Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Thin Buddhists and fat Buddha?

Expand Messages
  • Gunnar Gällmo
    ... Interesting, especially in comparison to the myth - quite common in the West - that the Buddha was fat. A Pentecostalist preacher in Sweden (though he is
    Message 1 of 16 , Apr 30, 2005
      --- Yuttadhammo <buffer@...> cited:

      > > the THINNEST religious people are Buddhists!

      Interesting, especially in comparison to the myth -
      quite common in the West - that the Buddha was fat. A
      Pentecostalist preacher in Sweden (though he is of
      Norwegian origin - sorry, Kåre!) recently called him,
      in a sermon, "a brown burnt tin can, and an overweight
      one" (_en brunbränd plåtburk, och en överviktig
      sådan_).

      (This saying got lost in the media reports, because he
      was attacking Islam in the same sermon, and promptly
      got a Fatwa...)

      So: does anyone know wherefrom this idea comes? As far
      as I know, South and South East Asian Buddha images
      tend to be quite slim; Chinese ones are sometimes a
      different matter, but do such images represent the
      historical Buddha, Maitreya, or someone else?

      Gunnar

      gunnargallmo@...
    • "Kåre A. Lie"
      ... No need to apologize! Stupidity knows no nationality ... :-) ... His words about Mohammad and the Buddha were in the papers here in Norway. Buddhists get a
      Message 2 of 16 , Apr 30, 2005
        At 14:32 30.04.2005 +0200, Gunnar wrote:

        >Interesting, especially in comparison to the myth -
        >quite common in the West - that the Buddha was fat. A
        >Pentecostalist preacher in Sweden (though he is of
        >Norwegian origin - sorry, Kåre!) recently called him,
        >in a sermon, "a brown burnt tin can, and an overweight
        >one" (_en brunbränd plåtburk, och en överviktig
        >sådan_).

        No need to apologize!

        Stupidity knows no nationality ... :-)

        >(This saying got lost in the media reports, because he
        >was attacking Islam in the same sermon, and promptly
        >got a Fatwa...)

        His words about Mohammad and the Buddha were in the papers here in Norway.
        Buddhists get a good laugh, other people just get angry.

        >So: does anyone know wherefrom this idea comes? As far
        >as I know, South and South East Asian Buddha images
        >tend to be quite slim; Chinese ones are sometimes a
        >different matter, but do such images represent the
        >historical Buddha, Maitreya, or someone else?

        As far as I remember, the fat "Buddha" is really a Chinese mythological
        figure Pu Tei or Ho Tei. Definitely not the historical Buddha.

        Maybe someone has some further informations about this?

        Best regards,

        Kåre A. Lie
        http://www.lienet.no
      • frank
        Sorry for this off topic post, but I could not help sharing this after ... In this week s issue of newsweek, there s an excellent article on the new pope.
        Message 3 of 16 , Apr 30, 2005
          Sorry for this off topic post, but I could not help sharing this after
          reading this portion of the thread:

          >Interesting, especially in comparison to the myth -
          >quite common in the West - that the Buddha was fat. A
          >Pentecostalist preacher in Sweden (though he is of
          >Norwegian origin - sorry, Kåre!) recently called him,
          >in a sermon, "a brown burnt tin can, and an overweight
          >one" (_en brunbränd plåtburk, och en överviktig
          >sådan_).

          In this week's issue of newsweek, there's an excellent article on the new
          pope. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7615894/site/newsweek/
          If you only have a few minutes check out the section of the article "where
          he stands".

          Here are a few excerpts:

          On other religions:
          "objectively speaking, they are in a gravely deficient situation in
          comparison with those who in the Church, have the fullness of the means of
          salvation."

          On sexual abuse scandals in catholic church:
          "I am personally convinced that the constant presence in the press of sins
          of Catholic priests... is a planned campaign, as the percentage of these
          offences among priests is not higher than in other categories."

          On women as priests:
          "[Such] 'priestly ordination' constitutes... a grave offense to the divine
          constitution of the church... [and] is an affront to the dignity of women,
          whose specific role in the Church and society is distinctive and
          irreplaceable."

          On homosexuality:
          "Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin,
          it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil;
          and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder... As
          in every conversion from evil, the abandonment of homosexual activity will
          require a profound collaboration of the individual with God's liberating
          grace."

