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Re: [Pali] Stanz of SN 1.3.1

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Hi Yifer, ... PTS footnote: two meanings of touch, an active one (performing kamma) and a passive one: receiving the result of kamma, thus, vipaaka. 1: vipaaka
    Message 1 of 10 , Aug 1, 2005
      Hi Yifer,
      op 31-07-2005 14:46 schreef yifertw op yifertw@...:
      > The first verse of SN 1.3.1 is:
      > Naaphusanta.m phusati ca, phusanta~nca tato phuse;
      > tasmaa phusanta.m phusati, appadu.t.thapadosinan.
      > Ven. Bodhi's translation is:
      > [It does not touch one who does not touch,
      > But then will touch the one who touches.
      > Therefore it touches the one who touches,
      > The one who wrongs an innocent man.]

      > My questions are:
      > 1. There are two "it" in this verse, what does it stand for?
      > Does it stand for "kamma" or these to sentence just to
      > convince readers not to act that way?
      > 2. There are 6 "touch" in this verse, what does it stand for
      > respectively?
      -----
      PTS footnote: two meanings of touch, an active one (performing kamma) and a
      passive one: receiving the result of kamma, thus, vipaaka.
      1: vipaaka will not come to (touch) the person who 2.does not commit kamma.
      (touch, makes feel, commit kamma)
      3. But then will touch (vipaaka will touch), 4 the one who touches (who
      commits kamma)
      5 Therefore it touches the one (vipaaka touches), 6 who touches (who commits
      kamma).
      First part of your Q. may also be solved now.
      Nina.
    • Ole Holten Pind
      Hi Nina, These are grammatically and semantically difficult verses. If I manage to find a solution to the problem they constitute, I shall write you right
      Message 2 of 10 , Aug 1, 2005
        Hi Nina,

        These are grammatically and semantically difficult verses. If I manage to
        find a solution to the problem they constitute, I shall write you right
        away.

        Ole holten pind

        -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
        Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Nina van
        Gorkom
        Sendt: 1. august 2005 19:56
        Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
        Emne: Re: [Pali] Stanz of SN 1.3.1

        Hi Yifer,
        op 31-07-2005 14:46 schreef yifertw op yifertw@...:
        > The first verse of SN 1.3.1 is:
        > Naaphusanta.m phusati ca, phusanta~nca tato phuse;
        > tasmaa phusanta.m phusati, appadu.t.thapadosinan.
        > Ven. Bodhi's translation is:
        > [It does not touch one who does not touch,
        > But then will touch the one who touches.
        > Therefore it touches the one who touches,
        > The one who wrongs an innocent man.]

        > My questions are:
        > 1. There are two "it" in this verse, what does it stand for?
        > Does it stand for "kamma" or these to sentence just to
        > convince readers not to act that way?
        > 2. There are 6 "touch" in this verse, what does it stand for
        > respectively?
        -----
        PTS footnote: two meanings of touch, an active one (performing kamma) and a
        passive one: receiving the result of kamma, thus, vipaaka.
        1: vipaaka will not come to (touch) the person who 2.does not commit kamma.
        (touch, makes feel, commit kamma)
        3. But then will touch (vipaaka will touch), 4 the one who touches (who
        commits kamma)
        5 Therefore it touches the one (vipaaka touches), 6 who touches (who commits
        kamma).
        First part of your Q. may also be solved now.
        Nina.



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      • yifertw
        Dear Nina, Thanks! It is very clear and helpful from your explanation. Best regards, Yifer
        Message 3 of 10 , Aug 1, 2005
          Dear Nina,
          Thanks!
          It is very clear and helpful from your explanation.

          Best regards,
          Yifer
        • Ole Holten Pind
          The it refers to paapam evil action of the next verse. Phusati occurs in a similar context with paapam as subject at It IV 10 verse four: tam eva paapa.m
          Message 4 of 10 , Aug 2, 2005
            The "it" refers to paapam "evil action" of the next verse.
            Phusati occurs in a similar context with paapam as subject at It IV 10 verse
            four: tam eva paapa.m phusse/ati.

            Best,
            Ole Pind

            -----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
            Fra: Pali@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Pali@yahoogroups.com] På vegne af Nina van
            Gorkom
            Sendt: 1. august 2005 19:56
            Til: Pali@yahoogroups.com
            Emne: Re: [Pali] Stanz of SN 1.3.1

            Hi Yifer,
            op 31-07-2005 14:46 schreef yifertw op yifertw@...:
            > The first verse of SN 1.3.1 is:
            > Naaphusanta.m phusati ca, phusanta~nca tato phuse;
            > tasmaa phusanta.m phusati, appadu.t.thapadosinan.
            > Ven. Bodhi's translation is:
            > [It does not touch one who does not touch,
            > But then will touch the one who touches.
            > Therefore it touches the one who touches,
            > The one who wrongs an innocent man.]

