Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: Stanz of SN 1.3.1

Expand Messages
  • yifertw
    Dear Nina: As I am reading SN Sagathavagga against Chinese SA with Ven. Bodhi s translation, I found appadu.t.thapadosinan of Stanza SN 1.3.1 had been
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 2, 2005
    • 0 Attachment
      Dear Nina:
      As I am reading SN Sagathavagga against Chinese SA with Ven.
      Bodhi's translation, I found "appadu.t.thapadosinan" of Stanza
      SN 1.3.1 had been translated into Chinese as "Not offending against
      others will not receive hatred from the others". This translation
      had been done at the year of A.C. 443. It sounds the original
      translator (Ven. Gunabhadra) treated "appadu.t.tha" as "not offending
      against" and "dosa" as "hatred".
      Could you help me to offer the grammatical analysis
      of "appadu.t.thapadosinan"?
      Yifer

      > Hi Yifer,
      > op 31-07-2005 14:46 schreef yifertw op yifertw@y...:
      > > The first verse of SN 1.3.1 is:
      > > Naaphusanta.m phusati ca, phusanta~nca tato phuse;
      > > tasmaa phusanta.m phusati, appadu.t.thapadosinan.
      > > Ven. Bodhi's translation is:
      > > [It does not touch one who does not touch,
      > > But then will touch the one who touches.
      > > Therefore it touches the one who touches,
      > > The one who wrongs an innocent man.]
      >
      > > My questions are:
      > > 1. There are two "it" in this verse, what does it stand for?
      > > Does it stand for "kamma" or these to sentence just to
      > > convince readers not to act that way?
      > > 2. There are 6 "touch" in this verse, what does it stand for
      > > respectively?
      > -----
      > PTS footnote: two meanings of touch, an active one (performing
      kamma) and a
      > passive one: receiving the result of kamma, thus, vipaaka.
      > 1: vipaaka will not come to (touch) the person who 2.does not
      commit kamma.
      > (touch, makes feel, commit kamma)
      > 3. But then will touch (vipaaka will touch), 4 the one who touches
      (who
      > commits kamma)
      > 5 Therefore it touches the one (vipaaka touches), 6 who touches
      (who commits
      > kamma).
      > First part of your Q. may also be solved now.
      > Nina.
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Dear Sitala, Yifer, Ole. thank you, Sitala. Let us look at what Ole said. See below. ... Ole: The it refers to paapam evil action of the next verse.
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 3, 2005
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear Sitala, Yifer, Ole.
        thank you, Sitala.
        Let us look at what Ole said.
        See below.
        op 02-08-2005 17:55 schreef Sitala (Zorigto) op sitalatwo@...:
        > The first verse of SN 1.3.1 is:
        >> Naaphusanta.m phusati ca, phusanta~nca tato phuse;
        >> tasmaa phusanta.m phusati, appadu.t.thapadosinan.

        >> Ven. Bodhi's translation is:
        >> [It does not touch one who does not touch,
        > It (the object) does not touch (give effect/wavering)
        > one who does not touch (who takes object as it is
        > without craving/clinging)
        >> But then will touch the one who touches.
        > But then will touch (gives effect/wavering) the one
        > who touches (who is not taking an object as it is,
        > takes with craving/clinging)
        >> Therefore it touches the one who touches,
        > Therefore it (the object) touches (gives rise to
        > wavering/suffering in) the one who touches (who does
        > take an object with craving/clinging)
        >> The one who wrongs an innocent man.
        > The one (an object) wrongs (ruins) an innocent man
        > (unprotected from desires man).
        >
        > Could this be possible meaning of this text? We tried
        > to analyse it according to the position of Phassa -
        > cakkhupasadassa phasso, etc., (as in the link of Law
        > of Dependent Originations) contact based on the
        > eye-basement, and accordingly eye-object will take
        > place of "It". And so on, for all objects.
        > In the last sentence, "the one" might be the object
        > again, not a person, for it says that it
        > wrongs/harms/ruins/distructs "an innocent man", in
        > here We used unprotected man + from desires, for only
        > a man who is not guarding his sense-faculties will
        > fail to protect oneself from desires/defilements to
        > arrise.
        >
        > The questions you raised will remain partly not
        > answered, but what we think, is : "it"s stand for
        > something that causes an action of touching. Therefore
        > we assume it to be an object of contemplation. "The
        > one" in the last sentence is assumed as in explanation
        > above.
        > If We are wrong, waiting for corrections.
        >------
        Ole: The "it" refers to paapam "evil action" of the next verse.
        Phusati occurs in a similar context with paapam as subject at It IV 10 verse
        four: tam eva paapa.m phusse/ati.
        ------
        Nina: I followed the Thai and Commentary: Vipaaka will not touch the person
        who does not touch kamma (performs kamma), etc.
        It seems to me that this sutta deals with kamma and vipaaka.
        Nina.
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Dear Yifer, ... N: padussati: offend against. pp: padu.t.tha padosin: abusing. appadu.t.thapadosinan: the person who harms an innocent person. Here: an arahat,
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 3, 2005
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Yifer,
          op 03-08-2005 02:00 schreef yifertw op yifertw@...:

          > Dear Nina:
          > As I am reading SN Sagathavagga against Chinese SA with Ven.
          > Bodhi's translation, I found "appadu.t.thapadosinan" of Stanza
          > SN 1.3.1 had been translated into Chinese as "Not offending against
          > others will not receive hatred from the others". This translation
          > had been done at the year of A.C. 443. It sounds the original
          > translator (Ven. Gunabhadra) treated "appadu.t.tha" as "not offending
          > against" and "dosa" as "hatred".
          > Could you help me to offer the grammatical analysis
          > of "appadu.t.thapadosinan"?
          ---
          N: padussati: offend against. pp: padu.t.tha
          padosin: abusing.
          appadu.t.thapadosinan: the person who harms an innocent person. Here: an
          arahat, according to the Co. The Co states that this is the law of kamma and
          vipaaka. He may be reborn in one of the four unhappy planes.
          See the last stanza of this sutta. This is very clear. The evil deed returns
          to the wicked one , like fine dust thrown against the wind.
          Nina.
        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.