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Re: Buddhist economics

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  • olbeggaols
    Kåre, ATI is down at the moment, but if you get to the 8s there are two translations of the Longknee sutta there:
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
      Kåre,

      ATI is down at the moment, but if you get to the 8s there are two
      translations of the Longknee sutta there:

      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-054a.html

      Nina,

      With all the best wishes for you personally, this has got to be
      either a thoughtless statement on your part or an outright pernicious
      belief that you should let go of, that is, your statement that:

      "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"

      What is your understanding of the goal of what the Buddha taught is
      if it isn't to escape nama and rupa?

      It just comes down to what I would call a discouraging word.
    • Ong Yong Peng
      Dear Kare, Nina, Mike and friends, Mike: I can understanding your style of writing emails. I think it is totally a matter of personal taste the way an
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
        Dear Kare, Nina, Mike and friends,

        Mike: I can understanding your style of writing emails. I think it is
        totally a matter of personal taste the way an individual compose his
        messages. However, I do sometimes find them too blunt. It is still ok
        to talk rough between guys, provided no one gets personal. However,
        please be mindful that there are ladies on the list too. Therefore, I
        would suggest that we go a bit light-hearted in our exchanges.

        Otherwise, I think you have raised a valid point. But, then, Nina may
        have other opinions.

        metta,
        Yong Peng.


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, olbeggaols wrote:

        > "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"

        What is your understanding of the goal of what the Buddha taught is
        if it isn't to escape nama and rupa?
      • Gunnar Gällmo
        ... For one thing, he must have been quite aware that not everyone is able to live on only 25% of his or her gross income. I never could, and I don t feel too
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
          --- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> wrote:
          > I would like to say that where personal wealth
          > management is concerned,
          > anything along this line is fine. However, I believe
          > the Buddha didn't
          > intend it to be dogmatic

          For one thing, he must have been quite aware that not
          everyone is able to live on only 25% of his or her
          gross income. I never could, and I don't feel too
          sorry for being unable to follow the letter of his
          advice.

          Gunnar


          gunnargallmo@...
        • olbeggaols
          Yong Peng, I understand your concern here is to keep the discussion polite. Reviewing the post, I imagine you would have preferred I had left out the: With
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
            Yong Peng,

            I understand your concern here is to keep the discussion polite.

            Reviewing the post, I imagine you would have preferred I had left out
            the:

            "With all the best wishes for you personally, this has got to be
            either a thoughtless statement on your part or an outright pernicious
            belief that you should let go of, that is, your statement that:

            "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"

            and the closing:

            "It just comes down to what I would call a discouraging word."

            That would have left:

            "What is your understanding of the goal of what the Buddha taught is
            if it isn't to escape nama and rupa?"

            And that would most likely have been a better way to go, all things
            considered, so if Nina will accept a retraction I would re-state the
            post:

            Nina:

            You say: "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"

            In reference to that I ask: "What is your understanding of the goal
            of what the Buddha taught is if it isn't to escape nama and rupa?"

            Now if I am not mistaken, Nina is no idiot, and she sees exactly that
            my intent is in this attempt to enter into debate with her:

            1. It is for the sake of pointing out by way of analysis of the
            response how it was a statement made without thought or was a
            pernicious belief held onto by her.

            2. It is for the sake of pointing out to those who are just learning
            how such a view is not Dhamma, (it's not even realistic in ordinary
            terms) and that it is one of our duties in our concern for the
            preservation of Dhamma to point out what is and what is not Dhamma.

            It is a matter of judgment, in my judgment, as to whether it is less
            blunt to be blunt and get the cards out on the table and by that
            point out the purposes of raising the issue or to be what appears to
            me to be excessively circumspect and risk loss of the point
            altogether while having gained nothing in terms of what Nina (and
            anyone else thinking about the matter) understands to be the intent.

