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Re: [Pali] Re: Buddhist economics

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Hi Mike Olds, Sorry to cause misunderstandings. I meant something different from what you read. Nama and rupa are everywhere and they can be objects of
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
      Hi Mike Olds,
      Sorry to cause misunderstandings. I meant something different from what you
      read.
      Nama and rupa are everywhere and they can be objects of understanding. We
      cannot avoid them, because they are right here. But, the development of
      right understanding of them will eventually lead to the end of samsara, and
      then there will not be the arising of nama and rupa anymore.
      I just saw your other post, but no need to worry. We are just studying
      Dhamma.
      Nina.
      op 03-04-2005 13:05 schreef olbeggaols op MikeOlds@...:

      > With all the best wishes for you personally, this has got to be
      > either a thoughtless statement on your part or an outright pernicious
      > belief that you should let go of, that is, your statement that:
      >
      > "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"
      >
      > What is your understanding of the goal of what the Buddha taught is
      > if it isn't to escape nama and rupa?
      >
      > It just comes down to what I would call a discouraging word.
    • Stephen Hodge
      ... I think this is all rather over the top and still not a little offensive or hurtful. To me, it is quite clear from the context that Nina was not saying
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
        Mike wrote:

        >> "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"
        > 1. It is for the sake of pointing out by way of analysis of the
        > response how it was a statement made without thought or was a
        > pernicious belief held onto by her.

        I think this is all rather over the top and still not a little offensive or
        hurtful. To me, it is quite clear from the context that Nina was not saying
        that one cannot escape from nama-rupa in the Buddhist sense, but they are an
        ever-present problem that we are burdened with, so as far as I can see she
        was merely saying that the demands of life are sometimes rather presssing.

        You should always remember that not everybody on this list is a native
        speaker of English -- though she has an excellent command of the language,
        English is not Nina's mother tongue. Allowances should be made for the
        occasional linguistic infelicity which would not have been written by
        masters of our language such as yourself.

        > what does and what does not constitute the best way for
        > an individual to hear that he is dead wrong about something
        You, of course, are impeccably qualified to judge such things ?

        Best wishes,
        Stephen Hodge
      • "Kåre A. Lie"
        ... I agree. The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
          At 14:23 03.04.2005 +0200, you wrote:

          >--- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> wrote:
          > > I would like to say that where personal wealth
          > > management is concerned,
          > > anything along this line is fine. However, I believe
          > > the Buddha didn't
          > > intend it to be dogmatic
          >
          >For one thing, he must have been quite aware that not
          >everyone is able to live on only 25% of his or her
          >gross income. I never could, and I don't feel too
          >sorry for being unable to follow the letter of his
          >advice.

          I agree.

          The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a
          book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
          useful to have some stories to illustrate that the Buddha also showed a
          concern for the daily life and economics of ordinary lay people.

          I do not recommend that anyone should take these stories dogmatically. What
          they show, however, is that from a Buddhist point of view lay persons can
          pursue their carreers and earn money with a good conscience, provided they
          earn their money in a rightful way, spend their earnings wisely and also
          use them to help others.

          I found that there are several small dialogues in the AN that illustrate
          this, and I think I'll use the one in DN 69 (IV, VII, 62). But I am
          thankful for the suggestions I got. They pointed me in the right direction.

          Yours,

          Kåre A. Lie
          http://www.lienet.no/

          THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
          an excellent vocabulary.
        • "Kåre A. Lie"
          ... Thank you. I ve got the PTS books in English and the CSCD with the Pali texts, so that is no problem at all. Best regards, Kåre A. Lie
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
            At 11:05 03.04.2005 +0000, you wrote:


            >Kåre,
            >
            >ATI is down at the moment, but if you get to the 8s there are two
            >translations of the Longknee sutta there:
            >
            >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-054a.html

            Thank you. I've got the PTS books in English and the CSCD with the Pali
            texts, so that is no problem at all.

            Best regards,

            Kåre A. Lie
            http://www.lienet.no/

            THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
            an excellent vocabulary.
          • "Kåre A. Lie"
            ... Thank you, Nina. This is also a very interesting dialogue. It is a bit long for my purpose, but I think I will find use for parts of it. Best regards,
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
              At 11:35 03.04.2005 +0200, you wrote:

              >Hi Kåre,
              >op 02-04-2005 14:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:
              >
              > > If someone have
              > > some other suggestions about this or other sayings about the same theme -
              > > householders and economics - I'd be most thankful.
              >N: Ang. Book of Eights, Ch 5, Gotamid, § 4, Longknee or Diighajaanu. Also
              >edited in Wheel no 14. I cannot quote much now: conditions of worldly
              >progress, accomplishment of watchfulness, good friendship, etc.
              >What I like in all these suttas; the advice is very practical for laymen and
              >at the end there are spiritual counsels. The accomplishment of wisdom:
              >insight that realizes impermanence. Satipatthana is implied, and to be
              >developed in daily life. Also when earning one's living, playing music in
              >our case! There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them.
              >Nina.