          ============================
          My comments:
          The Pope is described as an intellectual professor. Does "objective" mean
          what I think it means? He uses that word frequently.

          Keep in mind the Pope is leader of hundreds of millions of Catholics. When I
          read what he says, I can not begin to describe the sickening feeling that
          overwhelms my aggregates. Evil in itself is filthy and disgusting, but evil
          delivered in a pseudo-intellectual disingenous double speak meant to swindle
          impressionable followers is a sin of the highest order. The salvation and
          heavenly realm that awaits this Pope will be nothing like he imagines.
        • pirayaani
          Hey Gunnar The Buddha who is often portrayed as fat is usually Hotei and not the historical Siddhartha Gotama. He is said to be a wandering monk who carried a
          Message 4 of 16 , Apr 30, 2005
            Hey Gunnar

            The Buddha who is often portrayed as fat is usually Hotei and not
            the historical Siddhartha Gotama. He is said to be a wandering monk
            who carried a bag of sweet stuff for children. Sometimes he is also
            called the Laghing Buddha. How he originated I am not sure but I
            think he is connected with zen. Sounds a bit like Santa Claus.

            pirayaani

            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Gunnar Gällmo <gunnargallmo@y...>
            wrote:
            > --- Yuttadhammo <buffer@s...> cited:
            >
            > > > the THINNEST religious people are Buddhists!
            >
            > Interesting, especially in comparison to the myth -
            > quite common in the West - that the Buddha was fat. A
            > Pentecostalist preacher in Sweden (though he is of
            > Norwegian origin - sorry, Kåre!) recently called him,
            > in a sermon, "a brown burnt tin can, and an overweight
            > one" (_en brunbränd plåtburk, och en överviktig
            > sådan_).
            >
            > (This saying got lost in the media reports, because he
            > was attacking Islam in the same sermon, and promptly
            > got a Fatwa...)
            >
            > So: does anyone know wherefrom this idea comes? As far
            > as I know, South and South East Asian Buddha images
            > tend to be quite slim; Chinese ones are sometimes a
            > different matter, but do such images represent the
            > historical Buddha, Maitreya, or someone else?
            >
            > Gunnar
            >
            > gunnargallmo@y...
          • Yuttadhammo
            Dear Friends, ... Well, I am not one hundred percent sold... what does Buddhism have to say about homosexuality for instance? Regarding misbehaviour of
            Message 5 of 16 , Apr 30, 2005
              Dear Friends,

              > Keep in mind the Pope is leader of hundreds of millions of Catholics.
              > When I read what he says, I can not begin to describe the sickening
              > feeling that overwhelms my aggregates.
              > Evil in itself is filthy and disgusting, but evil delivered in a
              > pseudo-intellectual disingenous double speak meant to swindle
              > impressionable followers is a sin of the highest order. The salvation
              > and heavenly realm that awaits this Pope will be nothing like he
              > imagines.

              Well, I am not one hundred percent sold... what does Buddhism have to say
              about homosexuality for instance? Regarding misbehaviour of priests in the
              Catholic church, consider the misbehaviour in other not-so-mainstream
              religions - is our own religion so pure?

              About the Pope's misunderstanding about salvation, well, I'd have to agree
              that this is a misunderstanding, and not very objective at all...

              > Keep in mind the Pope is leader of hundreds of millions of Catholics.

              Did you ever hear the story of Sanjaya? Sariputta and Moggalana invited him
              to join them in following the Buddha, and he asked them: "Are there more
              wise people or more fools in the world?" They responded that surely there
              were far more fools in the world. Sanjaya rejoined with "then you go ahead
              and join with the wise who are only a few, and I will stay here and be rich
              and famous leading millions of fools."

              More news from America: now you can buy candles that smell like Jesus
              (before or after he was nailed to a stick?). And the newest diet: "What
              would Jesus eat?"

