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Path of Freedom/Vimuttimagga

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  • nyanatusita bhikkhu
    Hello, Is there anyone in this group who knows Chinese and is interested to help revising the translation of the Vimuttimagga called Path of Freedom? The Path
    Message 1 of 4 , Jul 29, 2005
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      Hello,

      Is there anyone in this group who knows Chinese and is interested to help
      revising the translation of the Vimuttimagga called Path of Freedom?
      The Path of Freedom is going to be republished by the Buddhist Publication
      Society in Sri Lanka (of which I am the editor at the moment) and it was
      suggested to me that there might be members of this group who know Chinese
      and are able to help. The translation was made in the 1930s by a team of two
      Sinhalese scholars and one Japanese scholar and I was told that quite a bit
      can be improved on the translation.
      Please let me know if you have found mistakes in the translation and can
      suggest a better translation.
      Mettaya,
      Bh. Nyanatusita

      Kandy
      Sri Lanka


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • "Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko (Дмитро Ол
      Bhante Nyanatusita, Yes, I am interested to help in making a better translation of Vimuttimagga. Although I don t know Chinese, I have worked with Chinese
      Message 2 of 4 , Jul 31, 2005
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        Bhante Nyanatusita,

        Yes, I am interested to help in making a better translation of Vimuttimagga.

        Although I don't know Chinese, I have worked with Chinese text,
        consistently replacing Chinese terms with Pali equivalents, and
        compiling a Chinese-pali glossary.

        I have also done similar work with Tibetan translation of
        Samskrta-asamskrta-Vini"scaya by Da"sabala"sriimitra, which contains
        chapters 10,11,12 of Vimuttimagga. (See the relevant article by Peter
        Skilling in Buddhist Studies Review, Vol. 4, No.1, 1987).

        I can share the results of my work.

        Several scholars have suggested improvements in the translation of
        Vimuttimagga in following works:

        Vimuktimarga dhutanuga-nirdesa edited in Tibetan and translated into
        English by P.V.Bapat, Delhi University Buddhist Studies 1, 1964

        P.V.Bapat, Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga, a comparative study. Poona 1937

        Vimuttimagga, edited by Galkatiyagama Siri Ratnajoti and Karalliyadde
        Siri Ratnapala. Colombo 1963. Reviewed by Purusottama Visvanath Bapat in
        Journal of the Vidyalankara University of Ceylon 1, 1972, 172-190

        Toshiichi Endo, "The Asgiriya manuscript of the Pali Vimuttimagga" an
        inquiry into its authenticity", Kalyani. Journal of Humanities and
        Social Sciences of the University of Kelaniya 1, 1983, 100-108

        Peter Skilling, "Vimuttimagga and Abhayagiri: the form-aggregate
        according to the Samskrtasmkrtaviniscaya", JPTS 20, 1994, 171-210

        Also see full bibliography at
        http://faculty.washington.edu/kpotter/ckeyt/txt.html , number 123

        Peter Skilling wrote to me that the comparison of the Tibetan texts
        (only parts available) and the Chinese show that the English translation
        is often inaccurate, and that the Pali terms inserted in parentheses are
        not always correct. He thinks that "the only solution is a new English
        translation from the Chinese by someone who is steeped in Sanskrit and
        Pali, and also knows Tibetan to compare the excellent Tibetan excerpts.
        To render terms correctly one needs a profound knowledge of Abhidharma,
        including Sarvastivadin, and research tools such as the trilingual (Skt,
        Tibetan, Ch) glossaries of Abhidharmakosa and Yogacarabhumi, etc.,
        produced in Japan in recent years, plus a deep knowledge of the Pali
        Abhidhamma tradition, more or less from reading through the whole.
        For example, where the English translation has the unattested
        khanda-, ayatana-, dhatu-upaya, the Tibetan has mkhas pa = kaushalya.
        Lexicons based on the comparison of translations with Sanskrit texts
        show that while the Chinese character in question often translates
        upaya, it is also attested for kushala, kaushalya, Pali kosalla."

        As for me, I hope to see the new translation with more comrehensive
        reconstruction of Pali texts and passages. Some of the key Pali terms
        like 'nimitta' are habitually wrongly translated in English. However
        with Pali terms available the reader has a chance to reconstruct the
        meaning.

        In Sri Lanka you can contact Toshiichi Endo from Postgraduate Institute
        of Pali and Buddhist Studies, University of Kelaniya, who has studied
        Vimuttimagga and related works.

        Metta, Dmytro

        http://dhamma.ru/sadhu/
      • nyanatusita
        Dear Dmytro, Thank you very much for your message. I am happy that there is so much interest in my suggestion regarding improving the Vimuttimagga. Most of the
        Message 3 of 4 , Aug 1 12:03 PM
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          Dear Dmytro,

          Thank you very much for your message. I am happy that there is so much
          interest in my suggestion regarding improving the Vimuttimagga.
          Most of the articles on the Vimuttimagga that you list I have been
          aware of and/or read.
          You can definitely help with the Pali reconstruction and giving other
          advice This might be better after Chinese scholars have gone through
          it first.
          Regarding making a completely new translation: Who would be willing
          and capable to undertake such a task in accordance with the great
          standards Dr Skilling puts forth? Dr Skilling does not have the time
          himself...
          Maybe it is better to update and improve the existing translation for
          the time being. I already found one capable Chinese scholar who is
          keen to help. If we can get several scholars, you included, to work on
          it we might come to something which is maybe not perfect, but still
          much better than what we have now. Some could focus on specific parts,
          for example comparing the English with the Tibetan translation, etc.
          I shall contact Toshiichi Endo too and ask him what he thinks about
          this project.
          I will be back with more on this later.
          Mettaya,
          Bh. Nyanatusita