            > My questions are:
            > 1. There are two "it" in this verse, what does it stand for?
            > Does it stand for "kamma" or these to sentence just to
            > convince readers not to act that way?
            > 2. There are 6 "touch" in this verse, what does it stand for
            > respectively?
            -----
            PTS footnote: two meanings of touch, an active one (performing kamma) and a
            passive one: receiving the result of kamma, thus, vipaaka.
            1: vipaaka will not come to (touch) the person who 2.does not commit kamma.
            (touch, makes feel, commit kamma)
            3. But then will touch (vipaaka will touch), 4 the one who touches (who
            commits kamma)
            5 Therefore it touches the one (vipaaka touches), 6 who touches (who commits
            kamma).
            First part of your Q. may also be solved now.
            Nina.



            - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
            [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
            [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
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          • Sitala (Zorigto)
            Dear Nina van Gorkom Here are our trying of analysing the verse. ... It (the object) does not touch (give effect/wavering) one who does not touch (who takes
            Message 5 of 10 , Aug 2, 2005
              Dear Nina van Gorkom
              Here are our trying of analysing the verse.

              The first verse of SN 1.3.1 is:
              > Naaphusanta.m phusati ca, phusanta~nca tato phuse;
              > tasmaa phusanta.m phusati, appadu.t.thapadosinan.
              > Ven. Bodhi's translation is:
              > [It does not touch one who does not touch,
              It (the object) does not touch (give effect/wavering)
              one who does not touch (who takes object as it is
              without craving/clinging)
              > But then will touch the one who touches.
              But then will touch (gives effect/wavering) the one
              who touches (who is not taking an object as it is,
              takes with craving/clinging)
              > Therefore it touches the one who touches,
              Therefore it (the object) touches (gives rise to
              wavering/suffering in) the one who touches (who does
              take an object with craving/clinging)
              > The one who wrongs an innocent man.
              The one (an object) wrongs (ruins) an innocent man
              (unprotected from desires man).

              Could this be possible meaning of this text? We tried
              to analyse it according to the position of Phassa -
              cakkhupasadassa phasso, etc., (as in the link of Law
              of Dependent Originations) contact based on the
              eye-basement, and accordingly eye-object will take
              place of "It". And so on, for all objects.
              In the last sentence, "the one" might be the object
              again, not a person, for it says that it
              wrongs/harms/ruins/distructs "an innocent man", in
              here We used unprotected man + from desires, for only
              a man who is not guarding his sense-faculties will
              fail to protect oneself from desires/defilements to
              arrise.

              The questions you raised will remain partly not
              answered, but what we think, is : "it"s stand for
              something that causes an action of touching. Therefore
              we assume it to be an object of contemplation. "The
              one" in the last sentence is assumed as in explanation
              above.
              If We are wrong, waiting for corrections.





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            • Nina van Gorkom
              Hi Ole, Thanks. Please do so, Nina
              Message 6 of 10 , Aug 2, 2005
                Hi Ole,
                Thanks. Please do so,
                Nina
                op 01-08-2005 22:10 schreef Ole Holten Pind op oleholtenpind@...:
                >
                > These are grammatically and semantically difficult verses. If I manage to
                > find a solution to the problem they constitute, I shall write you right
                > away.
                >
              • yifertw
                Dear Nina: As I am reading SN Sagathavagga against Chinese SA with Ven. Bodhi s translation, I found appadu.t.thapadosinan of Stanza SN 1.3.1 had been
                Message 7 of 10 , Aug 2, 2005
                  Dear Nina:
                  As I am reading SN Sagathavagga against Chinese SA with Ven.
                  Bodhi's translation, I found "appadu.t.thapadosinan" of Stanza
                  SN 1.3.1 had been translated into Chinese as "Not offending against
                  others will not receive hatred from the others". This translation
                  had been done at the year of A.C. 443. It sounds the original
                  translator (Ven. Gunabhadra) treated "appadu.t.tha" as "not offending
                  against" and "dosa" as "hatred".
                  Could you help me to offer the grammatical analysis
                  of "appadu.t.thapadosinan"?
                  Yifer

