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Re: [Pali] Sa.myutta Nikaaya Translation Project Introduction

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Alan, Thank you very much for your introduction. I really appreciate it very much that you are willing to do this project for us. It will be a great help
    Message 1 of 12 , Sep 3, 2005
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      Dear Alan,
      Thank you very much for your introduction. I really appreciate it very much
      that you are willing to do this project for us. It will be a great help for
      all of us.
      Nina.
      op 03-09-2005 17:18 schreef Alan McClure op alanmcclure3@...:
      >
      > As discussed with Yong Peng, every Saturday for the forseeable future I will
      > be posting a translation of one or two suttas (depending on length) from the
      > Sa.myutta Nikaaya.
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Alan, Nina and friends, thanks, Alan, for the well-thought introduction. While I cannot say much for others, I believe your postings on Warder s are very
      Message 2 of 12 , Sep 5, 2005
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        Dear Alan, Nina and friends,

        thanks, Alan, for the well-thought introduction. While I cannot say
        much for others, I believe your postings on Warder's are very
        beneficial on top of John's trilinear postings. At the very least, it
        offers new-comers that extra help. My suggestion is that you go slow on
        it. The book itself, according to Warder, is designed for three
        academic terms, which is roughly 30 weeks (but over 18 months). In a
        different mode of delivery (email) and different target group (self-
        study students), I think a more realistic and comfortable pace is
        weekly posts over 2-3 years.

        Like Nina, I am thankful for what you and Ven. Yuttadhammo is offering.
        The SN readings will be very beneficial for many Pali students. I hope
        that as more people join us in these meaningful discussions, we will be
        able to share and highlight issues like methodology, style, and advance
        topics in linguistics.


        metta,
        Yong Peng.



        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Nina van Gorkom wrote:

        Thank you very much for your introduction. I really appreciate it very
        much that you are willing to do this project for us. It will be a great
        help for all of us.

        > As discussed with Yong Peng, every Saturday for the forseeable future
        I will be posting a translation of one or two suttas (depending on
        length) from the Sa.myutta Nikaaya.
      • frank
        I was just thinking about tigers in India, lions in Africa and then it made me wonder where the expression of lion s roar in the pali suttas came from. Does it
        Message 3 of 12 , Sep 5, 2005
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          I was just thinking about tigers in India, lions in Africa and then it made
          me wonder where the expression of lion's roar in the pali suttas came from.
          Does it really mean tiger's roar?

          And which animal really is king of the jungle? Would a lion mess with an
          elephant?

          -fk
        • Stephen Hodge
          Dear Frank, No, there is a different word for tiger. I think that there was an Asian form of lion -- Assyrian etc reliefs often show lion-hunting scenes. My
          Message 4 of 12 , Sep 5, 2005
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            Dear Frank,

            No, there is a different word for tiger. I think that there was an Asian
            form of lion -- Assyrian etc reliefs often show lion-hunting scenes. My
            guess is that they were hunted into extinction to satisfy the egos of kings.
            Tangentially, elephants and rhinoceroses existed in ancient China but they
            too were hunted into extinction. And the way things are going now, many
            other creatures will soon become extinct in the wild around the world.

            Best wishes,
            Stephen Hodge
          • Charlie Patton
            Hi, Frank; Asiatic lions aren t quite extinct. There are still a few hundred living in India s Gir Forest according to National Geographic. See this link for
            Message 5 of 12 , Sep 5, 2005
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              Hi, Frank;

              Asiatic lions aren't quite extinct. There are still a few hundred living in
              India's Gir Forest according to National Geographic. See this link for
              more:

              http://www.nationalgeographic.com/ngm/0106/feature3/

              Charlie.
              -----------

              Charles D. Patton, II
              email: cdpatton2003@...
              www: http://www.cdpatton.net/


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Kelly
              Dear Alan, Thank you for taking on this very useful exercise, and thank you for such an excellent introduction. I am glad to hear that you are planning a
              Message 6 of 12 , Sep 5, 2005
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                Dear Alan,
                Thank you for taking on this very useful exercise, and thank you for
                such an excellent introduction. I am glad to hear that you are
                planning a slower pace of postings than YP's AN translations. His is
                a wonderfully worthwhile project too, and I would very much like to
                have kept up with those, but have found the length of each post too
                overwhelming for the time I have available. No doubt it makes sense
                to have a choice of different "speeds" for different list members.

