Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.
 

Re: [Pali] Gair Lessons 3 & 4

Expand Messages
  • Äìèòðèé Èâàõíåíêî (Dimit
    Dear John, Thank you for your good work. I have finished the translation and am correcting errors and making a dictionary, so your help is very timely. Soon I
    Message 1 of 3 , Mar 13, 2002
      Dear John,

      Thank you for your good work. I have finished the translation and am
      correcting errors and making a dictionary, so your help is very
      timely.

      Soon I will place on my site a new version of translated textbook in
      Unicode CN-Times http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/fonts/ font.

      By the way, if you have a spare moment, please take a look at my
      recent rough sketch of pa.ticca-samuppaada at
      http://i.kiev.ua/~koleso/dharma/lib/paticca.zip
      with the above mentioned font.

      Metta,
      Dimitry

      Lesson 3, Section 1:
      1.
      - In the second question there is no 'satta', so the translation may
      be: If nobody transmigrates ...
      - 'pa.tisandahati' - 'reincarnates'?
      - 'opamma' is not exactly an 'example' - maybe 'comparison', 'analogy',
      'parralel' or 'metaphor'?
      - 'puriso' is skipped;
      2.
      - 'ta.m' refers to the asked question, literally 'this' in 'how do you
      consider this', and not 'so'.
      - 'ma~n~nati' is rather 'considers', 'deems', not an intellectual
      'thinks';
      - 'du.t.tho' - rather 'malicious', 'vicious'?
      - 'vi~n~nuugarahitaa' - 'disapproved by the wise';
      3.
      - 'akusala.m' - 'unskillfulness', 'unskillful qualities';
      - 'kusala.m' - 'skillfulness', 'skillful qualities';

      Lesson 3, Section 2:
      1.
      - 'adu.t.tho' - 'non-vicious' or 'amiable';
      - 'vijjaa' - 'craft', 'education';
      - 'vijjaagato' - 'educated';
      - 'samattaa samaadinnaa' - 'brought to perfection and undertaken';
      2.
      - 'Naaha.m samanupassaami...' - 'I don't see...';
      - 'pi' refers rather to 'ekadhamma', so it's better to drop 'indeed'
      in English;
      - 'eva.m abhaavita.m akammaniya.m hoti' - 'is so unworkable when
      undeveloped';
      - 'adhivaaha' - 'bringing';
      3.
      - 'association with unpleasant is suffering, separation from pleasant
      is suffering, not getting what one desires is suffering';
      4.
      - 'lakkha.na' - 'nature';
      - 'could see a person coming from the east, could see a person coming
      from the south, could see a person coming from the west, and could see
      a person coming from the north';
      - 'discriminate with consciousness an idea he discriminates
      with the intellect';
      - 'Kallo'si' - 'Clever you are';

      Lesson 4, Section 1:
      1.
      - 'there are four defilements of Brahmins and ascetics'. Your
      translation 'Brahmin recluses' is also very interesting, can you
      please substantiate it, maybe I'm mistaken?
      - 'na bhaasanti na virocanti' - 'don't glitter, sparkle, glare, gleam,
      beam, radiate', English is so rich;
      - 'that drink wine and liquor, and don't abstain from drinking';
      - 'ignorantly appropriate gold and silver';
      2.
      - 'sukha.m' - 'happiness, ease, well-being';
      3.
      - 'kalyaa.na' - 'virtuous';
      - 'Lazy man chants much the scriptures, but does not implement them';
      - 'Pleasure gives birth to sorrow, pleasure gives birth to fear;
      For one who is freed from pleasure, there is no sorrow, whence is
      fear?'

