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  • dhammarichard76
    Here s some things you might find helpful:There is no Tathagata inside, outside, as, without or in any one of the aggregates:How do you construe this,
    Message 1 of 1 , Jun 13, 2002
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      Here's some things you might find helpful:

      There is no Tathagata inside, outside, as, without or in any one of
      the aggregates:

      "How do you construe this, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as
      being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere
      than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In
      fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?...
      Elsewhere than consciousness?"
      "No, lord."
      "How do you construe this: Do you regard the Tathagata as form-
      feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"
      "No, lord."
      "Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without
      feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without
      consciousness?"
      "No, lord." - SN XXII.86
      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn22-086.html

      Notice that when asked if the Tathagata was "elsewhere" than the
      aggregates, Buddha accepted the answer "No." Similarly with question
      of whether the Tathagata was the aggregates themselves, or something
      without the aggregates. To each of these it was replied "No".

      It may be objected that the text in question refers to the Tathagata
      only in this life, but if you read the beginning of the Sutta it is
      clear that the question is about the Ultimate Nature of the
      Tathagata - i.e. whether he exists or not after death. Our Lord
      Buddha asks a series of questions about the present whereabouts of
      the Tathagata in terms of the aggregates, and, in summation, says:

      "And so, Anuradha -- when you can't pin down the Tathagata as a truth
      or reality even in the present life -- is it proper for you to
      declare, 'Friends, the Tathagata -- the supreme man, the superlative
      man, attainer of the superlative attainment -- being described, is
      described otherwise than with these four positions: The Tathagata
      exists after death, does not exist after death, both does & does not
      exist after death, neither exists nor does not exist after death'?"

      The Tathagata cannot be found as a truth or reality - here or beyond.

      ---

      Further, does it follow that Buddha would proclaim a True Self,
      though refuse to say that it is the same or different than the body
      (the rupakhandha)?

      "Is the soul the same as the body?"
      "That, Poññhapàda, is a matter on which I have expressed no opinion."
      "Is the soul one thing, and the body another?"
      "That, Poññhapàda, is a matter on which I have expressed no opinion."
      - the Potthapada Sutta of the Digha Nikaya (Rhys Davis tr.)

      It would be the same if there was a man who asked if an apple was,
      indeed, different than a snail and the man whom he asked were to
      reply "That, my good man, is a matter on which I have expressed no
      opinion."
      Upon hearing that, the man asking about the apple & snail would be
      in the right to think the other man was a loony.
      In the same way, if Buddha had taught a Self but refused to even
      pay people the common courtesy of saying it was different than the
      body - he would be somewhat of a loony. And he would be even more
      loony if he told people "Yes, I don't proclaim that the body is the
      same or different than the soul, but the body is different than the
      soul."
      But the Buddha was not a loony and the plain meaning is wonderfully
      clear & self-evident: any view of self is a wrong view, whether with
      the body or outside the body.
      Hence, no Tathagata elsewhere than the Khandhas, no Tathagata
      inside the Khandhas, no Tathagata without the Khandhas, no Tathagata
      as the Khandhas, etc.
      There simply is no Tathagata as a truth or reality.

      I have only quoted these 2 Suttas for brevity. There are many, many
      more repeating the exact same things and you will no doubt encounter
      them sooner or later in your Sutta studies.

      A man once came to a well-known message board and proposed 21
      Illogics inherent in the teaching of Anatta. I replied to each of
      these - save for one - with Sutta and he never did reply. I have used
      Thanissaro's translations as they are the most numerous & available
      on the net. All translations are Thanissaro's unless otherwise
      stated. I present them here for your perusal.

      ---


      1. Illogical: SN book 4 "stands on the Other-Shore in emancipation",
      but there is nobody standing there.
      Refutation: The ‘other shore' or ‘end of suffering' is precisely =
      where
      there is nobody standing.

      "Then, Bahiya, you should train yourself thus: In reference to the
      seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the
      heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to
      the cognized, only the cognized. That is how your should train
      yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the
      seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in
      reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the
      cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there
      is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no
      you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This,
      just this, is the end of stress." - Udana I.10 Bahiya Sutta

      2. Illogical: "bliss of emancipation", but nobody who undergoes this
      bliss.
      Refutation: The "bliss of emancipation" is the khandha of feeling.