                With metta,
                John
                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Alan McClure" <alanmcclure3@y...> wrote:
                > Hello All,
                >
                > As discussed with Yong Peng, every Saturday for the forseeable
                future I will
                > be posting a translation of one or two suttas (depending on length)
                from the
                > Sa.myutta Nikaaya. Taking on this project has occured to me for two
                main
                > reasons:
                >
                >
                > First, I noted that a project such as that being conducted by Yong
                Peng,
                > i.e. the Anguttara Nikaaya, really had the potential to help me learn
                > Paa.li, but that it was moving too quickly for my own pace as a
                beginning
                > Paa.li student.
                >
                >
                >
                > Secondarily, I knew that due to the layout of the Sa.myutta Nikaaya
                (to be
                > discussed below) I would come across very similar passages in suttas of
                > related topics and thus this would help ingrain the Paa.li
                vocabulary in my
                > mind. Indeed, memorizing vocabulary, of whatever language, has always
                > seemed a pitiable task to me, especially when it is me that has to
                do the
                > memorizing. I wanted to avoid the task of rote memorization as much as
                > possible. So I slowly began translating my first sutta.
                >
                >
                >
                > As I have worked on the Sa.myutta, I have also continued to move
                through the
                > "Introduction to Pali" text by Warder. In my opinion, these two
                projects
                > really go hand in hand as I learn the grammar from one and have a
                place to
                > test out my new knowledge in the other. Initially, I began posting
                these
                > Sa.myutta and Warder translations piece by piece in the Theravada
                Forum at
                > E-Sangha were I am a moderator. But, as the posts moved forward, I
                began to
                > see that no-one seemed to be watching. It seemed to me that if I
                was going
                > to be posting full translations and grammatical analyses, that
                someone might
                > as well know about it and learn from it. So, I spoke with the
                administrator
                > of E-Sangha, and had the Pali Forum at E-Sangha started in which I
                am the
                > moderator.
                >
                > See: http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showforum=50
                >
                >
                >
                > Subsequently, I moved my translations of the Sa.myutta and the Warder
                > excercises into that forum. At that time, I had completed only the
                first
                > three suttas of the second vagga, the Nidaana Vagga, and was feeling
                > overwhelmed about moving onto the fourth through the tenth which are
                all
                > virtually identical, but even one, is quite long and seemed, at the
                time, an
                > insurmountable task. Luckily, starting a new Pali forum allowed more
                > exposure for my project, and Ven. Phra Noah Yuttadhammo happened
                across my
                > translations. He offered to share the load and so it was decided
                that, at
                > least for the foreseeable future, he would translate the suttas and
                I would
                > do the grammatical analysis until I felt that I had the skills to do
                both
                > and still remain a sane human being.
                >
                >
                >
                > From this point, Ven. Yuttadhammo and I completed about two suttas
                per week
                > and are now working on the seventeenth sutta of the Nidaana-Vagga. The
                > reason why I started with the second of the five Vaggas, and why we are
                > continuing on with it, is very simple, the first Vagga contains much
                verse.
                > Bhikkhu Bodhi, himself, pointed out in the introduction to his
                translation
                > that even he would have risked not finishing the Sa.myutta if he
                would have
                > started with the first Vagga for this very reason. Having also read
                A.K.
                > Warder's comment that he chose the Diigha Nikaaya for use in his
                text due to
                > the lack of verse, which is more conducive to beginning students
                > understanding grammar, etc., I decided that the second Vagga would
                be the
                > best place to start.
                >
                >
                >
                > As some of you may remember, when I first began the project, I
                posted a few
                > questions that showed that I was very confused regarding grammar and
                had a
                > very, infinitesimal, shall we say, grasp of Paa.li grammar. While my
                > understanding of it has probably not grown too much since then, I
                hope that
                > you will see some amelioration of my ability by way of my analyses
                not being
                > too filled with mistakes. Of course there are tricky spots, and
                compounds
                > are still not my strong side, but I am hoping that with a few
                (hopefully not
                > too many) corrections here and there, that my analyses will be more
                than
                > satisfactory and will continue to improve. Additionally, I will
                make note
                > of any terms/phrases/etc. that seem particularly tricky to me so that
                > mistakes do not slip by. As for the translations themselves, since
                Ven.
                > Yuttadhammo will not be here to discuss his choices, I will not make
                any
                > changes to the final translation drafts that I am posting on my
                web-site and
                > ask for the final translation to remain the same anywhere else it is
                posted
                > too, i.e. Tipitaka.net. However, I will make notes of any discussion
                > regarding terms, and so I hope that despite the somewhat rigid
                nature of the
                > final translation, that we can still discuss the translation choices
                > none-the-less and that more people than I will find it useful.
                >
                >
                >
                > As for the paa.li version, I started with the CSCD for the first two
                suttas,
                > switched to the Buddha Jayanti Version through sutta 15 due to computer
                > issues, and then reverted, and will stay with, the CSCD for the
                remainder of
                > the project. The digitized Buddha Jayanti has had one too many
                spelling
                > problems, and so we have switched. I will note at the top of each
                > translation which version we have used, but after sutta 15, it will
                always
                > be the CSCD.
                >
                >
                >
                > As for the title of this collection of the discourses, the "Sa.myutta
                > Nikaaya," the name has been translated as the "Connected Discourses
                of the
                > Buddha" by the Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi. "Sa.myutta" itself is a past
                participle
                > from: (sa.m+yuj II), which means connected or joined together.
                Furthermore,
                > As Bhikkhu Bodhi points out in his introduction, "yutta" means
                "yoked" and
                > "sa.m" means "together." This shows that the quality of the
                "connection"
                > of these discourses is like that of topics being "yoked together,"
                which is
                > somewhat different, but not altogether unlike the old PTS version
                title:
                > "The Book of Kindred Sayings," which Ven. Bodhi's translation has,
                for all
                > intents and purposes, replaced in terms of quality. The reason why the
                > Sa.myutta Nikaaya is so named is because the discourses are arranged in
                > related themes. So far, the main theme of the Nidaana-Vagga has been
                > pa.ticcasamuppaada: "dependent origination," and more generally
                "causation."
                > However, the topics run the gamut from the aforementioned one to
                > mindfulness, to breathing, to Naagas, to stream-entry, etc. This is
                why, as
                > I mentioned, the Sam.yutta is a very useful tool for learning to
                translate.
                > It allows one to see similar terms, slight variations on a theme, and
                > repeated terms in various cases, etc. which is highly conducive to
                learning
                > Paa.li.
                >
                >
                >
                > Thus, with all of this in mind, I bring this introduction of the
                upcoming
                > "Sa.myutta Nikaaya translation project," by Ven. Yuttadhammo and
                myself, to
                > a close. I hope that everyone will find it useful in more ways than
                one.
                > As mentioned, this series will run on Saturdays and will consist of
                one or
                > two suttas depending on their relative lengths. This series will
                hopefully
                > continue at the same pace until completed, in however much time that
                may
                > take. I have tried to cover most of the relevant information about
                this
                > project in the introduction above, but please let me know if you
                have any
                > further questions.
                >
                >
                >
                > With a heart of metta,
                >
                >
                >
                > Alan McClure
              • rett
                Hi Frank and Stephen, ... As I understand it they were almost hunted to extinction. There are a few left in gir national-park, where they live in close
                Message 7 of 12 , Sep 5, 2005
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                  Hi Frank and Stephen,

