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Gair Lessons 3 & 4

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  • John Kelly
    Dear friends, I am continuing working through the Gair/Karunatillake book A New Course in Reading Pali , and have now completed the exercises in lessons 3 and
    Message 1 of 3 , Mar 11, 2002
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      Dear friends,
      I am continuing working through the Gair/Karunatillake
      book "A New Course in Reading Pali", and have now
      completed the exercises in lessons 3 and 4. I have
      posted these solutions in our files area at:
      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/Gair/
      and would very much welcome any corrections,
      improvements, or discussion that those of you
      interested might wish to offer.

      Assistance in developing these answers came from Henry
      Grossi, and of course I owe a debt to Dimitry for
      providing a word doc source for all the Pali text in
      the exercises - i.e., his Russian translation of the
      book, which saved me a great deal of typing!

      Metta,
      John




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    • Äìèòðèé Èâàõíåíêî (Dimit
      Dear John, Thank you for your good work. I have finished the translation and am correcting errors and making a dictionary, so your help is very timely. Soon I
      Message 2 of 3 , Mar 13, 2002
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        Dear John,

        Thank you for your good work. I have finished the translation and am
        correcting errors and making a dictionary, so your help is very
        timely.

        Soon I will place on my site a new version of translated textbook in
        Unicode CN-Times http://zencomp.com/greatwisdom/fonts/ font.

        By the way, if you have a spare moment, please take a look at my
        recent rough sketch of pa.ticca-samuppaada at
        http://i.kiev.ua/~koleso/dharma/lib/paticca.zip
        with the above mentioned font.

        Metta,
        Dimitry

        Lesson 3, Section 1:
        1.
        - In the second question there is no 'satta', so the translation may
        be: If nobody transmigrates ...
        - 'pa.tisandahati' - 'reincarnates'?
        - 'opamma' is not exactly an 'example' - maybe 'comparison', 'analogy',
        'parralel' or 'metaphor'?
        - 'puriso' is skipped;
        2.
        - 'ta.m' refers to the asked question, literally 'this' in 'how do you
        consider this', and not 'so'.
        - 'ma~n~nati' is rather 'considers', 'deems', not an intellectual
        'thinks';
        - 'du.t.tho' - rather 'malicious', 'vicious'?
        - 'vi~n~nuugarahitaa' - 'disapproved by the wise';
        3.
        - 'akusala.m' - 'unskillfulness', 'unskillful qualities';
        - 'kusala.m' - 'skillfulness', 'skillful qualities';

        Lesson 3, Section 2:
        1.
        - 'adu.t.tho' - 'non-vicious' or 'amiable';
        - 'vijjaa' - 'craft', 'education';
        - 'vijjaagato' - 'educated';
        - 'samattaa samaadinnaa' - 'brought to perfection and undertaken';
        2.
        - 'Naaha.m samanupassaami...' - 'I don't see...';
        - 'pi' refers rather to 'ekadhamma', so it's better to drop 'indeed'
        in English;
        - 'eva.m abhaavita.m akammaniya.m hoti' - 'is so unworkable when
        undeveloped';
        - 'adhivaaha' - 'bringing';
        3.
        - 'association with unpleasant is suffering, separation from pleasant
        is suffering, not getting what one desires is suffering';
        4.
        - 'lakkha.na' - 'nature';
        - 'could see a person coming from the east, could see a person coming
        from the south, could see a person coming from the west, and could see
        a person coming from the north';
        - 'discriminate with consciousness an idea he discriminates
        with the intellect';
        - 'Kallo'si' - 'Clever you are';

        Lesson 4, Section 1:
        1.
        - 'there are four defilements of Brahmins and ascetics'. Your
        translation 'Brahmin recluses' is also very interesting, can you
        please substantiate it, maybe I'm mistaken?
        - 'na bhaasanti na virocanti' - 'don't glitter, sparkle, glare, gleam,
        beam, radiate', English is so rich;
        - 'that drink wine and liquor, and don't abstain from drinking';
        - 'ignorantly appropriate gold and silver';
        2.
        - 'sukha.m' - 'happiness, ease, well-being';
        3.
        - 'kalyaa.na' - 'virtuous';
        - 'Lazy man chants much the scriptures, but does not implement them';
        - 'Pleasure gives birth to sorrow, pleasure gives birth to fear;
        For one who is freed from pleasure, there is no sorrow, whence is
        fear?'