      "Whatever feeling is past, future, or present; internal or external;
      blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near: that is called the
      aggregate of feeling." - Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48 - Khandha Sutta

      Unwise attention bring about the idea of someone undergoing feeling:

      "He assumes feeling to be the self, or the self as possessing feeling,
      or feeling as in the self, or the self as in feeling. He is seized
      with the idea that 'I am feeling' or 'Feeling is mine.' As he is
      seized with these ideas, his feeling changes & alters, and he falls
      into sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair over its change &
      alteration." - Samyutta Nikaya XXII.1 - Nakulapita Sutta

      Liberation is by getting rid of this thought:

      "Now, Ananda, in as far as a monk does not assume feeling to be the
      self, nor the self as oblivious, nor that 'My self feels, in that my
      self is subject to feeling,' then, not assuming in this way, he is not
      sustained by anything (does not cling to anything) in the world.
      Unsustained, he is not agitated. Unagitated, he is totally unbound
      right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life
      fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" -
      Digha Nikaya 15: Maha-nidana Sutta

      3. Illogical: crossing the shore, but no-self is crossed.
      Refutation: see Illogic no. 1

      4. Illogical: There is clinging (tan.ha) but nothing that is clinging
      (self).
      Refutation: There is only clinging present in the five khandhas.

      "And what are the five clinging-aggregates?
      "Whatever form -- past, future, or present; internal or external;
      blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- is clingable,
      offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that
      is called form as a clinging-aggregate.
      "Whatever feeling -- past, future, or present; internal or external;
      blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- is clingable,
      offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental fermentation: that
      is called feeling as a clinging-aggregate.
      "Whatever perception -- past, future, or present; internal or
      external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- is
      clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental
      fermentation: that is called perception as a clinging-aggregate.
      "Whatever (mental) fabrications -- past, future, or present; internal
      or external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- are
      clingable, offer sustenance, and are accompanied with mental
      fermentation: those are called fabrications as a clinging-aggregate.
      "Whatever consciousness -- past, future, or present; internal or
      external; blatant or subtle; common or sublime; far or near -- is
      clingable, offers sustenance, and is accompanied with mental
      fermentation: that is called consciousness as a clinging-aggregate.
      "These are called the five clinging-aggregates." Samyutta Nikaya
      XXII.48 -Khandha Sutta

      The Blessed One said, "And what, monks, are clingable phenomena? What
      is clinging?
      "Form is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire or passion related to it,
      is clinging related to it.
      "Feeling is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire or passion related to
      it, is clinging related to it.
      "Perception is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire or passion related
      to it, is clinging related to it.
      "Fabrications are clingable phenomena. Any desire or passion related
      to them, is clinging related to them.
      "Consciousness is a clingable phenomenon. Any desire or passion
      related to it, is clinging related to it.
      "These are called clingable phenomena. This is clinging." Samyutta
      Nikaya XXII.121 -Upadana Sutta

      Clinging arises due to Paticca-samuppada:

      "From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From
      fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From
      consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From
      name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From
      the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From
      contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a
      requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite
      condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a
      requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite
      condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging
      & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into
      play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress &
      suffering." - Samyutta Nikaya XII.15 - Kaccayanagotta Sutta

      Paticca-samuppada is not-self:

