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Re: The dismission of Buddhism in India

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  • yifertw
    Dear Piya, During the panel discussions, someone hi-lights three issues which speeding up the dismission of Buddhim in India. 1. Too many transplant of gods,
    Message 1 of 16 , Jul 3, 2005
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      Dear Piya,
      During the panel discussions, someone hi-lights three issues which
      speeding up the dismission of Buddhim in India.
      1. Too many transplant of gods, stories and ceremony from Brahman
      Religion to Buddhism.
      2. Major Buddhist monasteries supported by royal families instead of
      popular people. Monks and nuns evolved to be scholars instead of
      teachers of Dhamma.
      3. Buddhism is easier to be an international religion, so Sangha and
      lay-deciples have ways to escape into foreign countries. Jains is more
      or less like domestic religion. Foreign countries can not accept Jains'
      Doctrine due to their own culture.

      Do you agree upon above-stated possibilities.
      Do item 1, 2 & 3 also have the same impact to Jains?

      Yifer
      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan <libris@s...> wrote:
      > If you read this paper, make special note of the sramonapasaka
      (s'rama,na + upaasaka), who effectively are lay teachers who quietly
      went on teaching the Jain Dharma while the> Muslims ravage the country
      killing off Buddhism.
      > The Sramanopasaka (besides the Jain monks) help preserve Jainism in
      India up to this> day (unlike Buddhism which disappeared).
      >
      > Sukhi
      >
      > Piya
    • Kumaara Bhikkhu
      Hmm... that does seem very probable. I ve the impression that in places where Buddhism has been around for a long time, the laity tend to think that only
      Message 2 of 16 , Jul 3, 2005
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        Hmm... that does seem very probable.

        I've the impression that in places where Buddhism has been around for a long time, the laity tend to think that only monks should do the teaching. This is probably partly due to the emphasis given by monks themselves to the laity that their work is to support the monks' material needs, thereby marginalise their engagement in other higher practices, learning and teaching. In a place where this has become accepted by the majority, when the sangha goes, Buddhism goes.

        I wonder why this was not the case for Jainism?

        Anyhow, this tells the importance of having lay people who are adequately well versed in the Dhamma. And we do have quite a number here in this group.

        rejoicing,
        kb

        At 06:38 PM 03-07-05, Piya Tan wrote:
        >If you read this paper, make special note of the sramonapasaka (s'rama,na + upaasaka),
        >who effectively are lay teachers who quietly went on teaching the Jain Dharma while the
        >Muslims ravage the country killing off Buddhism.
        >
        >The Sramanopasaka (besides the Jain monks) help preserve Jainism in India up to this
        >day (unlike Buddhism which disappeared).
        >
        >Sukhi
        >
        >Piya
        >
        >Bankei wrote:
        >
        >> There is one paper that may be of interest in _Studies in the History
        >> of Buddhism_ (Delhi: B.R. Publishing Corporation), edited by A.K.
        >> Narain:
        >> Jaini, Padmanabh S.
        >> 1980 "The disappearance of Buddhism and the survival of Jainism: a
        >> study in contrast,"
        >>
        >> It has been some years since I read this, and cannot remember the
        >> details unfortunately.
        >>
        >> Regards
        >>
        >> Terry
        >>
        >> On 7/2/05, yifertw <yifertw@...> wrote:
        >> > Dear Bhante and Dhamma friends,
        >> > "Why Jainism and Hinduism survived after Muslim's invasion into
        >> > nothern India, Buddhism, is superior than Jainism and Brahmans-Worship
        >> > as described inside Buddhist society and Tipitaka, faced a serious
        >> > dismission in India Continents?"
        >> > This question is hi-lighted in a Panel discussion here, many answers
        >> > delivered and not even close to an acceptable explanation. One of the
        >> > scholars in this Panel discussion pointed out that the invasion into
        >> > southern India is quite late, but the dismission of Buddhism still
        >> > happened in that area.
        >> > I assumed that senior members of Pali group may suggest a book list
        >> > to read, it is fine. In addition to booklist, can someone to put a
        >> > concise and precise comments which can be described in a single e-mail?
        >> >
        >> > Dear Yong Peng,
        >> > This topic maybe falls out of the track again after the Curfew
        >> > period. The reason why I do not want to raise this issue somewhere
        >> > else for discussions, is " I do want to hear comments from Pali group".
        >> > I have had enough of opinions from Mahayana group already.
        >> > Yifer
      • Piya Tan
        Dear Yifer. ... The rise of Tantric Buddhism was like a double-edged sword: it answered the challenges of Brahmanism/Hinduism, esp Saivism, but at the same
        Message 3 of 16 , Jul 3, 2005
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          Dear Yifer.