            I actually fall on the side of being more circumspect and have been
            working on that issue in my posts; it goes against my upbringing and
            perception of what does and what does not constitute the best way for
            an individual to hear that he is dead wrong about something, but it
            is definately a better way when considering my own peace of mind and
            the hassles of dealing with misunderstanding my intentions.

            The other issue here is: since such statements as the one made by
            Nina here constitute a 'blunt' attack on many people's belief systems
            (within the Dhamma) (sort of my parallel to 'there are women
            present') shouldn't policy be just as thorough in coming down on such
            as on coming down on poorly constructed reaction to such? Equal
            treatment to all according to the same standard is one of the four
            basics for developing friendships.
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Hi Mike Olds, Sorry to cause misunderstandings. I meant something different from what you read. Nama and rupa are everywhere and they can be objects of
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
              Hi Mike Olds,
              Sorry to cause misunderstandings. I meant something different from what you
              read.
              Nama and rupa are everywhere and they can be objects of understanding. We
              cannot avoid them, because they are right here. But, the development of
              right understanding of them will eventually lead to the end of samsara, and
              then there will not be the arising of nama and rupa anymore.
              I just saw your other post, but no need to worry. We are just studying
              Dhamma.
              Nina.
              op 03-04-2005 13:05 schreef olbeggaols op MikeOlds@...:

              > With all the best wishes for you personally, this has got to be
              > either a thoughtless statement on your part or an outright pernicious
              > belief that you should let go of, that is, your statement that:
              >
              > "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"
              >
              > What is your understanding of the goal of what the Buddha taught is
              > if it isn't to escape nama and rupa?
              >
              > It just comes down to what I would call a discouraging word.
            • Stephen Hodge
              ... I think this is all rather over the top and still not a little offensive or hurtful. To me, it is quite clear from the context that Nina was not saying
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                Mike wrote:

                >> "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"
                > 1. It is for the sake of pointing out by way of analysis of the
                > response how it was a statement made without thought or was a
                > pernicious belief held onto by her.

                I think this is all rather over the top and still not a little offensive or
                hurtful. To me, it is quite clear from the context that Nina was not saying
                that one cannot escape from nama-rupa in the Buddhist sense, but they are an
                ever-present problem that we are burdened with, so as far as I can see she
                was merely saying that the demands of life are sometimes rather presssing.

                You should always remember that not everybody on this list is a native
                speaker of English -- though she has an excellent command of the language,
                English is not Nina's mother tongue. Allowances should be made for the
                occasional linguistic infelicity which would not have been written by
                masters of our language such as yourself.

                > what does and what does not constitute the best way for
                > an individual to hear that he is dead wrong about something
                You, of course, are impeccably qualified to judge such things ?

                Best wishes,
                Stephen Hodge
              • "Kåre A. Lie"
                ... I agree. The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                  At 14:23 03.04.2005 +0200, you wrote:

                  >--- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> wrote:
                  > > I would like to say that where personal wealth
                  > > management is concerned,
                  > > anything along this line is fine. However, I believe
                  > > the Buddha didn't
                  > > intend it to be dogmatic
                  >
                  >For one thing, he must have been quite aware that not
                  >everyone is able to live on only 25% of his or her
                  >gross income. I never could, and I don't feel too
                  >sorry for being unable to follow the letter of his
                  >advice.

                  I agree.

                  The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a
                  book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
                  useful to have some stories to illustrate that the Buddha also showed a
                  concern for the daily life and economics of ordinary lay people.

                  I do not recommend that anyone should take these stories dogmatically. What
                  they show, however, is that from a Buddhist point of view lay persons can
                  pursue their carreers and earn money with a good conscience, provided they
                  earn their money in a rightful way, spend their earnings wisely and also
                  use them to help others.

                  I found that there are several small dialogues in the AN that illustrate
                  this, and I think I'll use the one in DN 69 (IV, VII, 62). But I am
                  thankful for the suggestions I got. They pointed me in the right direction.

