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Buddhist economics

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  • Stephen Hodge
    ... I think this is all rather over the top and still not a little offensive or hurtful. To me, it is quite clear from the context that Nina was not saying
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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      Mike wrote:

      >> "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"
      > 1. It is for the sake of pointing out by way of analysis of the
      > response how it was a statement made without thought or was a
      > pernicious belief held onto by her.

      I think this is all rather over the top and still not a little offensive or
      hurtful. To me, it is quite clear from the context that Nina was not saying
      that one cannot escape from nama-rupa in the Buddhist sense, but they are an
      ever-present problem that we are burdened with, so as far as I can see she
      was merely saying that the demands of life are sometimes rather presssing.

      You should always remember that not everybody on this list is a native
      speaker of English -- though she has an excellent command of the language,
      English is not Nina's mother tongue. Allowances should be made for the
      occasional linguistic infelicity which would not have been written by
      masters of our language such as yourself.

      > what does and what does not constitute the best way for
      > an individual to hear that he is dead wrong about something
      You, of course, are impeccably qualified to judge such things ?

      Best wishes,
      Stephen Hodge
    • "Kåre A. Lie"
      ... I agree. The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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        At 14:23 03.04.2005 +0200, you wrote:

        >--- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> wrote:
        > > I would like to say that where personal wealth
        > > management is concerned,
        > > anything along this line is fine. However, I believe
        > > the Buddha didn't
        > > intend it to be dogmatic
        >
        >For one thing, he must have been quite aware that not
        >everyone is able to live on only 25% of his or her
        >gross income. I never could, and I don't feel too
        >sorry for being unable to follow the letter of his
        >advice.

        I agree.

        The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a
        book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
        useful to have some stories to illustrate that the Buddha also showed a
        concern for the daily life and economics of ordinary lay people.

        I do not recommend that anyone should take these stories dogmatically. What
        they show, however, is that from a Buddhist point of view lay persons can
        pursue their carreers and earn money with a good conscience, provided they
        earn their money in a rightful way, spend their earnings wisely and also
        use them to help others.

        I found that there are several small dialogues in the AN that illustrate
        this, and I think I'll use the one in DN 69 (IV, VII, 62). But I am
        thankful for the suggestions I got. They pointed me in the right direction.

        Yours,

        Kåre A. Lie
        http://www.lienet.no/

        THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
        an excellent vocabulary.
      • "Kåre A. Lie"
        ... Thank you. I ve got the PTS books in English and the CSCD with the Pali texts, so that is no problem at all. Best regards, Kåre A. Lie
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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          At 11:05 03.04.2005 +0000, you wrote:


          >Kåre,
          >
          >ATI is down at the moment, but if you get to the 8s there are two
          >translations of the Longknee sutta there:
          >
          >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-054a.html

          Thank you. I've got the PTS books in English and the CSCD with the Pali
          texts, so that is no problem at all.

          Best regards,

          Kåre A. Lie
          http://www.lienet.no/

          THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
          an excellent vocabulary.
        • "Kåre A. Lie"
          ... Thank you, Nina. This is also a very interesting dialogue. It is a bit long for my purpose, but I think I will find use for parts of it. Best regards,
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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            At 11:35 03.04.2005 +0200, you wrote:

            >Hi Kåre,
            >op 02-04-2005 14:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:
            >
            > > If someone have
            > > some other suggestions about this or other sayings about the same theme -
            > > householders and economics - I'd be most thankful.
            >N: Ang. Book of Eights, Ch 5, Gotamid, § 4, Longknee or Diighajaanu. Also
            >edited in Wheel no 14. I cannot quote much now: conditions of worldly
            >progress, accomplishment of watchfulness, good friendship, etc.
            >What I like in all these suttas; the advice is very practical for laymen and
            >at the end there are spiritual counsels. The accomplishment of wisdom:
            >insight that realizes impermanence. Satipatthana is implied, and to be
            >developed in daily life. Also when earning one's living, playing music in
            >our case! There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them.
            >Nina.

            Thank you, Nina. This is also a very interesting dialogue. It is a bit long
            for my purpose, but I think I will find use for parts of it.

            Best regards,

            Kåre A. Lie
            http://www.lienet.no/

            THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
            an excellent vocabulary.
          • Ven. Yuttadhammo
            ... Dear Friends, I think another thing to take into consideration here is our extravagent lifestyles in the West that drive up prices of housing, food, etc.
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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              >--- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> wrote:
              > > I would like to say that where personal wealth
              > > management is concerned,
              > > anything along this line is fine. However, I believe
              > > the Buddha didn't
              > > intend it to be dogmatic
              >
              >For one thing, he must have been quite aware that not
              >everyone is able to live on only 25% of his or her
              >gross income. I never could, and I don't feel too
              >sorry for being unable to follow the letter of his
              >advice.