              Thank you, Nina. This is also a very interesting dialogue. It is a bit long
              for my purpose, but I think I will find use for parts of it.

              Best regards,

              Kåre A. Lie
              http://www.lienet.no/

              THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
              an excellent vocabulary.
            • Ven. Yuttadhammo
              ... Dear Friends, I think another thing to take into consideration here is our extravagent lifestyles in the West that drive up prices of housing, food, etc.
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                >--- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> wrote:
                > > I would like to say that where personal wealth
                > > management is concerned,
                > > anything along this line is fine. However, I believe
                > > the Buddha didn't
                > > intend it to be dogmatic
                >
                >For one thing, he must have been quite aware that not
                >everyone is able to live on only 25% of his or her
                >gross income. I never could, and I don't feel too
                >sorry for being unable to follow the letter of his
                >advice.

                Dear Friends,

                I think another thing to take into consideration here is our
                extravagent lifestyles in the West that drive up prices of housing,
                food, etc. If someone really wanted to keep to the Buddha's words
                here, they might have to move to a poor country, live in a hut, and
                be quite clever, like the mouse merchant (Jat 4).

                I think it must have been a gutsy thing to say even in the time of the
                Buddha, especially given the commentary's explaination implying that
                we are not actually meant to live on 25% of our income, we are meant
                to live on whatever is left of that 25% after giving alms! (cp
                Vighaasa Jat. 393) It might of course be wise to suggest that the two
                parts to be used for business include income taxes and other taxes,
                which are quite high in developed countries...

                Not to outright suggest that one try to follow this to the letter, but
                to suggest that sometimes we are quick to think the Buddha's teaching
                outdated and impractical when it might in fact just be out of our
                reach at the moment... the story goes that Vessantara was born with
                his hand outstretched, and the first words he uttered were "mother, I
                wish to make some gift, is there anything?" (Jat 547) :) Visayha (Jat
                340) mowed grass to make money when Sakka caused his treasure to
                disappear, and he gave both halves of the money got to beggars when
                asked, six days in a row, before fainting on the seventh day.

                maa bhikkhave pu~n~naana.m bhaayittha. sukhasseta.m, bhikkhave,
                adhivacana.m - yadida.m pu~n~naani. (Iti 1.3.2 Mettasutta)

                amhaaka.m kusalaa kammaa nibbaanapaccayaa hontu,

                Yuttadhammo
              • Ven. Yuttadhammo
                ... From: Stephen Hodge To: Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:10 AM Subject: [Pali] Buddhist
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge@...>
                  To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:10 AM
                  Subject: [Pali] Buddhist economics


                  >
                  > Mike wrote:
                  >
                  >>> "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"
                  >> 1. It is for the sake of pointing out by way of analysis of the
                  >> response how it was a statement made without thought or was a
                  >> pernicious belief held onto by her.
                  >
                  > I think this is all rather over the top and still not a little
                  > offensive or
                  > hurtful. To me, it is quite clear from the context that Nina was
                  > not saying
                  > that one cannot escape from nama-rupa in the Buddhist sense, but
                  > they are an
                  > ever-present problem that we are burdened with, so as far as I can
                  > see she
                  > was merely saying that the demands of life are sometimes rather
                  > presssing.

                  If I may respectfully interject... I would like to affirm Ms. Van
                  Gorkom's statement... we cannot escape rupa and nama, as the
                  components of "we" are that very rupa and nama. This is why the Lord
                  Buddha taught "sabbe dhammaa anattaa". If nibbaana were self, then
                  surely we could escape rupa and nama. But since nibbaana is not self,
                  there is therefore no escape for "we". "We" has to run around chasing
                  after "we" like a dog its tail, and no escape is possible for a dog
                  from its tail...

                  Through letting go of "we", along with "they", "us", "them", "ours",
                  "theirs" (aha.m kara, mama.m kara) there is no more arising of rupa
                  and nama, and so there is nothing more to escape from and nothing that
                  should escape! But this requires freedom from both ditthi and manas,
                  and is not something achieved without striving...

                  ime me dve maasakaa honti (these are my two cents).