                  >I think that there was an Asian
                  >form of lion -- Assyrian etc reliefs often show lion-hunting scenes. My
                  >guess is that they were hunted into extinction to satisfy the egos of kings.

                  As I understand it they were almost hunted to extinction. There are a few left in gir national-park, where they live in close proximity with human cow-herders. The lions and humans tolerate each others' presence after generations of getting accustomed to each other. (The lions also snatch their cows from time to time)

                  "Asiatic lion

                  It is the only remaining habitat of the Asiatic lion, which has been confined to this forest, since 1884 ( about 239 lions were reported in 1985 ).The Asiatic lion is slightly smaller than its African cousin, nevertheless, a large male lion of the Gir is quite a sight to behold"

                  http://www.cultureholidays.com/wildlife/gir-national-park-and-sanctuary.htm

                  best regards,

                  /Rett
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Frank, Stephen, Rett, Charlie and friends, thanks for the interesting discussion. I have always been wondering of the origin of the Chinese s Lion Dance.
                  Message 8 of 12 , Sep 6, 2005
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                    Dear Frank, Stephen, Rett, Charlie and friends,

                    thanks for the interesting discussion. I have always been wondering
                    of the origin of the Chinese's Lion Dance.

                    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lion_dance

                    I think the well-travelled ones may have encountered lions (hopefully
                    in captivity) in their journeys. Besides the Lion Dance, you may also
                    find a pair of stone lions sitting at the entrance of (large) Chinese
                    residences, temples, gardens or even government offices.

                    http://www.adagiomarine.com/year2001/images_xmas_hobart/F00016.html

                    I think the concept of lion being the king of all animals probably
                    can be traced back to Indian origins, and permeates all of Asia. Even
                    the name of Singapore means Lion City, in Malay it is Singapura, in
                    Pali it would be Siihapura!

                    metta,
                    Yong Peng.


