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RE: [Pali] Re: Mahaasatipa.t.thaanasutta.m

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  • Yuttadhammo
    Dear Sir, Thank you, I can understand your point of view and some of the reasons you ... Okay, I ll take your word for it :) Again, I don t think it would be
    Message 1 of 32 , May 1, 2005
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      Dear Sir,

      Thank you, I can understand your point of view and some of the reasons you
      give make sense. Just some musings:


      > For a comprehensive analysis of this word please see the
      > excellent book "The Buddhist Path to Awakening" by the
      > current President of Pali Text Society Rupert Gethin, pp.
      > 59-66. There he gives as well Jataka usage which you quoted.
      > As it often happens with Jatakas, meaning of this word in
      > them is somewhat different from Sutta usage.

      Okay, I'll take your word for it :) Again, I don't think it would be right
      for me to suggest that ekaayana means "the only way", but I still think
      there are some convincing reasons to suggest that the practice in the
      satipatthana sutta is quite comprehensive, not just an aspect.

      > > I would suggest that it is better to leave a broader
      > translation here
      > > than "leading to only one place" or "the direct way to the
      > one". The
      > > word "direct" is not used, and neither is the word "leading". The
      > > words that are included in the compound are "eka=one,
      > certain, only"
      > > and "ayana" = "going (as a noun), way (from "i"=to go)".
      >
      > Thus "going to one (place)".

      or "the one going", if we like.

      > > If we consider only the Satipatthana Sutta, we have the
      > Lord Buddha's
      > > words that the four foundations of mindfulness are at least
      > one way to
      > > Nibbaana, but then we see that "this way" (the eightfold
      > noble path)
      > > is the only way (natth'a~n~na.m).
      >
      > You probably mean Dhammapada 274.

      Yes, MN shows that the Buddha taught satipatthana practice as one way, but
      Dhp shows that the Eightfold noble path is the only way.

      > > So surely Satipatthana practice must also be the only way,
      > and also be
      > > the same way, or else we cannot reconcile the Buddha's words.
      >
      > I see your point, however I won't equalise the Eightfold
      > noble path with
      > Satipatthana practice as a method. For example, in
      > Vera~njaka.n.da (Vin. iii 1.11) it is described how different
      > Buddhas apply quite different methods of Eightfold path.

      Sorry, I can't find this... is this the introduction? I don't see anything
      about this in the Buddha's stay at Vera~nja.

      > The notion of exclusivity, when applied to one particular
      > method, may lead to sectarianism. It is not an only method -
      > for example, some people attained Nibbana after short
      > conversation with Buddha.

      But do they do it after being mindful, or not after being mindful? I
      thought that mindfulness was something accepted by Buddists all around the
      world... if it leads to sectarianism, who would it leave out?

      > In translation "leading to Nibbana and nowhere else" I see
      > optimistic exhortation. Satipatthana itself is an embodiment
      > of multiple alternatives of reaching Nibbana via either of
      > four satipatthanas.

      Again, that might be a good way to translate it. I might opt for something
      ambiguous like "one-way is this path, oh Bhikkhus...."

      > > It seems to be the same path, and this sameness is carried
      > over to the
      > > eightfold noble path by the commentary, as Nina points out:
      > >
      > > Why is the Arousing of Mindfulness intended by the word "way"? Are
      > > there not many other factors of the way, namely, understanding,
      > > thinking, speech, action, livelihood, effort, and concentration,
      > > besides mindfulness? To be sure there are. But all these
      > are implied
      > > when the Arousing of Mindfulness is mentioned, because
      > these factors exist in union with mindfulness.
      >
      > There is indeed a connection. Each sutta, Satipatthana
      > included, is like an aspect of a wonderful gem of Eightfold path.
      >
      > Satipatthana offers unique multidimensional perspective of
      > the Path - four satipatthanas as one dimension, seven
      > bojjhangas as second dimension, varieties of practice as
      > third dimension.
      >
      > However to say that an aspect is a gem would be an exaggeration.
      >
      > With metta, Dmytro

      Or one could say that the Eightfold path is one aspect of Satipatthana
      practice, as it is included in Dhammanupassana... I guess one could easily
      create samadhipatthana practice or viriyapatthana practice, etc. but I think
      at any rate the practice included in the Satipatthana sutta is quite
      comprehensive. It might be helpful to note that these four satipatthana are
      also the five khandhas (sa~n~naa and sa"nkhaara are included under
      dhammanupassana).

      With metta,

      Yuttadhammo
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Ven. Sujato, Ven. Yuttadhammo, Stephen and friends, Bhante, how true! It had never occurred to me that Dhammakaya is related to Chinese Buddhism. But,
      Message 32 of 32 , May 6, 2005
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        Dear Ven. Sujato, Ven. Yuttadhammo, Stephen and friends,

        Bhante, how true! It had never occurred to me that Dhammakaya is
        related to Chinese Buddhism. But, since you mention it, I believe it
        is making reference to the Tri-kaya concept (which isn't of Chinese
        origin) in Mahayana.

        I think they have probably got it wrong. The Dhammakaya (or
        Dharmakaya) is simply the embodiment of truth. It means that the
        enlightenment of all Buddhas are undiscriminatorily equal, regardless
        of time and space. If it insists a 'physical' state of nibbana, it
        should be the Sambhagakaya. The third kaya is the Nirmanakaya. This
        concept is important in Mahayana, and it blends in with the
        Madhyamika's explanation of emptiness.


        metta,
        Yong Peng.

        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Bhante Sujato wrote:

        > > One very large group of "Buddhists" in Thailand has come out
        > > and proclaimed publicly that "Nibbana is Atta."

        It is worth noticing that this group emerged in Thailand as part of a
        movement in Thai culture from the 80's that started to re-acknowledge
        the Chinese roots of Thai culture. Bankok was in fact a Chinese
        trading port. One aspect of this is the adoption of aspects of
        Chinese Buddhism. For example, statues of Kwan Yin are common all
        over Thailand.

        But Dhammakaya has pursued this angle more consciously, claiming
        support for their Dhammakaya idea from Mahayana sutras.
        Unfortunately, few people in Thailand have read the Mahayana sutras,
        so apart from sectarian prejudice, they are unable to respond very
        meaningfully to this aspect of Dhammakaya's arguments.
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