          >   1. Too many transplant of gods, stories and ceremony from Brahman
          > Religion to Buddhism.

          The rise of Tantric Buddhism was like a double-edged sword: it answered the
          challenges of Brahmanism/Hinduism, esp Saivism, but at the same time, in copying the
          adversary, one in the end becomes the adversary. In due course, there is very little
          significant difference between the two systems. This is of course an over-simplified
          answer as things are more complicated.

          Understandably an average Indian today has little difficulty in accepting "Buddhism"
          as it is to them an integral part of Hinduism--in many ways, they are right!

          For this reason, there is a vital move amongst thinking Buddhists back to their
          roots: like learning Pali and the Pali texts. What some of us are trying to do here
          is to see the woods hidden away by the trees planted in Sri Lanka (see for example
          Ajahn Sujato's "History of Mindfulness"). Much scholastic additions have been made to
          the Suttas (not to mention the Commentaries) in Sri Lanka.

          Early Buddhism as mind-training is a simple and effective method. But nationalism,
          simony, materialism, sense-indulgence, relic-worship, worship of the future Buddha,
          etc have taken over much of what we call Buddhism today. Last week, someone from a
          Thai temple here to told me that Buddhists should not sing hymns because they do not
          do that in Thailand. Although I do not advocate any singing in the uposatha hall, I
          think the young people should freely express their Buddhist happiness until such time
          there is less dust in their youthful eyes.

          Some scholars say that Buddhism is or should be taken as what "becomes" of it, that
          is, we need to look at Buddhism descriptively. This may well be true of a
          professional scholar (a sociologist, etc), but for a practitioner like myself, I
          prefer the good old vintage. Besides I am enjoying its peace, clarity and beauty
          through the Pali Suttas and meditation (both the forest tradition and the so called
          "Vipassana" method). Scholars need money to live, so they have to stir up the mud so
          that something can be clear. That's how the get paid.

          >   2. Major Buddhist monasteries supported by royal families instead of
          > popular people. Monks and nuns evolved to be scholars instead of
          > teachers of Dhamma.

          This is very true of all institutionalized Buddhism in Sri Lanka, China, Korea and
          Japan, as I found out and spoke about in my lecture series on "History of Buddhism".
          Buddhism in Korea is especially tragic during the Yi dynasty (that is, just before
          the modern period when Christianity made inroads). One of the reasons that
          Christianity was eagerly accepted by the Koreans was that Buddhism was effectively
          put out of the picture by the vengeful Confucians in the Yi court. Confucianism as a
          politico-ethical system could not provide any spiritual solace or answer religious
          needs of the people. The Yi Koreans generally and practically had no Buddhism. People
          like Nevius (the evangelist who first worked in China and then went to Korea), became
          famous for telling the local Christians how to indigenize themselves so that
          Christianity is "Korean". We have to learn about such developments. We need to
          develop the area of Buddhist missiology to understand what happened in Buddhist
          history, which may well tell us what WILL happen.

          Ironically, many are Christians because they do not know (not much anyway) about
          Christian history. Many are Buddhists without know much about Buddhist hsitory
          either. As Santana says: those who forget history are doomed to repeat it. This is
          also inscribed on a plank that hung in the compound of the Jonestown Doomsday cult
          that committed mass suicide.

          >   3. Buddhism is easier to be an international religion, so Sangha and
          > lay-deciples have ways to escape into foreign countries. Jains is more
          > or less like domestic religion. Foreign countries can not accept Jains'
          > Doctrine due to their own culture.

          Buddhism is an international religion, indeed the first world religion, in not being
          rooted in only one social class, or speaking of a chosen people, or even a God idea.
          In this sense, it is apolitical (the God idea is one of power, and is closely
          connected with the politics of a group wishing to dominate another). Jainism survived
          the Muslim onslaught, as pointed out by PS Jaini (whom I knew in Berkeley), because
          they have lay followers too involved in teaching their Dharma.

          >   Do you agree upon above-stated possibilities.
          >   Do item 1, 2 & 3 also have the same impact to Jains?

