Re: [Pali] Sa.myutta Nikaaya Translation Project Introduction
- Dear Alan,
Thank you very much for your introduction. I really appreciate it very much
that you are willing to do this project for us. It will be a great help for
all of us.
op 03-09-2005 17:18 schreef Alan McClure op alanmcclure3@...:
> As discussed with Yong Peng, every Saturday for the forseeable future I will
> be posting a translation of one or two suttas (depending on length) from the
> Sa.myutta Nikaaya.
- Dear Alan, Nina and friends,
thanks, Alan, for the well-thought introduction. While I cannot say
much for others, I believe your postings on Warder's are very
beneficial on top of John's trilinear postings. At the very least, it
offers new-comers that extra help. My suggestion is that you go slow on
it. The book itself, according to Warder, is designed for three
academic terms, which is roughly 30 weeks (but over 18 months). In a
different mode of delivery (email) and different target group (self-
study students), I think a more realistic and comfortable pace is
weekly posts over 2-3 years.
Like Nina, I am thankful for what you and Ven. Yuttadhammo is offering.
The SN readings will be very beneficial for many Pali students. I hope
that as more people join us in these meaningful discussions, we will be
able to share and highlight issues like methodology, style, and advance
topics in linguistics.
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:
Thank you very much for your introduction. I really appreciate it very
much that you are willing to do this project for us. It will be a great
help for all of us.
> As discussed with Yong Peng, every Saturday for the forseeable future
I will be posting a translation of one or two suttas (depending on
length) from the Sa.myutta Nikaaya.
- I was just thinking about tigers in India, lions in Africa and then it made
me wonder where the expression of lion's roar in the pali suttas came from.
Does it really mean tiger's roar?
And which animal really is king of the jungle? Would a lion mess with an
- Dear Frank,
No, there is a different word for tiger. I think that there was an Asian
form of lion -- Assyrian etc reliefs often show lion-hunting scenes. My
guess is that they were hunted into extinction to satisfy the egos of kings.
Tangentially, elephants and rhinoceroses existed in ancient China but they
too were hunted into extinction. And the way things are going now, many
other creatures will soon become extinct in the wild around the world.
- Hi, Frank;
Asiatic lions aren't quite extinct. There are still a few hundred living in
India's Gir Forest according to National Geographic. See this link for
Charles D. Patton, II
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- Dear Alan,
Thank you for taking on this very useful exercise, and thank you for
such an excellent introduction. I am glad to hear that you are
planning a slower pace of postings than YP's AN translations. His is
a wonderfully worthwhile project too, and I would very much like to
have kept up with those, but have found the length of each post too
overwhelming for the time I have available. No doubt it makes sense
to have a choice of different "speeds" for different list members.
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Alan McClure" <alanmcclure3@y...> wrote:
> Hello All,
> As discussed with Yong Peng, every Saturday for the forseeable
future I will
> be posting a translation of one or two suttas (depending on length)
> Sa.myutta Nikaaya. Taking on this project has occured to me for two
> First, I noted that a project such as that being conducted by Yong
> i.e. the Anguttara Nikaaya, really had the potential to help me learn
> Paa.li, but that it was moving too quickly for my own pace as a
> Paa.li student.
> Secondarily, I knew that due to the layout of the Sa.myutta Nikaaya
> discussed below) I would come across very similar passages in suttas of
> related topics and thus this would help ingrain the Paa.li
vocabulary in my
> mind. Indeed, memorizing vocabulary, of whatever language, has always
> seemed a pitiable task to me, especially when it is me that has to
> memorizing. I wanted to avoid the task of rote memorization as much as
> possible. So I slowly began translating my first sutta.
> As I have worked on the Sa.myutta, I have also continued to move
> "Introduction to Pali" text by Warder. In my opinion, these two
> really go hand in hand as I learn the grammar from one and have a
> test out my new knowledge in the other. Initially, I began posting
> Sa.myutta and Warder translations piece by piece in the Theravada
> E-Sangha were I am a moderator. But, as the posts moved forward, I
> see that no-one seemed to be watching. It seemed to me that if I
> to be posting full translations and grammatical analyses, that
> as well know about it and learn from it. So, I spoke with the
> of E-Sangha, and had the Pali Forum at E-Sangha started in which I
> See: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showforum=50
> Subsequently, I moved my translations of the Sa.myutta and the Warder
> excercises into that forum. At that time, I had completed only the
> three suttas of the second vagga, the Nidaana Vagga, and was feeling
> overwhelmed about moving onto the fourth through the tenth which are
> virtually identical, but even one, is quite long and seemed, at the
> insurmountable task. Luckily, starting a new Pali forum allowed more
> exposure for my project, and Ven. Phra Noah Yuttadhammo happened
> translations. He offered to share the load and so it was decided
> least for the foreseeable future, he would translate the suttas and
> do the grammatical analysis until I felt that I had the skills to do
> and still remain a sane human being.
