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Re: Help with Pali line

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  • cheangoo
    ... Dear Bhante, Thanks for your explanation. I recognize that the Amaravati translation goes for the spirit of the chant. Usually if the chant is something
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 25, 2005
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      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Bhante Sujato" <sujato@g...> wrote:
      Dear Bhante,

      Thanks for your explanation. I recognize that the Amaravati
      translation goes for the spirit of the chant. Usually if the chant
      is something that comes straight from the suttas, there is no
      problem. In cases like this, which is rather restricted to the Thai
      tradition (do the Burmese or Sri Lanka chant these passages for
      dispassionateness too?), I have suspected that some part may not
      come directly from the suttas. Thanks for your explanation.

      I see a lot of activity coming up in Sydney. Bhante's wrokshops and
      the coming Australian Sangha Council. Presages a great future for
      Buddhism in Australia. We in Malaysia support and welcome all
      Dhammaduta work that is occurring in Australia.

      Respectfully in the Dhamma,
      Khaik-Cheang Oo


      >
      > Hi Dr Oo
      >
      >
      > >
      > > vatthuttaya.m vandayataabhisa.nkhata.m which is translated in
      the
      > > Amaravati chanting book as "To that which is worthy"
      >
      > Amaravati translations aim for the spirit rather than the letter,
      > which is exactly right for chanters, but frustrating for Pali
      > students!
      >
      > The context is some verses of homage to the triple gem that are
      part
      > of the regular Thai morning chanting,
      > the 'Ratanattayappa.naamagaathaa'. I believe this is a composition
      > made in Thailand.
      >
      > The verse in question has four lines, which, unusually, the Thai
      > translation renders as a group rather than line-by-line;
      presumably
      > because the passage was hard to render literally. The translation
      does
      > not follow the sequence of the Pali. Checking this up, i became
      > interested in the Thai (which i have been neglecting even more
      than my
      > Pali!), so i attempt a translation.
      >
      > It starts off with 'Boon dy' 'whatever merit', which is the first
      > phrase of the third line. A literal rendering of the whole passage
      is
      > something like this:
      >
      > 'Whatever merit that i, the one worshipping the three things -
      that
      > is, the triple gem - that one should pay total highest homage to,
      have
      > made already in the highest such as this, may obstacles all not be
      for
      > me at all, through the power accomplished that is born from that
      > merit'.
      >
      > At least some of the syntactical obscurity of this stems
      originally
      > from the Pali, which evidently caused problems for the Thai
      translator.
      >
      > The sense in the Amaravati translation of 'that which is worthy'
      is
      > conveyed by the first line, 'iccevamekantabhipuujaneyyaka.m',
      which i
      > would resolve as :
      >
      > 'icc[=iti]-eva.m-ekanta-abhipuujaneyyaka.m'"That which is
      completely
      > worth of homage".
      >
      > The Thai has 'an kuan bucha ying doy suan dio', which is a very
      > literal rendering of this line. The Thai, however, places this as
      if
      > it were the second line. It seems that perhaps the Amaravati
      > translation might have done the same, thus causing the confusion -
      it
      > is not unlikely that the Amaravati trans was in fact influenced by
      the
      > Thai.
      >
      > It seems that the compounds for the second line should be broken
      up
      > as:
      >
      > 'vatthu-ttaya.m' 'the three grounds' (or 'bases', 'things', etc.,
      > presumably referring to the triple gem, the Thai makes this
      explicit)
      >
      > vandayata-abhisa.nkhata.m
      >
      > I'm not sure what the exact grammatical case of 'vandayata-' is,
      but
      > the general sense seems to be the 'homage that is made' [to the
      three
      > things (gems)].
      >
      > I think this corresponds to the Thai 'poo wai yoo [seung vatthu
      > saam...]...dy gratam laeow pen yaang ying...' The latter
      corresponds
      > literally to 'abhisankhata.m'. The former phrase ('poo wai
      yoo...') is
      > in present continous tense ('the person worshipping...').
      >
      > yours in Dhamma
      >
      > Bhante Sujato
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