          I do not know enough about Jainism to answer this last question. There surely are
          others who might be able to help you here.

          I have sent a copy of the relevant section on the decline of Buddhism, directly to
          you email address.

          Hopefully no curfew is violated in this winding and rambling answer which has little
          to do with Pali, except in the semantic sense (Pali also means that which protects).
          We need to speak out for what we love and value.

          Sukhi

          Piya.
        • yifertw
          ... Dear Piya, Thanks for your kindness that you reply as detail as possible to get me out of this puzzle. Lecturers of my teammate take two different
          Message 4 of 16 , Jul 4, 2005
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            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan <libris@s...> wrote:
            > Dear Yifer.
            > We need to speak out for what we love and value.
            > Piya.

            Dear Piya,
            Thanks for your kindness that you reply as detail as possible to
            get me out of this puzzle.
            Lecturers of my teammate take two different approaches.
            1. Every different dhamma is taught by Buddha to aim at people of
            different talent, mindsetting and literal level, we should tolerate
            and accept them as they are brothers or friends of Dhamma group.
            2. We should speak out foe what we love and value. We may be
            wrong, but at least we have to be honest to ourselves. So we should
            speak out that some descriptions and so-called Dhamma, they do not
            reflect or comply to the historical evidence. We should speak out:
            it does not relate to Dhamma(Buddha's teaching), it does not relate
            to Vinaya, it does not relate to Abhidhamma.

            Hmmmmm, actually in real life (Daily life is what I meant), it is
            difficult to find the balance point between this two attitude.
            [.....Sip,....Sip]

            Yifer
          • Gunnar Gällmo
            ... We might compare with how the Catholic church copied the organization of the Roman empire (including some of its titles, such as Pontifex Maximus) - but in
            Message 5 of 16 , Jul 4, 2005
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              --- Piya Tan <libris@...> skrev:

              > The rise of Tantric Buddhism was like a double-edged
              > sword: it answered the
              > challenges of Brahmanism/Hinduism, esp Saivism, but
              > at the same time, in copying the
              > adversary, one in the end becomes the adversary. In
              > due course, there is very little
              > significant difference between the two systems.

              We might compare with how the Catholic church copied
              the organization of the Roman empire (including some
              of its titles, such as Pontifex Maximus) - but in that
              case, the copy survived the original.

              > Early Buddhism as mind-training is a simple and
              > effective method. But nationalism,
              > simony, materialism, sense-indulgence,
              > relic-worship, worship of the future Buddha,
              > etc have taken over much of what we call Buddhism
              > today.

              I think nationalism - and, in Thailand, monarchism -
              are especially dangerous; religion and power make a
              nasty mixture.

              > Hopefully no curfew is violated in this winding and
              > rambling answer which has little
              > to do with Pali, except in the semantic sense (Pali
              > also means that which protects).
              > We need to speak out for what we love and value.
              >

              The curfew was imposed for the period 14-24 of June,
              so I think we are free to ramble a little again.

              Gunnar




              gunnargallmo@...
            • seisen_au
              Hi All ... back to their ... trying to do here ... (see for example ... I would be interested in reading Ajahn Sujato s History of Mindfulness . Is there an
              Message 6 of 16 , Jul 4, 2005
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                Hi All

                --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan <libris@s...> wrote:
                > For this reason, there is a vital move amongst thinking Buddhists
                back to their
                > roots: like learning Pali and the Pali texts. What some of us are
                trying to do here
                > is to see the woods hidden away by the trees planted in Sri Lanka
                (see for example
                > Ajahn Sujato's "History of Mindfulness").

                I would be interested in reading Ajahn Sujato's "History of
                Mindfulness". Is there an online version?

                Thanks
                Steve
              • Bhante Sujato
                dear Steve, ... Thanks for your interest. It s available as a pdf file at www.santiforestmonastery.com. Soon it will also be up at www.bswa.org, with slightly
                Message 7 of 16 , Jul 4, 2005
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                  dear Steve,


                  > I would be interested in reading Ajahn Sujato's "History of
                  > Mindfulness". Is there an online version?
                  >

                  Thanks for your interest. It's available as a pdf file at
                  www.santiforestmonastery.com. Soon it will also be up at www.bswa.org,
                  with slightly more refined formatting.



                  in Dhamma

                  Bhante Sujato
                • Bhante Sujato
                  Dear Ven Kumara and all, Thanks for the notes on this interesting and important discussion: i think there are definitely some lessons to be learned in this
                  Message 8 of 16 , Jul 4, 2005
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                    Dear Ven Kumara and all,


                    Thanks for the notes on this interesting and important discussion: i
                    think there are definitely some lessons to be learned in this
                    history.