                  Shalom,

                  Yuttadhammo

                  > You should always remember that not everybody on this list is a
                  > native
                  > speaker of English -- though she has an excellent command of the
                  > language,
                  > English is not Nina's mother tongue. Allowances should be made for
                  > the
                  > occasional linguistic infelicity which would not have been written
                  > by
                  > masters of our language such as yourself.
                  >
                  >> what does and what does not constitute the best way for
                  >> an individual to hear that he is dead wrong about something
                  > You, of course, are impeccably qualified to judge such things ?
                  >
                  > Best wishes,
                  > Stephen Hodge
                • Nina van Gorkom
                  Dear Kåre, ... N: That is interesting. I find that the Brahmaviharas help much for our social life. Police officers in Thailand were so interested in this
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
                    Dear Kåre,
                    op 03-04-2005 22:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:
                    >
                    > The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a
                    > book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
                    > useful to have some stories to illustrate that the Buddha also showed a
                    > concern for the daily life and economics of ordinary lay people.
                    N: That is interesting. I find that the Brahmaviharas help much for our
                    social life. Police officers in Thailand were so interested in this subject,
                    and Acharn Sujin gave them a talk about it. This inspired me to write some
                    dialogues on the Brahma Viharas I had with my husband. This may be too much
                    for the scope of your book. In case you want to see it, it is on:
                    http://www.zolag.co.uk/
                    Nina.
                  • Ong Yong Peng
                    Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Kare, Nina, Mike, Rahula, Gunnar, Stephen and friends, Mike: In the Sangaha Sutta, the Buddha gives generosity, kinds words, beneficial
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
                      Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Kare, Nina, Mike, Rahula, Gunnar, Stephen and
                      friends,

                      Mike: In the Sangaha Sutta, the Buddha gives generosity, kinds words,
                      beneficial help and consistency as the four grounds for the bonds of
                      fellowship. I understand that you have no ill intentions, but I find
                      that there is no need to "corner" Nina for a statement she did not
                      make clear.

                      Otherwise, I do respect what you have done, for pointing the
                      incompleteness of Nina's statement, which may result in some having
                      an incorrect understanding of the Dhamma.

                      As the size of a discussion group grows and the discussion topics get
                      more involved, there is a tendency people shun from pointing out
                      others' mistakes, or correcting their own mistakes. So, I like to
                      take this opportunity to invite members who have never voiced out to
                      come forward, raise questions, and give your opinions, but please do
                      so wisely. This is important, otherwise it defeats the purpose of a
                      discussion group. It even defeats the good name of the Dhamma!

                      Svakkhato Bhagavata Dhammo
                      Sanditthiko Akaliko
                      Ehi-passiko Opanayiko
                      Paccattam veditabbo viññuhi ti.


                      metta,
                      Yong Peng.

                      Sangaha Sutta:
                      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-032.html


                      --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, olbeggaols wrote:

                      I understand your concern here is to keep the discussion polite.
                    • Ong Yong Peng
                      Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Nina, Kare, Mike, Stephen, Gunnar, Rahula and friends, as I browsed through the ATI site earlier, I come across yet another thread of
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
                        Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Nina, Kare, Mike, Stephen, Gunnar, Rahula and
                        friends,

                        as I browsed through the ATI site earlier, I come across yet another
                        thread of advice by the Buddha, the Kula Sutta:
                        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-255.html


                        metta,
                        Yong Peng.
                      • "Kåre A. Lie"
                        ... Dear Nina, I very much agree. The Brahmaviharas are very important for our daily life. I have already given them a prominent place in my book manuscript.
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
                          At 10:50 04.04.2005 +0200, you wrote:

                          >Dear Kåre,
                          >op 03-04-2005 22:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:
                          > >
                          > > The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a
                          > > book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
                          > > useful to have some stories to illustrate that the Buddha also showed a
                          > > concern for the daily life and economics of ordinary lay people.
                          >N: That is interesting. I find that the Brahmaviharas help much for our
                          >social life. Police officers in Thailand were so interested in this subject,
                          >and Acharn Sujin gave them a talk about it. This inspired me to write some
                          >dialogues on the Brahma Viharas I had with my husband. This may be too much
                          >for the scope of your book. In case you want to see it, it is on:
                          >http://www.zolag.co.uk/
                          >Nina.

                          Dear Nina,

                          I very much agree. The Brahmaviharas are very important for our daily life.
                          I have already given them a prominent place in my book manuscript.

                          It was also interesting to read the article you gave a link to. But my book
                          is aiming at people without any special knowledge or background of
                          Buddhism, so I try to keep things a little more simple and less technical.

                          Best regards,

                          Kåre A. Lie
                          http://www.lienet.no/

                          THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                          an excellent vocabulary.
                        • "Kåre A. Lie"
                          ... Thank you. There are many gems of worldly wisdom in the Tipitaka. Best regards, Kåre A. Lie http://www.lienet.no/ THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
                            At 09:12 04.04.2005 +0000, you wrote:


                            >Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Nina, Kare, Mike, Stephen, Gunnar, Rahula and
                            >friends,
                            >
                            >as I browsed through the ATI site earlier, I come across yet another
                            >thread of advice by the Buddha, the Kula Sutta:
                            >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-255.html
                            >
                            >
                            >metta,
                            >Yong Peng.

                            Thank you. There are many gems of worldly wisdom in the Tipitaka.

                            Best regards,

                            Kåre A. Lie
                            http://www.lienet.no/

                            THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                            an excellent vocabulary.
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