      Dwelling at Savatthi... Then a certain brahman went to the Blessed One
      and, on arrival, exchanged courteous greetings with him. After an
      exchange of friendly greetings & courtesies, he sat to one side. As he
      was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "What now, Master
      Gotama: Is the one who acts the same one who experiences [the results
      of the act]?"
      [The Buddha:] "[To say,] 'The one who acts is the same one who
      experiences,' is one extreme."
      [The brahman:] "Then, Master Gotama, is the one who acts someone other
      than the one who experiences?"
      [The Buddha:] "[To say,] 'The one who acts is someone other than the
      one who experiences,' is the second extreme. Avoiding both of these
      extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by means of the middle:
      From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From
      fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From
      consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From
      name-&-form as a
      requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media
      as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite
      condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes
      craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes
      clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition
      comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.
      From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow,
      lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the
      origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering.
      "Now from the remainderless fading & cessation of that very ignorance
      comes the cessation of fabrications. From the cessation of
      fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness. From the cessation
      of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form. From the
      cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media.
      From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of
      contact. From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling.
      From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving. From the
      cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance. From
      the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming.
      From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth. From the
      cessation of birth, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain,
      distress, & despair all cease. Such is the cessation of this entire
      mass of stress & suffering." - Samyutta Nikaya XII.46 - Annatra Sutta

      5. Illogical: There is a path but nothing that reaps its attainment.
      Refutation: see Samyutta Nika XII.46 above.

      6. Illogical: There is religion but no fruit of following it
      (selflessness).
      Refutation: see Samyutta Nika XII.46 above.

      7. Illogical: There is a Buddha, but he is only composed up of what is
      evil by nature (Khandhas).
      Refutation: "How do you construe this, Anuradha: Do you regard form as
      the Tathagata?"
      "No, lord."
      "Do you regard feeling as the Tathagata?"
      "No, lord."
      "Do you regard perception as the Tathagata?"
      "No, lord."
      "Do you regard fabrications as the Tathagata?"
      "No, lord."
      "Do you regard consciousness as the Tathagata?"
      "No, lord."
      "How do you construe this, Anuradha: Do you regard the Tathagata as
      being in form?... Elsewhere than form?... In feeling?... Elsewhere
      than feeling?... In perception?... Elsewhere than perception?... In
      fabrications?... Elsewhere than fabrications?... In consciousness?...
      Elsewhere than consciousness?"
      "No, lord."
      "How do you construe this: Do you regard the Tathagata as
      form-feeling-perception-fabrications-consciousness?"
      "No, lord."
      "Do you regard the Tathagata as that which is without form, without
      feeling, without perception, without fabrications, without
      consciousness?"
      "No, lord." - Samyutta Nikaya XXII.86 - Anuradha Sutta

      8. Illogical: There is perfection, but nothing perfect (selfhood)
      Refutation: By 'perfection' I think you mean Arahantship. If so,
      perfections is defined as state free from clinging. The khandha of
      consciousness is free'd from clinging (quote sutta):

      "If a monk abandons passion for the property of form...
      "If a monk abandons passion for the property of feeling...
      "If a monk abandons passion for the property of perception...
      "If a monk abandons passion for the property of fabrications...
      "If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then
      owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there
      is no base for consciousness. Consciousness, thus unestablished, not
      proliferating, not performing any function, is released. Owing to its
      release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing
      to its contentment, it is not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is
      totally unbound right within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the
      holy life fulfilled, the task done. There is nothing further for this
      world.'" - Samyutta Nikaya XXII.53 - Upaya Sutta

      9. Illogical: There is an ultimate, but no-self reaps its attainment
      Refutation: The ultimate is where there is no conception of self. See
      Illogic no. 1

      10. Illogical: There is escape from Samsara, but no element that
      escapes it ultimately.
      Refutation: Samsara is a process that ceases. There is no need to
      bring in an element that escapes it.

      "And what is birth? Whatever birth, taking birth, descent,
      coming-to-be, coming-forth, appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of
      [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings,
      that is called birth." - Samyutta Nikaya XII.2 -
      Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta

      "I have seen beings who -- endowed with bodily good conduct, verbal
      good conduct, & mental good conduct; who did not revile Noble Ones,
      who held right views and undertook actions under the influence of
      right views -- at the break-up of the body, after death, have
      re-appeared in the good destination, the heavenly world. It is not
      from having heard this from other priests & contemplatives that I tell
      you that I have seen beings who -- endowed with bodily good conduct,
      verbal good conduct, & mental good conduct; who did not revile noble
      ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence
      of right views -- at the break-up of the body, after death, have
      re-appeared in the good destination, the heavenly world. It is from
      having known it myself, seen it myself, realized it myself that I tell
      you that I have seen beings who -- endowed with bodily good conduct,
      verbal good conduct, & mental good conduct; who did not revile noble
      ones, who held right views and undertook actions under the influence
      of right views -- at the break-up of the body, after death, have
      re-appeared in the good destination, the heavenly world." -- Iti 71