        Lesson 4, Section 2:
        1.
        - 'Here, monks, in such an assembly monks are agitated, arrogant,
        fickle, garrulous, loose-talking … unmindful, uncollected, with
        wandering minds, and unbridled (unrestrained) faculties.'
        - 'they are illustrious with unrighteous actions, and not with
        righteous actions';
        2.
        - Having completely understood this, the wise diligently
        Rejoice in diligence, delighting in the sphere of the nobles.
        - For irrigators direct water, fletchers fashion arrows,
        Carpenters shape wood, and the wise tame themselves.
        - Just as a solid rock, which is not blown off by the wind,
        The wise are not moved by blame or praise.
        - Just as a deep and clear lake, which is not stirred up,
        The wise, having heard the teachings, are serene.
        3.
        - 'pabbajita' - 'one who has gone forth', 'wanderer';
        - 'saamisa.m sukha.m' - 'happiness of the flesh';
        - 'niramisa.m sukha.m' - 'happiness not of the flesh';
        4.
        - 'appa.tivattiya.m' - 'irreversible';
        - 'araha.m' - 'Worthy';
        - 'sama.na' - 'ascetic'.
      • John Kelly
        Dear Dimitry, Over 2 months ago you sent me a very thoughtful and helpful reply to the translations I had posted to this list of the exercises from chapters 3
        Message 3 of 3 , May 27, 2002
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          Dear Dimitry,
          Over 2 months ago you sent me a very thoughtful and
          helpful reply to the translations I had posted to this
          list of the exercises from chapters 3 and 4 in the
          Gair Pali Reader. I have finally gotten around to
          putting hands to keyboard to respond to your
          suggestions.

          Most of your ideas for improving my translation
          attempt, I thought were improvements and changed my
          version; some, I thought were fine alternatives, but
          let my version stand; and just one or two I disagreed
          with.

          Your original email is below with my comments
          interspersed. Where I haven�t commented on one of
          your suggestions means that I felt it belonged to the
          middle category � either interpretation seeming quite
          valid.

          >>Lesson 3, Section 1:
          >>1.
          >>- In the second question there is no 'satta', so the
          translation may
          >>be: If nobody transmigrates ... - OK

          >>- 'pa.tisandahati' - 'reincarnates'?

          >>- 'opamma' is not exactly an 'example' - maybe
          'comparison', 'analogy',
          >>'parralel' or 'metaphor'?
          Agreed � �simile� is a good translation too.

          >>- 'puriso' is skipped;
          �kocadeva puriso� can be translated by �someone� or
          �some person�.

          >>2.
          >>- 'ta.m' refers to the asked question, literally
          'this' in 'how do you
          >>consider this', and not 'so'.
          See my next comment.
          >>- 'ma~n~nati' is rather 'considers', 'deems', not an
          intellectual
          >>'thinks';
          �ta.m ki.m mannasi� is literally �How do you consider
          this�, but in more fluent English would be �So what do
          you think?�.

          >>- 'du.t.tho' - rather 'malicious', 'vicious'? - OK

          >>- 'vi~n~nuugarahitaa' - 'disapproved by the wise';
          >>3.
          >>- 'akusala.m' - 'unskillfulness', 'unskillful
          qualities';
          >>- 'kusala.m' - 'skillfulness', 'skillful qualities';
          >>
          >>Lesson 3, Section 2:
          >>1.
          >>- 'adu.t.tho' - 'non-vicious' or 'amiable'; - OK

          >>- 'vijjaa' - 'craft', 'education';
          >>- 'vijjaagato' - 'educated';

          >>- 'samattaa samaadinnaa' - 'brought to perfection
          and undertaken';
          Yes � better than my original choice.

          >>2.
          >>- 'Naaha.m samanupassaami...' - 'I don't see...';

          >>- 'pi' refers rather to 'ekadhamma', so it's better
          to drop 'indeed'
          >>in English;
          Good.