              Dear Friends,

              I think another thing to take into consideration here is our
              extravagent lifestyles in the West that drive up prices of housing,
              food, etc. If someone really wanted to keep to the Buddha's words
              here, they might have to move to a poor country, live in a hut, and
              be quite clever, like the mouse merchant (Jat 4).

              I think it must have been a gutsy thing to say even in the time of the
              Buddha, especially given the commentary's explaination implying that
              we are not actually meant to live on 25% of our income, we are meant
              to live on whatever is left of that 25% after giving alms! (cp
              Vighaasa Jat. 393) It might of course be wise to suggest that the two
              parts to be used for business include income taxes and other taxes,
              which are quite high in developed countries...

              Not to outright suggest that one try to follow this to the letter, but
              to suggest that sometimes we are quick to think the Buddha's teaching
              outdated and impractical when it might in fact just be out of our
              reach at the moment... the story goes that Vessantara was born with
              his hand outstretched, and the first words he uttered were "mother, I
              wish to make some gift, is there anything?" (Jat 547) :) Visayha (Jat
              340) mowed grass to make money when Sakka caused his treasure to
              disappear, and he gave both halves of the money got to beggars when
              asked, six days in a row, before fainting on the seventh day.

              maa bhikkhave pu~n~naana.m bhaayittha. sukhasseta.m, bhikkhave,
              adhivacana.m - yadida.m pu~n~naani. (Iti 1.3.2 Mettasutta)

              amhaaka.m kusalaa kammaa nibbaanapaccayaa hontu,

              Yuttadhammo
            • Ven. Yuttadhammo
              ... From: Stephen Hodge To: Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:10 AM Subject: [Pali] Buddhist
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge@...>
                To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:10 AM
                Subject: [Pali] Buddhist economics


                >
                > Mike wrote:
                >
                >>> "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"
                >> 1. It is for the sake of pointing out by way of analysis of the
                >> response how it was a statement made without thought or was a
                >> pernicious belief held onto by her.
                >
                > I think this is all rather over the top and still not a little
                > offensive or
                > hurtful. To me, it is quite clear from the context that Nina was
                > not saying
                > that one cannot escape from nama-rupa in the Buddhist sense, but
                > they are an
                > ever-present problem that we are burdened with, so as far as I can
                > see she
                > was merely saying that the demands of life are sometimes rather
                > presssing.

                If I may respectfully interject... I would like to affirm Ms. Van
                Gorkom's statement... we cannot escape rupa and nama, as the
                components of "we" are that very rupa and nama. This is why the Lord
                Buddha taught "sabbe dhammaa anattaa". If nibbaana were self, then
                surely we could escape rupa and nama. But since nibbaana is not self,
                there is therefore no escape for "we". "We" has to run around chasing
                after "we" like a dog its tail, and no escape is possible for a dog
                from its tail...

                Through letting go of "we", along with "they", "us", "them", "ours",
                "theirs" (aha.m kara, mama.m kara) there is no more arising of rupa
                and nama, and so there is nothing more to escape from and nothing that
                should escape! But this requires freedom from both ditthi and manas,
                and is not something achieved without striving...

                ime me dve maasakaa honti (these are my two cents).

                Shalom,

                Yuttadhammo

                > You should always remember that not everybody on this list is a
                > native
                > speaker of English -- though she has an excellent command of the
                > language,
                > English is not Nina's mother tongue. Allowances should be made for
                > the
                > occasional linguistic infelicity which would not have been written
                > by
                > masters of our language such as yourself.
                >
                >> what does and what does not constitute the best way for
                >> an individual to hear that he is dead wrong about something
                > You, of course, are impeccably qualified to judge such things ?
                >
                > Best wishes,
                > Stephen Hodge
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Dear Kåre, ... N: That is interesting. I find that the Brahmaviharas help much for our social life. Police officers in Thailand were so interested in this
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
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                  Dear Kåre,
                  op 03-04-2005 22:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:
                  >
                  > The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a
                  > book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
                  > useful to have some stories to illustrate that the Buddha also showed a
                  > concern for the daily life and economics of ordinary lay people.
                  N: That is interesting. I find that the Brahmaviharas help much for our
                  social life. Police officers in Thailand were so interested in this subject,
                  and Acharn Sujin gave them a talk about it. This inspired me to write some
                  dialogues on the Brahma Viharas I had with my husband. This may be too much
                  for the scope of your book. In case you want to see it, it is on:
                  http://www.zolag.co.uk/
                  Nina.
                • Ong Yong Peng
                  Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Kare, Nina, Mike, Rahula, Gunnar, Stephen and friends, Mike: In the Sangaha Sutta, the Buddha gives generosity, kinds words, beneficial
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
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                    Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Kare, Nina, Mike, Rahula, Gunnar, Stephen and
                    friends,