      Then Ven. Radha went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed
      down to him sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the
      Blessed One: "'A being,' lord. 'A being,' it's said. To what extent is
      one said to be 'a being'?"
      "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for form, Radha: when one is
      caught up (satta) there, tied up (visatta) there, one is said to be 'a
      being (satta).'
      "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for feeling... perception...
      fabrications...
      "Any desire, passion, delight, or craving for consciousness, Radha:
      when one is caught up there, tied up there, one is said to be 'a
      being.'
      "Just as when boys or girls are playing with little sand castles (lit:
      dirt houses): as long as they are not free from passion, desire, love,
      thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles, that's how
      long they have fun with those sand castles, enjoy them, treasure them,
      feel possessive of them. But when they become free from passion,
      desire, love, thirst, fever, & craving for those little sand castles,
      then they smash them, scatter them, demolish them with their hands or
      feet and make them unfit for play.
      "In the same way, Radha, you too should smash, scatter, & demolish
      form, and make it unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving
      for form.
      "You should smash, scatter, & demolish feeling, and make it unfit for
      play. Practice for the ending of craving for feeling.
      "You should smash, scatter, & demolish perception, and make it unfit
      for play. Practice for the ending of craving for perception.
      "You should smash, scatter, & demolish fabrications, and make them
      unfit for play. Practice for the ending of craving for fabrications.
      "You should smash, scatter, & demolish consciousness and make it unfit
      for play. Practice for the ending of craving for consciousness -- for
      the ending of craving, Radha, is Unbinding." - Samyutta Nikaya XXIII.2
      - Satta Sutta

      11. Illogical: There are Khandhas (aggregates/phenomena) but nothing
      that liberates from them, i.e. oblivion-dogma
      Refutation: Nothing is liberated from the Khandhas, but the Khandhas
      are liberated from clinging.

      "Consciousness, thus unestablished, not proliferating, not performing
      any function, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing
      to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is
      not agitated. Not agitated, he (the monk) is totally unbound right
      within. He discerns that 'Birth is ended, the holy life fulfilled, the
      task done. There is nothing further for this world.'" - Samyutta
      Nikaya XXII.53 - Upaya Sutta

      also see Illogic no. 4

      12. Illogical: Since there is always other (khandhas), and never self
      (atta'), then perfection is always being other and never self.
      Refutation: ‘Self' is a product of unwise attention:

      "There is the case where an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person --
      who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in
      their Dhamma; who has no regard for men of integrity, is not
      well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- does not discern what
      ideas are fit for attention or what ideas are unfit for attention.
      This being so, he does not attend to ideas fit for attention and
      attends [instead] to ideas unfit for attention.
      "This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not
      in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having
      been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I
      not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in
      the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else
      he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not?
      What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it
      bound?'
      "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view
      arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true &
      established, or the view I have no self ... or the view It is
      precisely by means of self that I perceive self ... or the view It is
      precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self ... or the view It
      is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him
      as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self
      of mine -- the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening
      of good & bad actions -- is the self of mine that is constant,
      everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will endure as long
      as eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views,
      a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound
      by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not
      freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain,
      distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering &
      stress." - Majjhima Nikaya 2 - Sabbasava Sutta

      13. Illogical: The goal of Buddhism is to emancipation from
      Punabhavati (becoming and Re-becoming), but this does not designate
      there is emancipation of anything on the ultimate level.
      Refutation: The goal of Buddhism is not emancipation from Punabhavati,
      but the cessation of Punabhavati.