              Suma"ngalaani,

              Yuttadhammo
            • Yuttadhammo
              ... It might help here to note that Kwan Yin is often referred to as Buddha, though orthodox tradition says she is only a Bodhisatta. Then there is the
              Message 6 of 16 , Apr 30, 2005
                > Hey Gunnar
                >
                > The Buddha who is often portrayed as fat is usually Hotei and
                > not the historical Siddhartha Gotama. He is said to be a
                > wandering monk who carried a bag of sweet stuff for children.
                > Sometimes he is also called the Laghing Buddha. How he
                > originated I am not sure but I think he is connected with
                > zen. Sounds a bit like Santa Claus.
                >
                > pirayaani

                It might help here to note that "Kwan Yin" is often referred to as Buddha,
                though orthodox tradition says she is only a Bodhisatta. Then there is the
                Medicine Buddha, and so on and so on. I think it is a misuse of the term...

                A Sri Lankan monk once gave a lecture in Canada about what the word Buddha
                means, and he said that he himself might be considered "Buddha" because he
                had learned a lot in school. Again, I think this is a misuse of the term...
                He also claimed that the word "vipassana" doesn't occur in the Tipitaka (it
                does, after all).

                There is a book in Thailand called "Good Morning, Buddha", originating from
                a Thai man who addressed the author, a foreign monk, in this way. Probably
                just a lack of vocabulary in this case...

                I think the fat "Buddha" is used to bring luck, and you're supposed to rub
                his belly or something like that . Sometimes you see children climbing all
                over him. I've also heard that it isn't really supposed to be a Buddha. I
                was given some candles of a fat Buddha once. Burn them? Don't burn them?
                What to do?

                Suma"ngalaani,

                Yuttadhammo
              • Clay Collier
                The chubby Buddha image often seen in East Asian settings is indeed Hotei or Pu-tai (not sure about the transliteration; I believe the first is the Japanes
                Message 7 of 16 , Apr 30, 2005
                  The chubby Buddha image often seen in East Asian settings is indeed
                  Hotei or Pu-tai (not sure about the transliteration; I believe the
                  first is the Japanes form, and the second Chinese), whose name is
                  supposed to mean 'hemp bag (or sack)', a reference to the bag that he
                  often carries on his back- which did indeed contain toys for children.
                  He is identified as a sort of ideal Zen Buddhist figure; he was also
                  supposed to have possessed many supernatural powers that he
                  demonstrated throughout his life. He aided poor people by predicting
                  the weather and alerting them to disasters. After his deathn(he is a
                  semi-historical figure, who supposedly was born to the name Ch'i-tz'u
                  in 10th Century Chekiang), he was supposed to have been revealed to be
                  an avatar of Maitteya Bodhisattva (the Buddha of the next age).

                  Depicting a Buddha-like figure as fat and surrounded by children is
                  sometimes viewed as being a Buddhist adaptation to Chinese culture.
                  As you may know, there was a great deal of concern when Buddhism
                  entered China over perceived incompatibilities between Buddhism and
                  Chinese culture, particularly Confucian values. It's very difficult
                  to fit the Chinese conception of a good son or daughter by leaving
                  your parents to become a celibate monk who sires no children and
                  gathers no wealth to support his or her parents.

                  Depicting a Buddhist figure in this way brings a Buddhism closer into
                  line with Confucian values. Being overweight was considered a sign of
                  wealth in ancient China, as is often the case in poor, agrarian
                  societies where food stuffs are the primary form of meaninfgul wealth.
                  Being surrounded by children, or depicted as a doting grandfather
                  figure, makes the Buddha or Bodhisattva seem more positively inclined
                  towards children and family. You'll often see in both Chinese and
                  some Indian depictions that the Buddha is shown with long earlobes.
                  This is a sign of wealth or nobility in the inconography of both
                  societies (one explanation that I have heard is that the earlobe was
                  supposed to be 'stretched' by the weight of the jeweled ear-rings that
                  the figure had been wearing).

                  Because of the perceived compatbility with Chinese values and the
                  popularity of Hotei among the poor becuase of his aid and miracles,
                  Chinese monks began to depict him quite frequently in their art. The
                  image is now probably the most common Buddha image that you see in
                  East Asia, the Laughing Buddha. By seeming much more 'approachable'
                  than the idea of a gaunt, family-less foreign saint, Pu-tai helped
                  increase the popularity of Buddhism among the lower classes in China,
                  despite its start as being almost entirely reserved for educated
                  elites.

                  The Shambhala Dictionary of Buddhism and Zen has a brief intro article
                  about him. The rest I pulled out of the remains of my memory of a
                  Chinese Buddhist History class I took several years ago from Robert
                  Gimello. I might be able to dig up some better sources, if anyone is
                  interested.