                    > I've the impression that in places where Buddhism has been around
                    for a long time, the laity tend to think that only monks should do
                    the teaching. This is probably partly due to the emphasis given by
                    monks themselves to the laity that their work is to support the
                    monks' material needs, thereby marginalise their engagement in other
                    higher practices, learning and teaching. In a place where this has
                    become accepted by the majority, when the sangha goes, Buddhism goes.
                    >
                    > I wonder why this was not the case for Jainism?


                    I think it's for a very simple reason: there's not a huge amount of
                    people who want to rip their hair out by the roots, go naked, not
                    bathe for the rest of their lives, and end up starving themselves to
                    death. So the Jaina monastic Sangha will always be a much smaller
                    proportion of the Jaina population, and there is a corresponding
                    need for a more moderate lay-monastic intermediary
                    (sramanaopasakas), and greater involvement of the laity in teaching
                    and other functions.

                    in Dhamma

                    Bhante Sujato
                  • libris
                    As Ajahn Sujato himself has replied to Stephen, it will soon (or already) be available on the BSWA website: Is that www.bswa.org.au? You might like to try
                    Message 9 of 16 , Jul 5, 2005
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                      As Ajahn Sujato himself has replied to Stephen, it will soon (or already) be available on the BSWA website:

                      Is that www.bswa.org.au?

                      You might like to try www.santiforestmonastery.com, too

                      Sukhi

                      Piya



                      --- seisen_au <seisen_@...> wrote:

                      > Hi All
                      >
                      > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan <libris@s...> wrote:
                      > > For this reason, there is a vital move amongst thinking Buddhists
                      >
                      > back to their
                      > > roots: like learning Pali and the Pali texts. What some of us are
                      >
                      > trying to do here
                      > > is to see the woods hidden away by the trees planted in Sri Lanka
                      >
                      > (see for example
                      > > Ajahn Sujato's "History of Mindfulness").

                      >
                      > I would be interested in reading Ajahn Sujato's "History of
                      > Mindfulness". Is there an online version?
                      >
                      > Thanks
                      > Steve
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                      > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                      > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                      > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                      > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                      > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest
                      > or web only.
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • libris
                      Dear Yifer, Knowing the painful truth or the beautiful truth is one thing. Telling it to others is another: not many are ready for it, or may misunderstand it,
                      Message 10 of 16 , Jul 5, 2005
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                        Dear Yifer,

                        Knowing the painful truth or the beautiful truth is one thing.

                        Telling it to others is another: not many are ready for it, or may misunderstand it, or simply regard it as a threat.

                        The Buddhist spirit is one of open thinking and expression. Sadhu that that we do not stone one another or fatwa one another for differences in opinion.

                        The worst we do is being rude to one another or send them to Coventry.

                        We can also learn a lot why other differ in their opinions. I think people should think why they hold an opinion about something.

                        I try to cut down my pride and stupidity by trying to study all the opinions available about something and then try to think for myself.

                        Sukhi [be happy]

                        Piya



                        --- yifertw <yifertw@...> wrote:

                        > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan <libris@s...> wrote:
                        > > Dear Yifer.
                        > > We need to speak out for what we love and value.
                        > > Piya.
                        >
                        > Dear Piya,
                        > Thanks for your kindness that you reply as detail as possible to
                        > get me out of this puzzle.
                        > Lecturers of my teammate take two different approaches.
                        > 1. Every different dhamma is taught by Buddha to aim at people of
                        >
                        > different talent, mindsetting and literal level, we should tolerate
                        >
                        > and accept them as they are brothers or friends of Dhamma group.
                        > 2. We should speak out foe what we love and value. We may be
                        > wrong, but at least we have to be honest to ourselves. So we should
                        >
                        > speak out that some descriptions and so-called Dhamma, they do not
                        > reflect or comply to the historical evidence. We should speak out:
                        > it does not relate to Dhamma(Buddha's teaching), it does not relate
                        >
                        > to Vinaya, it does not relate to Abhidhamma.
                        >
                        > Hmmmmm, actually in real life (Daily life is what I meant), it is
                        > difficult to find the balance point between this two attitude.
                        > [.....Sip,....Sip]
                        >
                        > Yifer
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                        > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                        > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                        > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                        > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                        > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest
                        > or web only.
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Bankei
                        Bhante Your work sounds very interesting. I have downloaded your book, but am wondering if it has been published anywhere in book form? Regards Terry
                        Message 11 of 16 , Jul 6, 2005
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                          Bhante

                          Your work sounds very interesting. I have downloaded your book, but am
                          wondering if it has been published anywhere in book form?