      "From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth.
      From birth as a requisite condition, then old age and death, sorrow,
      lamentation, pain, distress, and despair come into play. Such is the
      origination of this entire mass of stress and suffering.
      "From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth.
      From the cessation of birth, then old age and death, sorrow,
      lamentation, pain, distress, and despair all cease.
      Such is the cessation of this entire mass of stress and suffering." -
      Udana I.3 - Bodhi Sutta

      14. Illogical: There is grasping [ie 2nd noble truth of source of
      suffering], (Tan.ha),but nothing that is grasping of its own accord
      apart from the absence of the attribute of grasping.
      Refutation: see Illogic no. 4

      15. Illogical: Buddhism became popular amongst Brahmins who believed
      in a Soul, by spreading a Nihilistic dogma that ultimately, in every
      way, you never exist in any true sense.
      Refutation: Buddhagosa was a Brahman who was well versed
      in the Vedas (probably the Upanisads too), as well as the Yoga verses
      of Patanjali, but totally denied any form of self in the
      Visuddhimagga.

      16. Illogical: There is suffering, but nothing ultimately that reaps
      the rewards of living the holy life, ie absence is absolute.
      Refutation: See Illogic no. 11 and no. 1

      17. Illogical: Gotama taught not only absence of suffering (dukkha)
      and its root (tanha), but also the absence of that which is undergoing
      suffering and clinging.
      Pefutation: Perception of a ‘something which undergoes suffering' is
      wrong attention:

      "That any priests & contemplatives -- teachers of kamma who declare
      that pleasure & pain are self-made -- would be sensitive to pleasure &
      pain otherwise than through contact: that isn't possible. That any
      priests & contemplatives -- teachers of kamma who declare that
      pleasure & pain are other-made... self-made & other-made... who
      declare that pleasure & pain are neither self-made nor other-made, but
      arise spontaneously -- would be sensitive to pleasure & pain otherwise
      than through contact: that isn't possible."
      "When there is a body, pleasure & pain arise internally with bodily
      intention as the cause; or when there is speech, pleasure & pain arise
      internally with verbal intention as the cause; or when there is
      intellect, pleasure & pain arise internally with intellectual
      intention as the cause.
      "From ignorance as requisite condition, then either of one's own
      accord one fabricates the bodily fabrication on account of which that
      pleasure & pain arise internally, or because of others one fabricates
      the bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure & pain arise
      internally. Either alert one fabricates the bodily fabrication on
      account of which that pleasure & pain arise internally, or unalert one
      fabricates the bodily fabrication on account of which that pleasure &
      pain arise internally. (Similarly with verbal & intellectual
      fabrications.)
      "Now, ignorance is bound up in these things. From the remainderless
      fading & cessation of that very ignorance, there no longer exists [the
      sense of] the body on account of which that pleasure & pain internally
      arise. There no longer exists the speech... the intellect on account
      of which that pleasure & pain internally arise. There no longer exists
      the field, the site, the dimension, or the issue on account of which
      that pleasure & pain internally arise." Samyutta Nikaya XII.25 -
      Bhumija Sutta

      Also see illogic no. 3 and 4

      18. Illogical: Gotama is called the "great doctor" in Sutta, but he
      isn't interested in curing you, but in destroying you ultimately
      (nihilism).
      Refutation: Wrong, buddy.

      As they were sitting there, they said to Ven. Yamaka, "Is it true,
      friend Yamaka, that this evil supposition has arisen to you: 'As I
      understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed One, a monk with no
      more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is annihilated, perishes,
      & does not exist after death.'
      "Yes, friends. As I understand the Teaching explained by the Blessed
      One, a monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the body, is
      annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death."
      "Don't say that, friend Yamaka. Don't misrepresent the Blessed One.
      It's not good to misrepresent the Blessed One, for the Blessed One
      would not say, 'A monk with no more effluents, on the break-up of the
      body, is annihilated, perishes, & does not exist after death.'" -
      Samyutta Nikaya XXII.85 Yamaka Sutta

      "And if I -- being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is no
      self -- were to answer that there is no self, the bewildered
      Vacchagotta would become even more bewildered: 'Does the self I used
      to have now not exist?'" - Samyutta Nikaya XLIV.10 Ananda Sutta

      "What others call happiness, that the Noble Ones declare to be
      suffering. What others call suffering, that the Noble Ones have found
      to be happiness. See how difficult it is to understand the Dhamma!" -
      Sutta Nipata vv. 756-765, Ireland's translation.