                  Clay Collier

                  On 4/30/05, Yuttadhammo <buffer@...> wrote:
                  > > Hey Gunnar
                  > >
                  > > The Buddha who is often portrayed as fat is usually Hotei and
                  > > not the historical Siddhartha Gotama. He is said to be a
                  > > wandering monk who carried a bag of sweet stuff for children.
                  > > Sometimes he is also called the Laghing Buddha. How he
                  > > originated I am not sure but I think he is connected with
                  > > zen. Sounds a bit like Santa Claus.
                  > >
                  > > pirayaani
                  >
                  > It might help here to note that "Kwan Yin" is often referred to as Buddha,
                  > though orthodox tradition says she is only a Bodhisatta. Then there is the
                  > Medicine Buddha, and so on and so on. I think it is a misuse of the
                  > term...
                  >
                  > A Sri Lankan monk once gave a lecture in Canada about what the word Buddha
                  > means, and he said that he himself might be considered "Buddha" because he
                  > had learned a lot in school. Again, I think this is a misuse of the
                  > term...
                  > He also claimed that the word "vipassana" doesn't occur in the Tipitaka (it
                  > does, after all).
                  >
                  > There is a book in Thailand called "Good Morning, Buddha", originating from
                  > a Thai man who addressed the author, a foreign monk, in this way. Probably
                  > just a lack of vocabulary in this case...
                  >
                  > I think the fat "Buddha" is used to bring luck, and you're supposed to rub
                  > his belly or something like that . Sometimes you see children climbing all
                  > over him. I've also heard that it isn't really supposed to be a Buddha. I
                  > was given some candles of a fat Buddha once. Burn them? Don't burn them?
                  > What to do?
                  >
                  > Suma"ngalaani,
                  >
                  > Yuttadhammo
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
                  > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
                  > [Files] http://www.geocities.com/paligroup/
                  > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
                  > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
                  > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web
                  > only.
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  > To visit your group on the web, go to:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/
                  >
                  > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  > Pali-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service.
                • Stephen Hodge
                  ... But have a look at this article: http://mailman.greennet.org.uk/public/gaias-cafe/2005-April/002551.html Ratzinger is in favour of limiting the civil
                  Message 8 of 16 , Apr 30, 2005
                    Bhante Yuttadhammo wrote:

                    > Well, I am not one hundred percent sold... what does Buddhism have to say
                    > about homosexuality for instance?

                    But have a look at this article:
                    http://mailman.greennet.org.uk/public/gaias-cafe/2005-April/002551.html

                    Ratzinger is in favour of limiting the civil liberties of gays and even
                    seems to think that they do not deserve full human rights -- I'm surprised
                    he doesn't call them "untermenschen". This I do not see anywhere in
                    Buddhism.

                    Best wishes,
                    Stephen Hodge
                  • thomaslaw03
                    ... the word vipassana doesn t occur in the Tipitaka (it ... Dear Yuttadhammo, I find this word, Vipassana, not only is very seldom mentioned in the SN and
                    Message 9 of 16 , Apr 30, 2005
                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Yuttadhammo" <buffer@s...> wrote:
                      > > Hey Gunnar
                      > >
                      >
                      > A Sri Lankan monk once gave a lecture in Canada ... claimed that
                      the word "vipassana" doesn't occur in the Tipitaka (it
                      > does, after all).
                      >
                      >
                      Dear Yuttadhammo,

                      I find this word, Vipassana, not only is very seldom mentioned in the
                      SN and SA, but also in the principal four nikayas/agamas (cf. also
                      Pali English Dictionary, p. 627). Why? Is it not an important word
                      being used at the time of the Buddha? Or is it actually created at a
                      relatively late period (after the death of the Buddha)?

                      Regards,

                      Thomas Law
                    • redxfist@aol.com
                      You ll often find the fat monk referred to Phra SangkaJai in Thailand. There is a story behind him but I don t have time to write it now. If anyone is
                      Message 10 of 16 , Apr 30, 2005
                        You'll often find the fat "monk" referred to Phra SangkaJai in Thailand.
                        There is a story behind him but I don't have time to write it now. If anyone
                        is interested I will though.

