. It is incapable of any grammatical analysis

            A. It is common in European languages to express the idea contained in the
            root by means of the Infinitive, e.g., Bhuu (to be); but it must be borne in
            mind that the root is not an Infinitive, but a primary element expressing a
            crude idea.

            B. the Classical Pali Grammarians give all roots ending in consonants with a
            euphonic vowel at the end, e.g., Pac(a) = to cook; Gam(u)=to go. This vowel
            however, does not really belong to the root.>>

            It is, unfortunately, somewhat more complicated. The /u/ of gam(u) is not a
            euphonic vowel, but a so-called anubandha, an attached letter, indicating
            inflectional pecularities of a specific root. In the case of gam(u), the /u/
            corresponds to Sanskrit /.l/. /u/ was introduced by the Pali grammarians
            because pali disallows the consonant cluster /m.l/. This anubandha indicates
            that the aorist of the root gam is a so-called root aorist, i.e., that it is
            derived from the root gam plus augment and inflectional endings. The canon
            actually records a few examples of the root aorist, e.g., agama.m 1. sg.,
            and agama.msu 3. sg.
            Hope this clarifies a tiny bit of the somewhat esoteric field of pali
            grammar as reflected in the works of the pali grammarians.

            With kind regards,

            Ole Pind




            With Metta,

            Florent







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          • flrobert2000
            Dear Ole, Thank you for the explanation. It is indeed very esoteric! I was actually wondering if the English to be and the Pali Bhuu are somehow
            Message 5 of 7 , Oct 11, 2005
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              Dear Ole,
              Thank you for the explanation. It is indeed very esoteric! I was
              actually wondering if the English "to be" and the Pali "Bhuu" are
              somehow etymologically related. They actually sound and look quite
              similar.
              Regards,
              Florent

              > Hello,
              >
              > Actually by looking a few chapters ahead in the second part of
              Buddhadatta
              > (p74) I found the following explanation which kind of makes sense:
              >
              > <<A root is a primitive element of the language, expressing an abstract
              > idea. It is incapable of any grammatical analysis
              >
              > A. It is common in European languages to express the idea contained
              in the
              > root by means of the Infinitive, e.g., Bhuu (to be); but it must be
              borne in
              > mind that the root is not an Infinitive, but a primary element
              expressing a
              > crude idea.
              >
              > B. the Classical Pali Grammarians give all roots ending in
              consonants with a
              > euphonic vowel at the end, e.g., Pac(a) = to cook; Gam(u)=to go.
              This vowel
              > however, does not really belong to the root.>>
              >
              > It is, unfortunately, somewhat more complicated. The /u/ of gam(u)
              is not a
              > euphonic vowel, but a so-called anubandha, an attached letter,
              indicating
              > inflectional pecularities of a specific root. In the case of gam(u),
              the /u/
              > corresponds to Sanskrit /.l/. /u/ was introduced by the Pali grammarians
              > because pali disallows the consonant cluster /m.l/. This anubandha
              indicates
              > that the aorist of the root gam is a so-called root aorist, i.e.,
              that it is
              > derived from the root gam plus augment and inflectional endings. The
              canon
              > actually records a few examples of the root aorist, e.g., agama.m 1.
              sg.,
              > and agama.msu 3. sg.
              > Hope this clarifies a tiny bit of the somewhat esoteric field of pali
              > grammar as reflected in the works of the pali grammarians.
              >
              > With kind regards,
              >
              > Ole Pind
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > With Metta,
              >
              > Florent
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor --------------------~-->
              > Click here to rescue a little child from a life of poverty.
              > http://us.click.yahoo.com/rAWabB/gYnLAA/i1hLAA/b0VolB/TM
              > --------------------------------------------------------------------~->
              >
              > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - [Homepage]
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              > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
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              >
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