          >>- 'eva.m abhaavita.m akammaniya.m hoti' - 'is so
          unworkable when
          >>undeveloped';
          Thank you! � I completely missed the mark on my
          original.

          >>- 'adhivaaha' - 'bringing'; -- OK

          >>3.
          >>- 'association with unpleasant is suffering,
          separation from pleasant
          >> is suffering, not getting what one desires is
          suffering';
          >>4.
          >>- 'lakkha.na' - 'nature';
          �characteristic� or �distinguishing mark� are common
          translations of �lakkha.na� too.

          >>- 'could see a person coming from the east, could
          see a person coming
          >>from the south, could see a person coming from the
          west, and could see
          >>a person coming from the north';
          >>- 'discriminate with consciousness an idea he
          discriminates
          >>with the intellect'; - OK

          >>- 'Kallo'si' - 'Clever you are'; - OK

          >>
          >>Lesson 4, Section 1:
          >>1.
          >>- 'there are four defilements of Brahmins and
          ascetics'. Your
          >>translation 'Brahmin recluses' is also very
          interesting, can you
          >>please substantiate it, maybe I'm mistaken?
          No, I�m mistaken not you. Compound words can be many
          things, sometimes adjectival, sometimes joined as
          �and�, among others. I just made an interpretation
          that was wrong. Having read more of the canon, it�s
          now clear to me that �and� is meant here.

          >>- 'na bhaasanti na virocanti' - 'don't glitter,
          sparkle, glare, gleam,
          >>beam, radiate', English is so rich; - It certainly
          is!

          >>- 'that drink wine and liquor, and don't abstain
          from drinking'; - OK

          >>- 'ignorantly appropriate gold and silver'; - OK

          >>2.
          >>- 'sukha.m' - 'happiness, ease, well-being'; - OK

          >>3.
          >>- 'kalyaa.na' - 'virtuous'; - OK

          >>- 'Lazy man chants much the scriptures, but does not
          implement them'; - OK

          >>- 'Pleasure gives birth to sorrow, pleasure gives
          birth to fear;
          >>For one who is freed from pleasure, there is no
          sorrow, whence is
          >>fear?'
          >>
          >>Lesson 4, Section 2:
          >>1.
          >>- 'Here, monks, in such an assembly monks are
          agitated, arrogant,
          >>fickle, garrulous, loose-talking � unmindful,
          uncollected, with
          >>wandering minds, and unbridled (unrestrained)
          faculties.' - OK

          >>- 'they are illustrious with unrighteous actions,
          and not with
          >>righteous actions'; - OK

          >>2.
          >>- Having completely understood this, the wise
          diligently
          >>Rejoice in diligence, delighting in the sphere of
          the nobles. - OK

          >>- For irrigators direct water, fletchers fashion
          arrows,
          >>Carpenters shape wood, and the wise tame themselves.

          >>- Just as a solid rock, which is not blown off by
          the wind,
          >>The wise are not moved by blame or praise. - OK

          >>- Just as a deep and clear lake, which is not
          stirred up,
          >>The wise, having heard the teachings, are serene. -
          OK

          >>3.
          >>- 'pabbajita' - 'one who has gone forth',
          'wanderer'; - OK

          >>- 'saamisa.m sukha.m' - 'happiness of the flesh';
          >>- 'niramisa.m sukha.m' - 'happiness not of the
          flesh';
          OK � also �material happiness� and �spiritual
          happiness�

          >>4.
          >>- 'appa.tivattiya.m' - 'irreversible'; - OK

          >>- 'araha.m' - 'Worthy'; - OK

          >>- 'sama.na' - 'ascetic'. � OK

          Thanks again for your help.
          I will be posting shortly my answers to chapter 5, so
          I will look forward to responses from you and others.

          Metta,
          John

          --- "������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)"
          <sangha@...> wrote:
          > Dear John,
          >
          > Thank you for your good work. I have finished the
          > translation and am
          > correcting errors and making a dictionary, so your
          > help is very
          > timely.
          >
          > Soon I will place on my site a new version of
          > translated textbook in
          > .....

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