                        Hope this helps.
                        David



                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Yuttadhammo
                        ... Dear Thomas, I am not able to say when certain words arose. It seems clear from this group s posts that many catch words were around long before the
                        Message 11 of 16 , Apr 30, 2005
                          > > A Sri Lankan monk once gave a lecture in Canada ... claimed that
                          > the word "vipassana" doesn't occur in the Tipitaka (it
                          > > does, after all).
                          > >
                          > >
                          > Dear Yuttadhammo,
                          >
                          > I find this word, Vipassana, not only is very seldom
                          > mentioned in the SN and SA, but also in the principal four
                          > nikayas/agamas (cf. also Pali English Dictionary, p. 627).
                          > Why? Is it not an important word being used at the time of
                          > the Buddha? Or is it actually created at a relatively late
                          > period (after the death of the Buddha)?
                          >
                          > Regards,
                          >
                          > Thomas Law


                          Dear Thomas,

                          I am not able to say when certain words arose. It seems clear from this
                          group's posts that many catch words were around long before the Buddha arose
                          in the world (of course dharma and karma are obvious examples). I can give
                          some examples of how the Buddha surely used the words vipassanaa, vipassati,
                          vipassako, etc quite frequently:

                          Aaka"nkheyya ce, bhikkhave, bhikkhu- 'sabrahmacaariina.m piyo ca assa.m
                          manaapo ca garu ca bhaavaniiyo caa'ti siilesvevassa paripuurakaarii
                          ajjhatta.m cetosamathamanuyutto aniraakatajjhaano vipassanaaya samannaagato
                          bruuhetaa su~n~naagaaraana.m.

                          MN 6


                          Ime kho te, vaccha, dve dhammaa uttari bhaavitaa-samatho ca vipassanaa ca-
                          anekadhaatupa.tivedhaaya sa.mvattissanti.

                          MN 73 (Note the frequency with which these two terms are found in the MN and
                          AN)


                          "Atiita.m naanvaagameyya, nappa.tika'nkhe anaagata.m;
                          yadatiita.m pahiina.m ta.m, appatta~nca anaagata.m.
                          Paccuppanna~nca yo dhamma.m, tattha tattha vipassati;"

                          MN 131-4(this seems definitely an important teaching of the Buddha, as it is
                          repeated four times in a row)


                          Tatra, bhikkhave, yvaaya.m puggalo laabhii ceva hoti ajjhatta.m
                          cetosamathassa laabhii adhipa~n~naadhammavipassanaaya, tena, bhikkhave,
                          puggalena tesu ceva kusalesu dhammesu pati.t.thaaya uttari aasavaana.m
                          khayaaya yogo kara.niiyo.

                          AN 4.10.3


                          Puna capara.m, aavuso, bhikkhu vipassanaapubba"ngama.m samatha.m bhaaveti.
                          Tassa vipassanaapubba"ngama.m samatha.m bhaavayato maggo sa~njaayati. So
                          ta.m magga.m aasevati bhaaveti bahuliikaroti. Tassa ta.m magga.m aasevato
                          bhaavayato bahuliikarotosa.myojanaani pahiiyanti, anusayaa byantiihonti.

                          AN 4.17.10 (This one shows how samatha and vipassana can be coupled in
                          different ways)


                          Tasmaatiha te, bhikkhu, eva.m sikkhitabba.m- 'indriyesu guttadvaaro
                          bhavissaami, bhojane matta~n~nuu, jaagariya.m anuyutto, vipassako
                          kusalaana.m dhammaana.m, pubbarattaapararatta.mbodhipakkhiyaana.m
                          dhammaana.m bhaavanaanuyoga.m anuyutto viharissaamii'ti. Eva~nhi te,
                          bhikkhu, sikkhitabba.m.

                          AN 5.6.6


                          "Yoniso vicine dhamma.m, pa~n~naayattha.m vipassati;"

                          AN 7.1.3


                          andhabhuuto aya.m loko, tanukettha vipassati;
                          saku.no jaalamuttova, appo saggaaya gacchati.

                          Dhp 174.


                          Su~n~naagaara.m pavi.t.thassa, santacittassa bhikkhuno;
                          amaanusii rati hoti, sammaa dhamma.m vipassato.

                          Dhp 373.