                  Yours,

                  Kåre A. Lie
                  http://www.lienet.no/

                  THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                  an excellent vocabulary.
                • "Kåre A. Lie"
                  ... Thank you. I ve got the PTS books in English and the CSCD with the Pali texts, so that is no problem at all. Best regards, Kåre A. Lie
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                    At 11:05 03.04.2005 +0000, you wrote:


                    >Kåre,
                    >
                    >ATI is down at the moment, but if you get to the 8s there are two
                    >translations of the Longknee sutta there:
                    >
                    >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-054a.html

                    Thank you. I've got the PTS books in English and the CSCD with the Pali
                    texts, so that is no problem at all.

                    Best regards,

                    Kåre A. Lie
                    http://www.lienet.no/

                    THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                    an excellent vocabulary.
                  • "Kåre A. Lie"
                    ... Thank you, Nina. This is also a very interesting dialogue. It is a bit long for my purpose, but I think I will find use for parts of it. Best regards,
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                      At 11:35 03.04.2005 +0200, you wrote:

                      >Hi Kåre,
                      >op 02-04-2005 14:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:
                      >
                      > > If someone have
                      > > some other suggestions about this or other sayings about the same theme -
                      > > householders and economics - I'd be most thankful.
                      >N: Ang. Book of Eights, Ch 5, Gotamid, § 4, Longknee or Diighajaanu. Also
                      >edited in Wheel no 14. I cannot quote much now: conditions of worldly
                      >progress, accomplishment of watchfulness, good friendship, etc.
                      >What I like in all these suttas; the advice is very practical for laymen and
                      >at the end there are spiritual counsels. The accomplishment of wisdom:
                      >insight that realizes impermanence. Satipatthana is implied, and to be
                      >developed in daily life. Also when earning one's living, playing music in
                      >our case! There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them.
                      >Nina.

                      Thank you, Nina. This is also a very interesting dialogue. It is a bit long
                      for my purpose, but I think I will find use for parts of it.

                      Best regards,

                      Kåre A. Lie
                      http://www.lienet.no/

                      THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                      an excellent vocabulary.
                    • Ven. Yuttadhammo
                      ... Dear Friends, I think another thing to take into consideration here is our extravagent lifestyles in the West that drive up prices of housing, food, etc.
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                        >--- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> wrote:
                        > > I would like to say that where personal wealth
                        > > management is concerned,
                        > > anything along this line is fine. However, I believe
                        > > the Buddha didn't
                        > > intend it to be dogmatic
                        >
                        >For one thing, he must have been quite aware that not
                        >everyone is able to live on only 25% of his or her
                        >gross income. I never could, and I don't feel too
                        >sorry for being unable to follow the letter of his
                        >advice.

                        Dear Friends,

                        I think another thing to take into consideration here is our
                        extravagent lifestyles in the West that drive up prices of housing,
                        food, etc. If someone really wanted to keep to the Buddha's words
                        here, they might have to move to a poor country, live in a hut, and
                        be quite clever, like the mouse merchant (Jat 4).

                        I think it must have been a gutsy thing to say even in the time of the
                        Buddha, especially given the commentary's explaination implying that
                        we are not actually meant to live on 25% of our income, we are meant
                        to live on whatever is left of that 25% after giving alms! (cp
                        Vighaasa Jat. 393) It might of course be wise to suggest that the two
                        parts to be used for business include income taxes and other taxes,
                        which are quite high in developed countries...

                        Not to outright suggest that one try to follow this to the letter, but
                        to suggest that sometimes we are quick to think the Buddha's teaching
                        outdated and impractical when it might in fact just be out of our
                        reach at the moment... the story goes that Vessantara was born with
                        his hand outstretched, and the first words he uttered were "mother, I
                        wish to make some gift, is there anything?" (Jat 547) :) Visayha (Jat
                        340) mowed grass to make money when Sakka caused his treasure to
                        disappear, and he gave both halves of the money got to beggars when
                        asked, six days in a row, before fainting on the seventh day.

