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Re: [Pali] Gair Lessons 3 & 4

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  • John Kelly
    Dear Dimitry, Over 2 months ago you sent me a very thoughtful and helpful reply to the translations I had posted to this list of the exercises from chapters 3
    Message 1 of 3 , May 27 2:50 PM
      Dear Dimitry,
      Over 2 months ago you sent me a very thoughtful and
      helpful reply to the translations I had posted to this
      list of the exercises from chapters 3 and 4 in the
      Gair Pali Reader. I have finally gotten around to
      putting hands to keyboard to respond to your

      Most of your ideas for improving my translation
      attempt, I thought were improvements and changed my
      version; some, I thought were fine alternatives, but
      let my version stand; and just one or two I disagreed

      Your original email is below with my comments
      interspersed. Where I haven�t commented on one of
      your suggestions means that I felt it belonged to the
      middle category � either interpretation seeming quite

      >>Lesson 3, Section 1:
      >>- In the second question there is no 'satta', so the
      translation may
      >>be: If nobody transmigrates ... - OK

      >>- 'pa.tisandahati' - 'reincarnates'?

      >>- 'opamma' is not exactly an 'example' - maybe
      'comparison', 'analogy',
      >>'parralel' or 'metaphor'?
      Agreed � �simile� is a good translation too.

      >>- 'puriso' is skipped;
      �kocadeva puriso� can be translated by �someone� or
      �some person�.

      >>- 'ta.m' refers to the asked question, literally
      'this' in 'how do you
      >>consider this', and not 'so'.
      See my next comment.
      >>- 'ma~n~nati' is rather 'considers', 'deems', not an
      �ta.m ki.m mannasi� is literally �How do you consider
      this�, but in more fluent English would be �So what do
      you think?�.

      >>- 'du.t.tho' - rather 'malicious', 'vicious'? - OK

      >>- 'vi~n~nuugarahitaa' - 'disapproved by the wise';
      >>- 'akusala.m' - 'unskillfulness', 'unskillful
      >>- 'kusala.m' - 'skillfulness', 'skillful qualities';
      >>Lesson 3, Section 2:
      >>- 'adu.t.tho' - 'non-vicious' or 'amiable'; - OK

      >>- 'vijjaa' - 'craft', 'education';
      >>- 'vijjaagato' - 'educated';

      >>- 'samattaa samaadinnaa' - 'brought to perfection
      and undertaken';
      Yes � better than my original choice.

      >>- 'Naaha.m samanupassaami...' - 'I don't see...';

      >>- 'pi' refers rather to 'ekadhamma', so it's better
      to drop 'indeed'
      >>in English;

      >>- 'eva.m abhaavita.m akammaniya.m hoti' - 'is so
      unworkable when
      Thank you! � I completely missed the mark on my

      >>- 'adhivaaha' - 'bringing'; -- OK

      >>- 'association with unpleasant is suffering,
      separation from pleasant
      >> is suffering, not getting what one desires is
      >>- 'lakkha.na' - 'nature';
      �characteristic� or �distinguishing mark� are common
      translations of �lakkha.na� too.

      >>- 'could see a person coming from the east, could
      see a person coming
      >>from the south, could see a person coming from the
      west, and could see
      >>a person coming from the north';
      >>- 'discriminate with consciousness an idea he
      >>with the intellect'; - OK

      >>- 'Kallo'si' - 'Clever you are'; - OK

      >>Lesson 4, Section 1:
      >>- 'there are four defilements of Brahmins and
      ascetics'. Your
      >>translation 'Brahmin recluses' is also very
      interesting, can you
      >>please substantiate it, maybe I'm mistaken?
      No, I�m mistaken not you. Compound words can be many
      things, sometimes adjectival, sometimes joined as
      �and�, among others. I just made an interpretation
      that was wrong. Having read more of the canon, it�s
      now clear to me that �and� is meant here.

      >>- 'na bhaasanti na virocanti' - 'don't glitter,
      sparkle, glare, gleam,
      >>beam, radiate', English is so rich; - It certainly

      >>- 'that drink wine and liquor, and don't abstain
      from drinking'; - OK

      >>- 'ignorantly appropriate gold and silver'; - OK

      >>- 'sukha.m' - 'happiness, ease, well-being'; - OK

      >>- 'kalyaa.na' - 'virtuous'; - OK

      >>- 'Lazy man chants much the scriptures, but does not
      implement them'; - OK

      >>- 'Pleasure gives birth to sorrow, pleasure gives
      birth to fear;
      >>For one who is freed from pleasure, there is no
      sorrow, whence is
      >>Lesson 4, Section 2:
      >>- 'Here, monks, in such an assembly monks are
      agitated, arrogant,
      >>fickle, garrulous, loose-talking � unmindful,
      uncollected, with
      >>wandering minds, and unbridled (unrestrained)
      faculties.' - OK

      >>- 'they are illustrious with unrighteous actions,
      and not with
      >>righteous actions'; - OK

      >>- Having completely understood this, the wise
      >>Rejoice in diligence, delighting in the sphere of
      the nobles. - OK

      >>- For irrigators direct water, fletchers fashion
      >>Carpenters shape wood, and the wise tame themselves.

      >>- Just as a solid rock, which is not blown off by
      the wind,
      >>The wise are not moved by blame or praise. - OK

      >>- Just as a deep and clear lake, which is not
      stirred up,
      >>The wise, having heard the teachings, are serene. -

      >>- 'pabbajita' - 'one who has gone forth',
      'wanderer'; - OK

      >>- 'saamisa.m sukha.m' - 'happiness of the flesh';
      >>- 'niramisa.m sukha.m' - 'happiness not of the
      OK � also �material happiness� and �spiritual

      >>- 'appa.tivattiya.m' - 'irreversible'; - OK

      >>- 'araha.m' - 'Worthy'; - OK

      >>- 'sama.na' - 'ascetic'. � OK

      Thanks again for your help.
      I will be posting shortly my answers to chapter 5, so
      I will look forward to responses from you and others.


      --- "������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)"
      <sangha@...> wrote:
      > Dear John,
      > Thank you for your good work. I have finished the
      > translation and am
      > correcting errors and making a dictionary, so your
      > help is very
      > timely.
      > Soon I will place on my site a new version of
      > translated textbook in
      > .....

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