      Lesson 4, Section 2:
      1.
      - 'Here, monks, in such an assembly monks are agitated, arrogant,
      fickle, garrulous, loose-talking … unmindful, uncollected, with
      wandering minds, and unbridled (unrestrained) faculties.'
      - 'they are illustrious with unrighteous actions, and not with
      righteous actions';
      2.
      - Having completely understood this, the wise diligently
      Rejoice in diligence, delighting in the sphere of the nobles.
      - For irrigators direct water, fletchers fashion arrows,
      Carpenters shape wood, and the wise tame themselves.
      - Just as a solid rock, which is not blown off by the wind,
      The wise are not moved by blame or praise.
      - Just as a deep and clear lake, which is not stirred up,
      The wise, having heard the teachings, are serene.
      3.
      - 'pabbajita' - 'one who has gone forth', 'wanderer';
      - 'saamisa.m sukha.m' - 'happiness of the flesh';
      - 'niramisa.m sukha.m' - 'happiness not of the flesh';
      4.
      - 'appa.tivattiya.m' - 'irreversible';
      - 'araha.m' - 'Worthy';
      - 'sama.na' - 'ascetic'.
    • John Kelly
      Dear Dimitry, Over 2 months ago you sent me a very thoughtful and helpful reply to the translations I had posted to this list of the exercises from chapters 3
      Message 2 of 3 , May 27, 2002
        Dear Dimitry,
        Over 2 months ago you sent me a very thoughtful and
        helpful reply to the translations I had posted to this
        list of the exercises from chapters 3 and 4 in the
        Gair Pali Reader. I have finally gotten around to
        putting hands to keyboard to respond to your
        suggestions.

        Most of your ideas for improving my translation
        attempt, I thought were improvements and changed my
        version; some, I thought were fine alternatives, but
        let my version stand; and just one or two I disagreed
        with.

        Your original email is below with my comments
        interspersed. Where I haven�t commented on one of
        your suggestions means that I felt it belonged to the
        middle category � either interpretation seeming quite
        valid.

        >>Lesson 3, Section 1:
        >>1.
        >>- In the second question there is no 'satta', so the
        translation may
        >>be: If nobody transmigrates ... - OK

        >>- 'pa.tisandahati' - 'reincarnates'?

        >>- 'opamma' is not exactly an 'example' - maybe
        'comparison', 'analogy',
        >>'parralel' or 'metaphor'?
        Agreed � �simile� is a good translation too.

        >>- 'puriso' is skipped;
        �kocadeva puriso� can be translated by �someone� or
        �some person�.

        >>2.
        >>- 'ta.m' refers to the asked question, literally
        'this' in 'how do you
        >>consider this', and not 'so'.
        See my next comment.
        >>- 'ma~n~nati' is rather 'considers', 'deems', not an
        intellectual
        >>'thinks';
        �ta.m ki.m mannasi� is literally �How do you consider
        this�, but in more fluent English would be �So what do
        you think?�.

        >>- 'du.t.tho' - rather 'malicious', 'vicious'? - OK

        >>- 'vi~n~nuugarahitaa' - 'disapproved by the wise';
        >>3.
        >>- 'akusala.m' - 'unskillfulness', 'unskillful
        qualities';
        >>- 'kusala.m' - 'skillfulness', 'skillful qualities';
        >>
        >>Lesson 3, Section 2:
        >>1.
        >>- 'adu.t.tho' - 'non-vicious' or 'amiable'; - OK

        >>- 'vijjaa' - 'craft', 'education';
        >>- 'vijjaagato' - 'educated';

        >>- 'samattaa samaadinnaa' - 'brought to perfection
        and undertaken';
        Yes � better than my original choice.

        >>2.
        >>- 'Naaha.m samanupassaami...' - 'I don't see...';

        >>- 'pi' refers rather to 'ekadhamma', so it's better
        to drop 'indeed'
        >>in English;
        Good.

        >>- 'eva.m abhaavita.m akammaniya.m hoti' - 'is so
        unworkable when
        >>undeveloped';
        Thank you! � I completely missed the mark on my
        original.