                          "Aaki~nca~n~nasambhava.m ~natvaa, nandii sa.myojana.m iti;
                          evameta.m abhi~n~naaya, tato tattha vipassati;
                          eta.m ~naa.na.m tatha.m tassa, braahma.nassa vusiimato"ti."

                          SN 5.14


                          And of course it is found in the Abhidhamma:

                          Katamaa tasmi.m samaye vipassanaa hoti? Yaa tasmi.m samaye pa~n~naa
                          pajaananaa vicayo pavicayo dhammavicayo sallakkha.naa upalakkha.naa
                          paccupalakkha.naa pa.n.dicca.m kosalla.m nepu~n~na.m vebhabyaa cintaa
                          upaparikkhaa bhuurii medhaa pari.naayikaa vipassanaa sampaja~n~na.m patodo
                          pa~n~naa pa~n~nindriya.m pa~n~naabala.m pa~n~naasattha.m pa~n~naapaasaado
                          pa~n~naa-aaloko pa~n~naa-obhaaso pa~n~naapajjotopa~n~naaratana.m amoho
                          dhammavicayo sammaadi.t.thi- aya.m tasmi.m samaye vipassanaa hoti.

                          DhS


                          sa"nkhaare aniccatodukkhato anattato vipassati.

                          Patthana


                          The path of Vipassana is also found in detail in the Patisambhidamagga, but
                          this is generally attributed to Sariputta.

                          Suma"ngalaani,

                          Yuttadhammo
                        • Bhante Sujato
                          Hello Fat Buddha fans, I have precisely no evidence for this, but i feel that it s very likely that the association between Maitreya and the fat man was
                          Message 12 of 16 , May 1, 2005
                            Hello Fat Buddha fans,

                            I have precisely no evidence for this, but i feel that it's very
                            likely that the association between Maitreya and the fat man was
                            prompted purely by a pun: 'mettaayati'ti mettaa, 'it fattens, thus
                            it's called mettaa'. Fat in Pali being of course 'meda'.

                            Another interesting detail on this is that 'metteyya' in the Pali
                            canon as far as i know is only used in conjunction with 'petteyya',
                            meaning 'filial devotion to mother and father'. Thus the association
                            of Metteyya Buddha with mettaa is possibly an incorrect reading. Of
                            course the meaning is nice, in view of the association of the maataa
                            with mettaa (and the overweight stature of the pregnant woman!)

                            in Dhamma

                            Bhante Sujato




                            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, redxfist@a... wrote:
                            > You'll often find the fat "monk" referred to Phra SangkaJai in
                            Thailand.
                            > There is a story behind him but I don't have time to write it
                            now. If anyone
                            > is interested I will though.
                            >
                            > Hope this helps.
                            > David
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Ong Yong Peng
                            Dear Stephen, Frank and friends, in my humble opinion, I think the ongoing waves of Islamic terrorism is giving confidence to some Christian fundamentalist
                            Message 13 of 16 , May 1, 2005
                              Dear Stephen, Frank and friends,

                              in my humble opinion, I think the ongoing waves of Islamic terrorism
                              is giving confidence to some Christian fundamentalist groups. I am
                              not writing very well on this since most are passing thoughts. I do
                              think that top people in the Catholic Church takes this as an
                              opportunity to reclaim the grounds they have lost in the past
                              decades. As the richest and most powerful religious activists and
                              lobbyists, they like to ensure that the Abrahamic faith is preserved
                              exactly in the way they preferred, disregarding that its doctrinal
                              foundation is shared by numerous religious denominations, all having
                              very diverse views of most of the issues. I think there is a
                              likelihood we see things coming round to a full circle, and it would
                              trigger a new renaissance, only this time it will be a worldwide
                              movement and most probably reduce religions to a bare social
                              institution.

                              The Buddhist stand on other religions is always embrace and respect,
                              and this discussion hardly leads us to anything we want to achieve.
                              So, I would suggest that we give the topic a rest, and resume our
                              normal activities.


                              metta,
                              Yong Peng.
                            • Dhammanando Bhikkhu
                              Bhante, ... Perhaps the monk had in mind the Atthakathaas notion of a sutabuddha. cattaaro hi buddhaa: sutabuddho, catusaccabuddho, paccekabuddho,
                              Message 14 of 16 , May 2, 2005
                                Bhante,

                                Ven. Yuttadhammo wrote:

                                > A Sri Lankan monk once gave a lecture in Canada about what
                                > the word Buddha means, and he said that he himself might be
                                > considered "Buddha" because he had learned a lot in school.
                                > Again, I think this is a misuse of the term...