                  > Hi Yifer,
                  > op 31-07-2005 14:46 schreef yifertw op yifertw@y...:
                  > > The first verse of SN 1.3.1 is:
                  > > Naaphusanta.m phusati ca, phusanta~nca tato phuse;
                  > > tasmaa phusanta.m phusati, appadu.t.thapadosinan.
                  > > Ven. Bodhi's translation is:
                  > > [It does not touch one who does not touch,
                  > > But then will touch the one who touches.
                  > > Therefore it touches the one who touches,
                  > > The one who wrongs an innocent man.]
                  >
                  > > My questions are:
                  > > 1. There are two "it" in this verse, what does it stand for?
                  > > Does it stand for "kamma" or these to sentence just to
                  > > convince readers not to act that way?
                  > > 2. There are 6 "touch" in this verse, what does it stand for
                  > > respectively?
                  > -----
                  > PTS footnote: two meanings of touch, an active one (performing
                  kamma) and a
                  > passive one: receiving the result of kamma, thus, vipaaka.
                  > 1: vipaaka will not come to (touch) the person who 2.does not
                  commit kamma.
                  > (touch, makes feel, commit kamma)
                  > 3. But then will touch (vipaaka will touch), 4 the one who touches
                  (who
                  > commits kamma)
                  > 5 Therefore it touches the one (vipaaka touches), 6 who touches
                  (who commits
                  > kamma).
                  > First part of your Q. may also be solved now.
                  > Nina.
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Dear Sitala, Yifer, Ole. thank you, Sitala. Let us look at what Ole said. See below. ... Ole: The it refers to paapam evil action of the next verse.
                  Message 8 of 10 , Aug 3, 2005
                    Dear Sitala, Yifer, Ole.
                    thank you, Sitala.
                    Let us look at what Ole said.
                    See below.
                    op 02-08-2005 17:55 schreef Sitala (Zorigto) op sitalatwo@...:
                    > The first verse of SN 1.3.1 is:
                    >> Naaphusanta.m phusati ca, phusanta~nca tato phuse;
                    >> tasmaa phusanta.m phusati, appadu.t.thapadosinan.

                    >> Ven. Bodhi's translation is:
                    >> [It does not touch one who does not touch,
                    > It (the object) does not touch (give effect/wavering)
                    > one who does not touch (who takes object as it is
                    > without craving/clinging)
                    >> But then will touch the one who touches.
                    > But then will touch (gives effect/wavering) the one
                    > who touches (who is not taking an object as it is,
                    > takes with craving/clinging)
                    >> Therefore it touches the one who touches,
                    > Therefore it (the object) touches (gives rise to
                    > wavering/suffering in) the one who touches (who does
                    > take an object with craving/clinging)
                    >> The one who wrongs an innocent man.
                    > The one (an object) wrongs (ruins) an innocent man
                    > (unprotected from desires man).
                    >
                    > Could this be possible meaning of this text? We tried
                    > to analyse it according to the position of Phassa -
                    > cakkhupasadassa phasso, etc., (as in the link of Law
                    > of Dependent Originations) contact based on the
                    > eye-basement, and accordingly eye-object will take
                    > place of "It". And so on, for all objects.
                    > In the last sentence, "the one" might be the object
                    > again, not a person, for it says that it
                    > wrongs/harms/ruins/distructs "an innocent man", in
                    > here We used unprotected man + from desires, for only
                    > a man who is not guarding his sense-faculties will
                    > fail to protect oneself from desires/defilements to
                    > arrise.
                    >
                    > The questions you raised will remain partly not
                    > answered, but what we think, is : "it"s stand for
                    > something that causes an action of touching. Therefore
                    > we assume it to be an object of contemplation. "The
                    > one" in the last sentence is assumed as in explanation
                    > above.
                    > If We are wrong, waiting for corrections.
                    >------
                    Ole: The "it" refers to paapam "evil action" of the next verse.
                    Phusati occurs in a similar context with paapam as subject at It IV 10 verse
                    four: tam eva paapa.m phusse/ati.
                    ------
                    Nina: I followed the Thai and Commentary: Vipaaka will not touch the person
                    who does not touch kamma (performs kamma), etc.
                    It seems to me that this sutta deals with kamma and vipaaka.
                    Nina.
                  • Nina van Gorkom
                    Dear Yifer, ... N: padussati: offend against. pp: padu.t.tha padosin: abusing. appadu.t.thapadosinan: the person who harms an innocent person. Here: an arahat,
                    Message 9 of 10 , Aug 3, 2005
                      Dear Yifer,
                      op 03-08-2005 02:00 schreef yifertw op yifertw@...:

                      > Dear Nina:
                      > As I am reading SN Sagathavagga against Chinese SA with Ven.
                      > Bodhi's translation, I found "appadu.t.thapadosinan" of Stanza
                      > SN 1.3.1 had been translated into Chinese as "Not offending against
                      > others will not receive hatred from the others". This translation
                      > had been done at the year of A.C. 443. It sounds the original
                      > translator (Ven. Gunabhadra) treated "appadu.t.tha" as "not offending
                      > against" and "dosa" as "hatred".
                      > Could you help me to offer the grammatical analysis
                      > of "appadu.t.thapadosinan"?
                      ---
                      N: padussati: offend against. pp: padu.t.tha
                      padosin: abusing.
                      appadu.t.thapadosinan: the person who harms an innocent person. Here: an
                      arahat, according to the Co. The Co states that this is the law of kamma and
                      vipaaka. He may be reborn in one of the four unhappy planes.
                      See the last stanza of this sutta. This is very clear. The evil deed returns
                      to the wicked one , like fine dust thrown against the wind.
                      Nina.
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