        >>- 'adhivaaha' - 'bringing'; -- OK

        >>3.
        >>- 'association with unpleasant is suffering,
        separation from pleasant
        >> is suffering, not getting what one desires is
        suffering';
        >>4.
        >>- 'lakkha.na' - 'nature';
        �characteristic� or �distinguishing mark� are common
        translations of �lakkha.na� too.

        >>- 'could see a person coming from the east, could
        see a person coming
        >>from the south, could see a person coming from the
        west, and could see
        >>a person coming from the north';
        >>- 'discriminate with consciousness an idea he
        discriminates
        >>with the intellect'; - OK

        >>- 'Kallo'si' - 'Clever you are'; - OK

        >>
        >>Lesson 4, Section 1:
        >>1.
        >>- 'there are four defilements of Brahmins and
        ascetics'. Your
        >>translation 'Brahmin recluses' is also very
        interesting, can you
        >>please substantiate it, maybe I'm mistaken?
        No, I�m mistaken not you. Compound words can be many
        things, sometimes adjectival, sometimes joined as
        �and�, among others. I just made an interpretation
        that was wrong. Having read more of the canon, it�s
        now clear to me that �and� is meant here.

        >>- 'na bhaasanti na virocanti' - 'don't glitter,
        sparkle, glare, gleam,
        >>beam, radiate', English is so rich; - It certainly
        is!

        >>- 'that drink wine and liquor, and don't abstain
        from drinking'; - OK

        >>- 'ignorantly appropriate gold and silver'; - OK

        >>2.
        >>- 'sukha.m' - 'happiness, ease, well-being'; - OK

        >>3.
        >>- 'kalyaa.na' - 'virtuous'; - OK

        >>- 'Lazy man chants much the scriptures, but does not
        implement them'; - OK

        >>- 'Pleasure gives birth to sorrow, pleasure gives
        birth to fear;
        >>For one who is freed from pleasure, there is no
        sorrow, whence is
        >>fear?'
        >>
        >>Lesson 4, Section 2:
        >>1.
        >>- 'Here, monks, in such an assembly monks are
        agitated, arrogant,
        >>fickle, garrulous, loose-talking � unmindful,
        uncollected, with
        >>wandering minds, and unbridled (unrestrained)
        faculties.' - OK

        >>- 'they are illustrious with unrighteous actions,
        and not with
        >>righteous actions'; - OK

        >>2.
        >>- Having completely understood this, the wise
        diligently
        >>Rejoice in diligence, delighting in the sphere of
        the nobles. - OK

        >>- For irrigators direct water, fletchers fashion
        arrows,
        >>Carpenters shape wood, and the wise tame themselves.

        >>- Just as a solid rock, which is not blown off by
        the wind,
        >>The wise are not moved by blame or praise. - OK

        >>- Just as a deep and clear lake, which is not
        stirred up,
        >>The wise, having heard the teachings, are serene. -
        OK

        >>3.
        >>- 'pabbajita' - 'one who has gone forth',
        'wanderer'; - OK

        >>- 'saamisa.m sukha.m' - 'happiness of the flesh';
        >>- 'niramisa.m sukha.m' - 'happiness not of the
        flesh';
        OK � also �material happiness� and �spiritual
        happiness�

        >>4.
        >>- 'appa.tivattiya.m' - 'irreversible'; - OK

        >>- 'araha.m' - 'Worthy'; - OK

        >>- 'sama.na' - 'ascetic'. � OK

        Thanks again for your help.
        I will be posting shortly my answers to chapter 5, so
        I will look forward to responses from you and others.

        Metta,
        John

        --- "������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)"
        <sangha@...> wrote:
        > Dear John,
        >
        > Thank you for your good work. I have finished the
        > translation and am
        > correcting errors and making a dictionary, so your
        > help is very
        > timely.
        >
        > Soon I will place on my site a new version of
        > translated textbook in
        > .....

        __________________________________________________
        Do You Yahoo!?
        Yahoo! - Official partner of 2002 FIFA World Cup
        http://fifaworldcup.yahoo.com
      Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.