                          Regards

                          Terry

                          On 7/5/05, Bhante Sujato <sujato@...> wrote:
                          > dear Steve,
                          >
                          >
                          > > I would be interested in reading Ajahn Sujato's "History of
                          > > Mindfulness". Is there an online version?
                          > >
                          >
                          > Thanks for your interest. It's available as a pdf file at
                          > www.santiforestmonastery.com. Soon it will also be up at www.bswa.org,
                          > with slightly more refined formatting.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > in Dhamma
                          >
                          > Bhante Sujato
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                          > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                          > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                          > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                          > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                          > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Bhante Sujato
                          Dear Terry, Thanks for the interest. We are doing the layout now, and hope to publish with the Corporate Body of the Buddha group in Taiwan for free
                          Message 12 of 16 , Jul 11, 2005
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                            Dear Terry,


                            Thanks for the interest. We are doing the layout now, and hope to
                            publish with the 'Corporate Body of the Buddha' group in Taiwan for
                            free distribution.

                            in Dhamma


                            Bhante Sujato



                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Bankei <bankei@g...> wrote:
                            > Bhante
                            >
                            > Your work sounds very interesting. I have downloaded your book,
                            but am
                            > wondering if it has been published anywhere in book form?
                            >
                            > Regards
                            >
                            > Terry
                            >
                            > On 7/5/05, Bhante Sujato <sujato@g...> wrote:
                            > > dear Steve,
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > > I would be interested in reading Ajahn Sujato's "History of
                            > > > Mindfulness". Is there an online version?
                            > > >
                            > >
                            > > Thanks for your interest. It's available as a pdf file at
                            > > www.santiforestmonastery.com. Soon it will also be up at
                            www.bswa.org,
                            > > with slightly more refined formatting.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > in Dhamma
                            > >
                            > > Bhante Sujato
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                            > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                            > > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                            > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                            > > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                            > > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                            digest or web only.
                            > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >
                          • libris
                            Bhante, I hope there would be a limited edition of the unexpurgated version, which I think is the real work rather than the refined one. Limited to
                            Message 13 of 16 , Jul 11, 2005
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                              Bhante,

                              I hope there would be a limited edition of the unexpurgated version, which I think is the real work rather than the "refined" one. Limited to open-minded seekers, that is.

                              The world is more prepared now for such truths than when I was a monk in the Sonaparanta called Malaysia, which I still love, though.

                              Namakkara.m

                              Piya



                              --- Bhante Sujato <sujato@...> wrote:

                              > Dear Terry,
                              >
                              >
                              > Thanks for the interest. We are doing the layout now, and hope to
                              > publish with the 'Corporate Body of the Buddha' group in Taiwan for
                              >
                              > free distribution.
                              >
                              > in Dhamma
                              >
                              >
                              > Bhante Sujato
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Bankei <bankei@g...> wrote:
                              > > Bhante
                              > >
                              > > Your work sounds very interesting. I have downloaded your book,
                              > but am
                              > > wondering if it has been published anywhere in book form?
                              > >
                              > > Regards
                              > >
                              > > Terry
                              > >
                              > > On 7/5/05, Bhante Sujato <sujato@g...> wrote:
                              > > > dear Steve,
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > > I would be interested in reading Ajahn Sujato's "History of
                              > > > > Mindfulness". Is there an online version?
                              > > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > Thanks for your interest. It's available as a pdf file at
                              > > > www.santiforestmonastery.com. Soon it will also be up at
                              > www.bswa.org,
                              > > > with slightly more refined formatting.
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > in Dhamma
                              > > >
                              > > > Bhante Sujato
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                              > > > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                              > > > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                              > > > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                              > > > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                              > > > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily
                              > digest or web only.
                              > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              > > >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                              > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                              > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                              > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                              > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                              > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest
                              > or web only.
                              > Yahoo! Groups Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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