> From this point, Ven. Yuttadhammo and I completed about two suttas
> and are now working on the seventeenth sutta of the Nidaana-Vagga. The
> reason why I started with the second of the five Vaggas, and why we are
> continuing on with it, is very simple, the first Vagga contains much
> Bhikkhu Bodhi, himself, pointed out in the introduction to his
> that even he would have risked not finishing the Sa.myutta if he
> started with the first Vagga for this very reason. Having also read
> Warder's comment that he chose the Diigha Nikaaya for use in his
text due to
> the lack of verse, which is more conducive to beginning students
> understanding grammar, etc., I decided that the second Vagga would
> best place to start.
> As some of you may remember, when I first began the project, I
posted a few
> questions that showed that I was very confused regarding grammar and
> very, infinitesimal, shall we say, grasp of Paa.li grammar. While my
> understanding of it has probably not grown too much since then, I
> you will see some amelioration of my ability by way of my analyses
> too filled with mistakes. Of course there are tricky spots, and
> are still not my strong side, but I am hoping that with a few
> too many) corrections here and there, that my analyses will be more
> satisfactory and will continue to improve. Additionally, I will
> of any terms/phrases/etc. that seem particularly tricky to me so that
> mistakes do not slip by. As for the translations themselves, since
> Yuttadhammo will not be here to discuss his choices, I will not make
> changes to the final translation drafts that I am posting on my
> ask for the final translation to remain the same anywhere else it is
> too, i.e. Tipitaka.net. However, I will make notes of any discussion
> regarding terms, and so I hope that despite the somewhat rigid
nature of the
> final translation, that we can still discuss the translation choices
> none-the-less and that more people than I will find it useful.
> As for the paa.li version, I started with the CSCD for the first two
> switched to the Buddha Jayanti Version through sutta 15 due to computer
> issues, and then reverted, and will stay with, the CSCD for the
> the project. The digitized Buddha Jayanti has had one too many
> problems, and so we have switched. I will note at the top of each
> translation which version we have used, but after sutta 15, it will
> be the CSCD.
> As for the title of this collection of the discourses, the "Sa.myutta
> Nikaaya," the name has been translated as the "Connected Discourses
> Buddha" by the Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi. "Sa.myutta" itself is a past
> from: (sa.m+yuj II), which means connected or joined together.
> As Bhikkhu Bodhi points out in his introduction, "yutta" means
> "sa.m" means "together." This shows that the quality of the
> of these discourses is like that of topics being "yoked together,"
> somewhat different, but not altogether unlike the old PTS version
> "The Book of Kindred Sayings," which Ven. Bodhi's translation has,
> intents and purposes, replaced in terms of quality. The reason why the
> Sa.myutta Nikaaya is so named is because the discourses are arranged in
> related themes. So far, the main theme of the Nidaana-Vagga has been
> pa.ticcasamuppaada: "dependent origination," and more generally
> However, the topics run the gamut from the aforementioned one to
> mindfulness, to breathing, to Naagas, to stream-entry, etc. This is
> I mentioned, the Sam.yutta is a very useful tool for learning to
> It allows one to see similar terms, slight variations on a theme, and
> repeated terms in various cases, etc. which is highly conducive to
> Thus, with all of this in mind, I bring this introduction of the
> "Sa.myutta Nikaaya translation project," by Ven. Yuttadhammo and
> a close. I hope that everyone will find it useful in more ways than
> As mentioned, this series will run on Saturdays and will consist of
> two suttas depending on their relative lengths. This series will
> continue at the same pace until completed, in however much time that
> take. I have tried to cover most of the relevant information about
> project in the introduction above, but please let me know if you
> further questions.
> With a heart of metta,
> Alan McClure
- Hi Frank and Stephen,
>I think that there was an AsianAs I understand it they were almost hunted to extinction. There are a few left in gir national-park, where they live in close proximity with human cow-herders. The lions and humans tolerate each others' presence after generations of getting accustomed to each other. (The lions also snatch their cows from time to time)
>form of lion -- Assyrian etc reliefs often show lion-hunting scenes. My
>guess is that they were hunted into extinction to satisfy the egos of kings.