                    Mike: In the Sangaha Sutta, the Buddha gives generosity, kinds words,
                    beneficial help and consistency as the four grounds for the bonds of
                    fellowship. I understand that you have no ill intentions, but I find
                    that there is no need to "corner" Nina for a statement she did not
                    make clear.

                    Otherwise, I do respect what you have done, for pointing the
                    incompleteness of Nina's statement, which may result in some having
                    an incorrect understanding of the Dhamma.

                    As the size of a discussion group grows and the discussion topics get
                    more involved, there is a tendency people shun from pointing out
                    others' mistakes, or correcting their own mistakes. So, I like to
                    take this opportunity to invite members who have never voiced out to
                    come forward, raise questions, and give your opinions, but please do
                    so wisely. This is important, otherwise it defeats the purpose of a
                    discussion group. It even defeats the good name of the Dhamma!

                    Svakkhato Bhagavata Dhammo
                    Sanditthiko Akaliko
                    Ehi-passiko Opanayiko
                    Paccattam veditabbo viññuhi ti.


                    metta,
                    Yong Peng.

                    Sangaha Sutta:
                    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-032.html


                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, olbeggaols wrote:

                    I understand your concern here is to keep the discussion polite.
                  • Ong Yong Peng
                    Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Nina, Kare, Mike, Stephen, Gunnar, Rahula and friends, as I browsed through the ATI site earlier, I come across yet another thread of
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
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                      Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Nina, Kare, Mike, Stephen, Gunnar, Rahula and
                      friends,

                      as I browsed through the ATI site earlier, I come across yet another
                      thread of advice by the Buddha, the Kula Sutta:
                      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-255.html


                      metta,
                      Yong Peng.
                    • "Kåre A. Lie"
                      ... Dear Nina, I very much agree. The Brahmaviharas are very important for our daily life. I have already given them a prominent place in my book manuscript.
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
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                        At 10:50 04.04.2005 +0200, you wrote:

                        >Dear Kåre,
                        >op 03-04-2005 22:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:
                        > >
                        > > The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a
                        > > book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
                        > > useful to have some stories to illustrate that the Buddha also showed a
                        > > concern for the daily life and economics of ordinary lay people.
                        >N: That is interesting. I find that the Brahmaviharas help much for our
                        >social life. Police officers in Thailand were so interested in this subject,
                        >and Acharn Sujin gave them a talk about it. This inspired me to write some
                        >dialogues on the Brahma Viharas I had with my husband. This may be too much
                        >for the scope of your book. In case you want to see it, it is on:
                        >http://www.zolag.co.uk/
                        >Nina.

                        Dear Nina,

                        I very much agree. The Brahmaviharas are very important for our daily life.
                        I have already given them a prominent place in my book manuscript.

                        It was also interesting to read the article you gave a link to. But my book
                        is aiming at people without any special knowledge or background of
                        Buddhism, so I try to keep things a little more simple and less technical.

                        Best regards,

                        Kåre A. Lie
                        http://www.lienet.no/

                        THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                        an excellent vocabulary.
                      • "Kåre A. Lie"
                        ... Thank you. There are many gems of worldly wisdom in the Tipitaka. Best regards, Kåre A. Lie http://www.lienet.no/ THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
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                          At 09:12 04.04.2005 +0000, you wrote:


                          >Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Nina, Kare, Mike, Stephen, Gunnar, Rahula and
                          >friends,
                          >
                          >as I browsed through the ATI site earlier, I come across yet another
                          >thread of advice by the Buddha, the Kula Sutta:
                          >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-255.html
                          >
                          >
                          >metta,
                          >Yong Peng.

                          Thank you. There are many gems of worldly wisdom in the Tipitaka.

                          Best regards,

                          Kåre A. Lie
                          http://www.lienet.no/

                          THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                          an excellent vocabulary.
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