                                Perhaps the monk had in mind the Atthakathaas' notion of
                                a sutabuddha.

                                cattaaro hi buddhaa: sutabuddho, catusaccabuddho,
                                paccekabuddho, sabba~n~nubuddho ti
                                For [there are] four awakened ones: one awakened
                                through learning; one awakened through the four
                                truths; one awakened privately; one awakened
                                through omniscience.

                                tattha bahussuto bhikkhu "sutabuddho" naama.
                                In this scheme a bhikkhu who has heard much is
                                called "one awakened through learning".

                                khii.naasavo "catusaccabuddho" naama.
                                He in whom the pollutions are ended is called
                                "one awakened through the four truths".

                                kappasatasahassaadhikaani dve asa`nkhyeyyaani
                                paaramiyo puuretvaa saama.m
                                pa.tividdhapaccekabodhi~naa.no "paccekabuddho"
                                naama.
                                One who after fulfilling the perfections for two
                                asankhyeyyas and one hundred thousand kappas,
                                has by himself penetrated that knowledge
                                called private awakening is called "one awakened
                                privately".

                                kappasatasahassaadhikaani cattaari vaa a.t.tha vaa
                                so.lasa vaa asa`nkhyeyyaani paaramiyo puuretvaa
                                ti.n.na.m maaraana.m matthaka.m madditvaa
                                pa.tividdhasabba~n~nuta~n~naa.no
                                "sabba~n~nubuddho" naama.
                                One who after fulfilling the perfections for four,
                                eight or sixteen asankhyeyyas and one hundred
                                thousand kappas, and trampling on the head of the
                                three Maaras, has by himself penetrated that
                                knowledge called omniscience, is called an
                                omniscient awakened one.

                                imesu catuusu buddhesu sabba~n~nubuddhova adutiyo
                                naama. na hi tena saddhi.m a~n~no sabba~n~nubuddho
                                naama uppajjati.
                                Among these four awakened ones, only the omniscient
                                awakened one is called 'without a second', because
                                another [person] called 'an omniscient awakened one'
                                does not arise with him.
                                (AA. i. 115)

                                Best wishes,

                                Dhammanando
                              • Daniel
                                Hello. I am not sure if the subject is appropriate for the group, if it is not, please see the post as irrelevant. Is it asserted by Theravada monks that
                                Message 15 of 16 , Apr 6, 2006
                                  Hello.

                                  I am not sure if the subject is appropriate for the group, if it is not, please
                                  see the post as irrelevant.





                                  Is it asserted by Theravada monks that Vipassana (of the Theravada tradition) is
                                  the original way to practice the Satipathana sutta? Or do they say it was
                                  "adapted", or alternatively "rediscovered"?


                                  I think Zen practice also is said to be based upon Satipathana sutta, though it
                                  is different from Vipassana. And I am not sure whether the Tibetan version of
                                  practice of "The four foundations of mindfulness" is the same as Vipassana
                                  approach.



                                  Have a good day

                                  ----------------------------------------------------------------
                                  This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program.
                                • "Kåre A. Lie"
                                  ... There is not ONE way to practice the Satipatthana sutta. There are different practical approaches, according to different teachers and their
                                  Message 16 of 16 , Apr 6, 2006
                                    At 19:11 06.04.2006 +0300, you wrote:
                                    >Hello.
                                    >
                                    >I am not sure if the subject is appropriate for the group, if it is not,
                                    >please
                                    >see the post as irrelevant.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >Is it asserted by Theravada monks that Vipassana (of the Theravada
                                    >tradition) is
                                    >the original way to practice the Satipathana sutta? Or do they say it was
                                    >"adapted", or alternatively "rediscovered"?

                                    There is not ONE way to practice the Satipatthana sutta. There are
                                    different practical approaches, according to different teachers and their
                                    interpretations.

                                    I suggest you read Jack Kornfield "Living Buddhist Masters", to find a good
                                    survey of some of those different approaches.

                                    Best regards,

                                    Kåre A. Lie
                                    http://www.lienet.no


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.