                        maa bhikkhave pu~n~naana.m bhaayittha. sukhasseta.m, bhikkhave,
                        adhivacana.m - yadida.m pu~n~naani. (Iti 1.3.2 Mettasutta)

                        amhaaka.m kusalaa kammaa nibbaanapaccayaa hontu,

                        Yuttadhammo
                      • Ven. Yuttadhammo
                        ... From: Stephen Hodge To: Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:10 AM Subject: [Pali] Buddhist
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge@...>
                          To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:10 AM
                          Subject: [Pali] Buddhist economics


                          >
                          > Mike wrote:
                          >
                          >>> "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"
                          >> 1. It is for the sake of pointing out by way of analysis of the
                          >> response how it was a statement made without thought or was a
                          >> pernicious belief held onto by her.
                          >
                          > I think this is all rather over the top and still not a little
                          > offensive or
                          > hurtful. To me, it is quite clear from the context that Nina was
                          > not saying
                          > that one cannot escape from nama-rupa in the Buddhist sense, but
                          > they are an
                          > ever-present problem that we are burdened with, so as far as I can
                          > see she
                          > was merely saying that the demands of life are sometimes rather
                          > presssing.

                          If I may respectfully interject... I would like to affirm Ms. Van
                          Gorkom's statement... we cannot escape rupa and nama, as the
                          components of "we" are that very rupa and nama. This is why the Lord
                          Buddha taught "sabbe dhammaa anattaa". If nibbaana were self, then
                          surely we could escape rupa and nama. But since nibbaana is not self,
                          there is therefore no escape for "we". "We" has to run around chasing
                          after "we" like a dog its tail, and no escape is possible for a dog
                          from its tail...

                          Through letting go of "we", along with "they", "us", "them", "ours",
                          "theirs" (aha.m kara, mama.m kara) there is no more arising of rupa
                          and nama, and so there is nothing more to escape from and nothing that
                          should escape! But this requires freedom from both ditthi and manas,
                          and is not something achieved without striving...

                          ime me dve maasakaa honti (these are my two cents).

                          Shalom,

                          Yuttadhammo

                          > You should always remember that not everybody on this list is a
                          > native
                          > speaker of English -- though she has an excellent command of the
                          > language,
                          > English is not Nina's mother tongue. Allowances should be made for
                          > the
                          > occasional linguistic infelicity which would not have been written
                          > by
                          > masters of our language such as yourself.
                          >
                          >> what does and what does not constitute the best way for
                          >> an individual to hear that he is dead wrong about something
                          > You, of course, are impeccably qualified to judge such things ?
                          >
                          > Best wishes,
                          > Stephen Hodge
                        • Nina van Gorkom
                          Dear Kåre, ... N: That is interesting. I find that the Brahmaviharas help much for our social life. Police officers in Thailand were so interested in this
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
                            Dear Kåre,
                            op 03-04-2005 22:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:
                            >
                            > The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a
                            > book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
                            > useful to have some stories to illustrate that the Buddha also showed a
                            > concern for the daily life and economics of ordinary lay people.
                            N: That is interesting. I find that the Brahmaviharas help much for our
                            social life. Police officers in Thailand were so interested in this subject,
                            and Acharn Sujin gave them a talk about it. This inspired me to write some
                            dialogues on the Brahma Viharas I had with my husband. This may be too much
                            for the scope of your book. In case you want to see it, it is on:
                            http://www.zolag.co.uk/
                            Nina.
                          • Ong Yong Peng
                            Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Kare, Nina, Mike, Rahula, Gunnar, Stephen and friends, Mike: In the Sangaha Sutta, the Buddha gives generosity, kinds words, beneficial
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
                              Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Kare, Nina, Mike, Rahula, Gunnar, Stephen and
                              friends,

                              Mike: In the Sangaha Sutta, the Buddha gives generosity, kinds words,
                              beneficial help and consistency as the four grounds for the bonds of
                              fellowship. I understand that you have no ill intentions, but I find
                              that there is no need to "corner" Nina for a statement she did not
                              make clear.