      19. Illogical: Gotama states succinctly that ultimate bliss is to
      uproot all defilements, but that truly there is nobody that ultimately
      uproots it.
      Refutation: The state of ‘nobody' is the end of suffering, i.e.
      ultimate bliss. See Illogic no. 1

      20. Illogical: Gotama says that not only is suffering to be negated,
      but also him who negates it, creating a self-negation paradox.
      Refutation: There's nothing to negate but unwise attention.

      Then Mara the Evil One, wanting to arouse fear, horripilation, &
      terror in her, wanting to make her fall away from concentration,
      approached her & addressed her in verse:

      "By whom was this living being created?
      Where is the living being's maker?
      Where has the living being originated?
      Where does the living being
      cease?

      Then the thought occurred to Vajira the nun: "Now who has recited this
      verse -- a human being or a non-human one?" Then it occurred to her:
      "This is Mara the Evil One, who has recited this verse wanting to
      arouse fear, horripilation, & terror in me, wanting to make me fall
      away from concentration."
      Then, having understood that "This is Mara the Evil One," she replied
      to him in verses:

      "What? Do you assume a 'living being,' Mara?
      Do you take a position?
      This is purely a pile of fabrications.
      Here no living being
      can be pinned down.
      Just as when, with an assemblage of parts,
      there's the word,
      chariot,
      even so when aggregates are present,
      there's the convention of
      living being.
      For only stress is what comes to be;
      stress, what remains & falls away.
      Nothing but stress comes to be.
      Nothing ceases but stress."

      Then Mara the Evil One -- sad & dejected at realizing, "Vajira the nun
      knows me" -- vanished right there. - Samyutta Nikaya V.10 - Vajira
      Sutta

      21. Illogical: "Buddhists" know that nihilism is a heresy in Sutta,
      and yet cannot escape the fact that their viewpoint is inseperable
      from nihilism in every respect and vehemently deny this obvious fact
      when confronted with it.
      Refutation: Nihilism is defined in Sutta as:

      "There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is
      no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no
      next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no
      priests or contemplatives who, faring rightly and practicing rightly,
      proclaim this world and the next after having directly known and
      realized it for themselves. A person is a composite of four primary
      elements. At death, the earth (in the body) returns to and merges with
      the (external) earth-substance. The fire returns to and merges with
      the external fire-substance. The liquid returns to and merges with the
      external liquid-substance. The wind returns to and merges with the
      external wind-substance. The sense-faculties scatter into space. Four
      men, with the bier as the fifth, carry the corpse. Its eulogies are
      sounded only as far as the charnel ground. The bones turn
      pigeon-colored. The offerings end in ashes. Generosity is taught by
      idiots. The words of those who speak of existence after death are
      false, empty chatter. With the break-up of the body, the wise and the
      foolish alike are annihilated, destroyed. They do not exist after
      death.' " - Digha Nikaya 2 - Samannaphala Sutta

      Some "Buddhists" do believe that - not all, though.

      ---

      And a final note,

      Anyone who teaches you Dhamma should practice it himself. If they,
      themselves, do not practice the Dhamma, then, according to that very
      same Dhamma, they are unfit to teach it.

      As it says in the Flower Chapter of the Dhammapada:

      "Like a beautiful flower, full of colour, but without scent, are the
      fine but fruitless words of him who does not act accordingly."

      And one of these - perhaps the most important, even - is Samma-
      vaca, usually translated as "Right Speech."
      Now, take a deep breath, count backward from 5 and read what
      Glorious, Mighty things Right Speech entails:

      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/samma-vaca.html

      Beautiful, isn't it?

      There are some jokers on the Usenet boards who proclaim a self in the
      Pali Canon but also proclaim their fellow, suffering beings
      are "scum" "rancid fecal matter" and exort them to kill themselves.
      You can see for yourself at http://www.google.com if you type in the
      name ScriptureAuthor.

      Much metta to you, Samatha
      Have a wonderful day. :)
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