          In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko (äÍÉÔÒÏ ïÌÅËÓ¦ÊÏ×ÉÞ
          ¶×ÁÈÎÅÎËÏ)" <nibbanka@b...> wrote:
          > Bhante Nyanatusita,
          >
          > Yes, I am interested to help in making a better translation of
          Vimuttimagga.
          >
          > Although I don't know Chinese, I have worked with Chinese text,
          > consistently replacing Chinese terms with Pali equivalents, and
          > compiling a Chinese-pali glossary.
          >
          > I have also done similar work with Tibetan translation of
          > Samskrta-asamskrta-Vini"scaya by Da"sabala"sriimitra, which contains
          > chapters 10,11,12 of Vimuttimagga. (See the relevant article by Peter
          > Skilling in Buddhist Studies Review, Vol. 4, No.1, 1987).
          >
          > I can share the results of my work.
          >
          > Several scholars have suggested improvements in the translation of
          > Vimuttimagga in following works:
          >
          > Vimuktimarga dhutanuga-nirdesa edited in Tibetan and translated into
          > English by P.V.Bapat, Delhi University Buddhist Studies 1, 1964
          >
          > P.V.Bapat, Vimuttimagga and Visuddhimagga, a comparative study.
          Poona 1937
          >
          > Vimuttimagga, edited by Galkatiyagama Siri Ratnajoti and Karalliyadde
          > Siri Ratnapala. Colombo 1963. Reviewed by Purusottama Visvanath
          Bapat in
          > Journal of the Vidyalankara University of Ceylon 1, 1972, 172-190
          >
          > Toshiichi Endo, "The Asgiriya manuscript of the Pali Vimuttimagga" an
          > inquiry into its authenticity", Kalyani. Journal of Humanities and
          > Social Sciences of the University of Kelaniya 1, 1983, 100-108
          >
          > Peter Skilling, "Vimuttimagga and Abhayagiri: the form-aggregate
          > according to the Samskrtasmkrtaviniscaya", JPTS 20, 1994, 171-210
          >
          > Also see full bibliography at
          > http://faculty.washington.edu/kpotter/ckeyt/txt.html , number 123
          >
          > Peter Skilling wrote to me that the comparison of the Tibetan texts
          > (only parts available) and the Chinese show that the English
          translation
          > is often inaccurate, and that the Pali terms inserted in parentheses
          are
          > not always correct. He thinks that "the only solution is a new English
          > translation from the Chinese by someone who is steeped in Sanskrit and
          > Pali, and also knows Tibetan to compare the excellent Tibetan excerpts.
          > To render terms correctly one needs a profound knowledge of Abhidharma,
          > including Sarvastivadin, and research tools such as the trilingual
          (Skt,
          > Tibetan, Ch) glossaries of Abhidharmakosa and Yogacarabhumi, etc.,
          > produced in Japan in recent years, plus a deep knowledge of the Pali
          > Abhidhamma tradition, more or less from reading through the whole.
          > For example, where the English translation has the unattested
          > khanda-, ayatana-, dhatu-upaya, the Tibetan has mkhas pa = kaushalya.
          > Lexicons based on the comparison of translations with Sanskrit texts
          > show that while the Chinese character in question often translates
          > upaya, it is also attested for kushala, kaushalya, Pali kosalla."
          >
          > As for me, I hope to see the new translation with more comrehensive
          > reconstruction of Pali texts and passages. Some of the key Pali terms
          > like 'nimitta' are habitually wrongly translated in English. However
          > with Pali terms available the reader has a chance to reconstruct the
          > meaning.
          >
          > In Sri Lanka you can contact Toshiichi Endo from Postgraduate Institute
          > of Pali and Buddhist Studies, University of Kelaniya, who has studied
          > Vimuttimagga and related works.
          >
          > Metta, Dmytro
          >
          > http://dhamma.ru/sadhu/
        • "Dmytro O. Ivakhnenko (Дмитро Ол
          Bhante Nyanatusita, ... Translating from Chinese without Pali reconstruction is pretty much guesswork. That s why Venerables Soma Thera, Kheminda Thera and
          Message 4 of 4 , Aug 2 12:18 PM
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            Bhante Nyanatusita,

            > You can definitely help with the Pali reconstruction and giving other
            > advice This might be better after Chinese scholars have gone through
            > it first.

            Translating from Chinese without Pali reconstruction is pretty much
            guesswork. That's why Venerables Soma Thera, Kheminda Thera and N.R.M.
            Ehara reconstructed the key Pali terms, and their English translation is
            often based not on Chinese text, but on Pali parallels. Yet they had to
            constantly keep in mind the Pali correspondences they discovered, and
            sometimes they evidently forgot them.

            Nowadays the electronic texts provide the possibility of consistent
            replacement of terms with their Pali correspondences throughout the
            text. Such processed text is ready for high quality translation.

            So the partially reconstructed texts may be of use to scholars:

            Chinese text with key Pali terms:
            http://dhamma.ru/in/jieto.zip

            Pali-Chinese glossary:
            http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/dictionaries/Pali_Chinese.zip

            Tibetan Samskrta-asamskrta-Vini"scaya with Pali terms (full text):
            http://dhamma.ru/in/asamskrta.zip

            Selected chapters with extensive citations from Vimuttimagga:
            http://dhamma.ru/in/samskrta.zip

            Tibetan-Pali glossary:
            http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/dictionaries/Tibetan_Pali.zip

            > Maybe it is better to update and improve the existing translation for
            > the time being.

            I envision it as an ongoing project. The intermediate results can be
            published in paper or electronic form, and gradually brought to further
            perfection. We can establish a kind of collaborative webspace.

            Mettaya,
            Dmytro
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