                              Otherwise, I do respect what you have done, for pointing the
                              incompleteness of Nina's statement, which may result in some having
                              an incorrect understanding of the Dhamma.

                              As the size of a discussion group grows and the discussion topics get
                              more involved, there is a tendency people shun from pointing out
                              others' mistakes, or correcting their own mistakes. So, I like to
                              take this opportunity to invite members who have never voiced out to
                              come forward, raise questions, and give your opinions, but please do
                              so wisely. This is important, otherwise it defeats the purpose of a
                              discussion group. It even defeats the good name of the Dhamma!

                              Svakkhato Bhagavata Dhammo
                              Sanditthiko Akaliko
                              Ehi-passiko Opanayiko
                              Paccattam veditabbo viññuhi ti.


                              metta,
                              Yong Peng.

                              Sangaha Sutta:
                              http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-032.html


                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, olbeggaols wrote:

                              I understand your concern here is to keep the discussion polite.
                            • Ong Yong Peng
                              Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Nina, Kare, Mike, Stephen, Gunnar, Rahula and friends, as I browsed through the ATI site earlier, I come across yet another thread of
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
                                Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Nina, Kare, Mike, Stephen, Gunnar, Rahula and
                                friends,

                                as I browsed through the ATI site earlier, I come across yet another
                                thread of advice by the Buddha, the Kula Sutta:
                                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-255.html


                                metta,
                                Yong Peng.
                              • "Kåre A. Lie"
                                ... Dear Nina, I very much agree. The Brahmaviharas are very important for our daily life. I have already given them a prominent place in my book manuscript.
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
                                  At 10:50 04.04.2005 +0200, you wrote:

                                  >Dear Kåre,
                                  >op 03-04-2005 22:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:
                                  > >
                                  > > The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a
                                  > > book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
                                  > > useful to have some stories to illustrate that the Buddha also showed a
                                  > > concern for the daily life and economics of ordinary lay people.
                                  >N: That is interesting. I find that the Brahmaviharas help much for our
                                  >social life. Police officers in Thailand were so interested in this subject,
                                  >and Acharn Sujin gave them a talk about it. This inspired me to write some
                                  >dialogues on the Brahma Viharas I had with my husband. This may be too much
                                  >for the scope of your book. In case you want to see it, it is on:
                                  >http://www.zolag.co.uk/
                                  >Nina.

                                  Dear Nina,

                                  I very much agree. The Brahmaviharas are very important for our daily life.
                                  I have already given them a prominent place in my book manuscript.

                                  It was also interesting to read the article you gave a link to. But my book
                                  is aiming at people without any special knowledge or background of
                                  Buddhism, so I try to keep things a little more simple and less technical.

                                  Best regards,

                                  Kåre A. Lie
                                  http://www.lienet.no/

                                  THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                                  an excellent vocabulary.
                                • "Kåre A. Lie"
                                  ... Thank you. There are many gems of worldly wisdom in the Tipitaka. Best regards, Kåre A. Lie http://www.lienet.no/ THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
                                    At 09:12 04.04.2005 +0000, you wrote:


                                    >Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Nina, Kare, Mike, Stephen, Gunnar, Rahula and
                                    >friends,
                                    >
                                    >as I browsed through the ATI site earlier, I come across yet another
                                    >thread of advice by the Buddha, the Kula Sutta:
                                    >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-255.html
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >metta,
                                    >Yong Peng.

                                    Thank you. There are many gems of worldly wisdom in the Tipitaka.

                                    Best regards,

                                    Kåre A. Lie
                                    http://www.lienet.no/

                                    THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                                    an excellent vocabulary.
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