                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, rett wrote:

                    "Asiatic lion

                    It is the only remaining habitat of the Asiatic lion, which has been
                    confined to this forest, since 1884 ( about 239 lions were reported
                    in 1985 ).The Asiatic lion is slightly smaller than its African
                    cousin, nevertheless, a large male lion of the Gir is quite a sight
                    to behold"

                    http://www.cultureholidays.com/wildlife/gir-national-park-and-
                    sanctuary.htm
                  • Gunnar Gällmo
                    ... And in Sanskrit Si mhapura , which I suppose is perhaps the original form. And Buddhaghosa s commentaries were based on a previous commentary in the lion
                    Message 9 of 12 , Sep 6, 2005
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                      --- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> skrev:

                      > Even
                      > the name of Singapore means Lion City, in Malay it
                      > is Singapura, in
                      > Pali it would be Siihapura!

                      And in Sanskrit "Si"mhapura", which I suppose is
                      perhaps the original form.

                      And Buddhaghosa's commentaries were based on a
                      previous commentary in the lion language -
                      Si"mhala/Siihala.

                      And Ceilão/Ceylon is the Lion Island.

                      Gunnar



                      gunnargallmo@...
                    • frank
                      Hi all, Thanks for the illuminating discussion on Indian lions still in existence, stories and origins of nagas in different cultures. As far as lion s roar
                      Message 10 of 12 , Sep 6, 2005
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                        Hi all,
                        Thanks for the illuminating discussion on Indian lions still in
                        existence, stories and origins of nagas in different cultures.

                        As far as "lion's roar" in the context of the Buddha or arahant
                        delivering a discourse, I'm still wondering for which reason that expression
                        was chosen:
                        1) lion's roar being the most impressive and dominant sound emanating from
                        the jungle, just as an arahant proclaiming dhamma in the world has a
                        similarly impressive effect.
                        2) lion being the king of the jungle, i.e. in a one on one battle with any
                        jungle creature, the lion would emerge victorious. Similarly, in a one on
                        one battle, the dhamma would conquer and completely obliterate any other
                        doctrine.
                        3) both 1) and 2)


                        My inclination would be to go with option (3), but I wonder whether the lion
                        actually is the king of the jungle if it came down to physical
                        confrontations. Can an animal expert comment on who would win these battles?
                        1) lion vs. tiger
                        2) lion vs. elephant
                        3) lion vs. rhino
                        4) rhino vs. elephant

                        As far as who actually has the loudest most impressive voice, again I don't
                        know the answer to this. Perhaps an elephant actually has the loudest voice,
                        but the reaction of the other jungle creatures is more like, "Ok, it's just
                        a plant eating herbivore. We better mosey on out of their way so they don't
                        trample us, but otherwise no problem." Whereas when they hear a lion,
                        they're like, Ack!! there's a pissed off and hungry carnivore in close
                        proximity. Run! Run like the wind!"

                        -fk
                      • seisen_au
                        Hi Frank and All, ... expression ... Siihasutta.m - The Lion. Bhikkhus, the lion, king of beasts in the evening comes out of his den arouses himself, looks in
                        Message 11 of 12 , Sep 7, 2005
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                          Hi Frank and All,

                          >frank wrote:
                          > As far as "lion's roar" in the context of the Buddha or arahant
                          > delivering a discourse, I'm still wondering for which reason that
                          expression
                          > was chosen:

                          Siihasutta.m - The Lion.

                          Bhikkhus, the lion, king of beasts in the evening comes out of his
                          den arouses himself, looks in the four directions, roars three times
                          and goes in search of food. Bhikkhus, the animals who hear the lion's
                          roar become frightened and shivering much - those living in holes
                          enter their holes, those living in water, enter the water, those
                          living in the forest enter the forest and birds fly away. The king's
                          elephants securely bound in villages and hamlets, break their bonds
                          and frightened and shivering, throw urine and excreta and run in all
                          directions. Bhikkhus, so powerful is the lion, the king of beasts.

                          Bhikkhus, in like manner when the Thus Gone One is born in the world,
                          worthy and rightfully enlightened, endowed with knowledge and
                          conduct, well gone, knower of the worlds, the incomparable tamer of
                          those to be tamed, the teacher of gods and men, enlightened and
                          blessed. He declares the Teaching- This is the individual, this its
                          arising, this its cessation and this is the path to the cessation of
                          the individual. Bhikkhus, those gods enjoying long life born into
                          pleasantness established long, in lofty palaces, they too hearing the
                          Teaching become anxious and frightened and think-We being impermanent
                          thought were permanent. Not lasting forever, we thought we would last
                          forever. We too are impermanent, changeful, do not last forever are
                          an embodiment of an individual. . Bhikkhus, the Thus Gone One is so
                          powerful and wields power over the world. .

                          http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-
                          Nikaya/Anguttara2/4-catukkanipata/004-cakkavaggo-e.htm

                          Steve
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