It is the only remaining habitat of the Asiatic lion, which has been confined to this forest, since 1884 ( about 239 lions were reported in 1985 ).The Asiatic lion is slightly smaller than its African cousin, nevertheless, a large male lion of the Gir is quite a sight to behold"
- Dear Frank, Stephen, Rett, Charlie and friends,
thanks for the interesting discussion. I have always been wondering
of the origin of the Chinese's Lion Dance.
I think the well-travelled ones may have encountered lions (hopefully
in captivity) in their journeys. Besides the Lion Dance, you may also
find a pair of stone lions sitting at the entrance of (large) Chinese
residences, temples, gardens or even government offices.
I think the concept of lion being the king of all animals probably
can be traced back to Indian origins, and permeates all of Asia. Even
the name of Singapore means Lion City, in Malay it is Singapura, in
Pali it would be Siihapura!
--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, rett wrote:
It is the only remaining habitat of the Asiatic lion, which has been
confined to this forest, since 1884 ( about 239 lions were reported
in 1985 ).The Asiatic lion is slightly smaller than its African
cousin, nevertheless, a large male lion of the Gir is quite a sight
- --- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> skrev:
> EvenAnd in Sanskrit "Si"mhapura", which I suppose is
> the name of Singapore means Lion City, in Malay it
> is Singapura, in
> Pali it would be Siihapura!
perhaps the original form.
And Buddhaghosa's commentaries were based on a
previous commentary in the lion language -
And Ceilão/Ceylon is the Lion Island.
- Hi all,
Thanks for the illuminating discussion on Indian lions still in
existence, stories and origins of nagas in different cultures.
As far as "lion's roar" in the context of the Buddha or arahant
delivering a discourse, I'm still wondering for which reason that expression
1) lion's roar being the most impressive and dominant sound emanating from
the jungle, just as an arahant proclaiming dhamma in the world has a
similarly impressive effect.
2) lion being the king of the jungle, i.e. in a one on one battle with any
jungle creature, the lion would emerge victorious. Similarly, in a one on
one battle, the dhamma would conquer and completely obliterate any other
3) both 1) and 2)
My inclination would be to go with option (3), but I wonder whether the lion
actually is the king of the jungle if it came down to physical
confrontations. Can an animal expert comment on who would win these battles?
1) lion vs. tiger
2) lion vs. elephant
3) lion vs. rhino
4) rhino vs. elephant
As far as who actually has the loudest most impressive voice, again I don't
know the answer to this. Perhaps an elephant actually has the loudest voice,
but the reaction of the other jungle creatures is more like, "Ok, it's just
a plant eating herbivore. We better mosey on out of their way so they don't
trample us, but otherwise no problem." Whereas when they hear a lion,
they're like, Ack!! there's a pissed off and hungry carnivore in close
proximity. Run! Run like the wind!"
- Hi Frank and All,
> As far as "lion's roar" in the context of the Buddha or arahant
> delivering a discourse, I'm still wondering for which reason that
> was chosen:Siihasutta.m - The Lion.
Bhikkhus, the lion, king of beasts in the evening comes out of his
den arouses himself, looks in the four directions, roars three times
and goes in search of food. Bhikkhus, the animals who hear the lion's
roar become frightened and shivering much - those living in holes
enter their holes, those living in water, enter the water, those
living in the forest enter the forest and birds fly away. The king's
elephants securely bound in villages and hamlets, break their bonds
and frightened and shivering, throw urine and excreta and run in all
directions. Bhikkhus, so powerful is the lion, the king of beasts.
Bhikkhus, in like manner when the Thus Gone One is born in the world,
worthy and rightfully enlightened, endowed with knowledge and
conduct, well gone, knower of the worlds, the incomparable tamer of
those to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and
blessed. He declares the Teaching- This is the individual, this its
arising, this its cessation and this is the path to the cessation of
the individual. Bhikkhus, those gods enjoying long life born into
pleasantness established long, in lofty palaces, they too hearing the
Teaching become anxious and frightened and think-We being impermanent
thought were permanent. Not lasting forever, we thought we would last
forever. We too are impermanent, changeful, do not last forever are
an embodiment of an individual. . Bhikkhus, the Thus Gone One is so
powerful and wields power over the world. .