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Re: [Pali] Buddhist economics

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  • "Kåre A. Lie"
    ... I appreciate the help I already have got with this question. I faintly remember that the Buddha also said something else about housholders and economics,
    Message 1 of 27 , Apr 2, 2005
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      At 03:00 02.04.2005 -0800, you wrote:


      >D.III.188
      >
      >"Kåre A. Lie" <alberlie@...> wrote:Dear friends,
      >
      >I hope some of you can help me find a story in the Tipitaka.
      >
      >Once the Buddha said something about how a wise householder should invest
      >part of his money in his business, save a part of it, and spend a part of
      >it on himself and his family and on dana. This is how I remember it, but I
      >can not remember where in the Tipitaka I can find it.
      >
      >Can someone please help?

      I appreciate the help I already have got with this question. I faintly
      remember that the Buddha also said something else about housholders and
      economics, that householders could enjoy their money with a good conscience
      if it was earned by rightful means, or something similar. If someone have
      some other suggestions about this or other sayings about the same theme -
      householders and economics - I'd be most thankful.

      Best regards,

      Kåre A. Lie
      http://www.lienet.no/

      THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
      an excellent vocabulary.
    • olbeggaols
      Kåre The Book of Fives Sutta 41 On Make n Mula I HEAR TELL: Once upon a time the Lucky Man, Savatthi-town, Jeta Woods, Anathapindika Park, came a revisit n.
      Message 2 of 27 , Apr 2, 2005
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        Kåre



        The Book of Fives
        Sutta 41
        On Make'n Mula


        I HEAR TELL:

        Once upon a time the Lucky Man, Savatthi-town, Jeta Woods,
        Anathapindika Park, came a revisit'n.
        There, Anathapindika, the housefather, came to pay a call, and,
        after paying respect with closed palms,
        he sat on a low seat to one side
        at a respectful distance,
        and Bhaggava said this to him:

        "Housefather!
        There are these five reasons for getting rich.
        What five?"

        "In the case of the first case
        a student of the Aristocrats gets rich
        in a just, lawful manner;
        by the strength of his arm,
        the sweat of his brow;
        hard work,
        energy,
        enterprise and
        intelligence.

        With his wealth so earned
        he makes himself happy
        and he is able to sustain that happiness;
        he makes his parents happy
        and he is able to sustain their happiness;
        he makes his wife and children happy
        and he is able to sustain their happiness;
        he makes his employees happy
        and he is able to sustain their happiness.

        This is the first case.

        In the case of the second case,
        with riches so gotten,
        he makes his friends and companions happy
        and he is able to sustain their happiness.

        This is the second case.

        In the case of the third case,
        with riches so gotten,
        he is able to set up protections
        against loss through disaster,
        fire,
        water,
        kings,
        robbers,
        enemies and
        greedy heirs.

        This is the third case.

        In the case of the fourth case,
        with riches so gotten,
        he makes the five-dimensional offering ceremony,
        offering gifts and nourishment,
        remembrance and gratitude to:
        kinfolk,
        friends,
        ancestors,
        kings,
        and the gods.

        This is the fourth case.

        Again, in addition,
        with riches so gotten,
        he makes gifts to shaman and godly men;
        men of modest demeanor
        who have let go of lazy ways,
        bearing all with patience,
        men who have stilled,
        calmed,
        controlled the self,
        perfected the self,
        abandoned the self;
        gifts aimed at the high,
        the godly,
        resulting in happiness,
        leading to heavenly realms.

        This is the fifth case.

        These are the five reasons for getting rich.

        Furthermore, householder,
        should the wealth of such a one,
        having gathered wealth
        with these five reasons in mind,
        come to destruction,
        he may rightly think:
        'At least this wealth now lost
        was gathered for righteous reasons.'

        And he will find
        he is without shame or regret.

        But if his wealth should grow
        he may think:
        'This wealth is growing,
        and I am one who grows his wealth
        for righteous reasons.'

        And in this way
        he will have protected himself
        from worry from either cause.
      • "Kåre A. Lie"
        ... Exactly the text that was lurking somewhere in the deeper recesses of my failing memory! Thank you very much! Best regards, Kåre A. Lie
        Message 3 of 27 , Apr 2, 2005
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          At 13:41 02.04.2005 +0000, olbeggaols wrote:


          >Kåre
          >
          >
          >
          >The Book of Fives
          >Sutta 41
          >On Make'n Mula
          >
          >
          >I HEAR TELL:
          >
          >Once upon a time the Lucky Man, Savatthi-town, Jeta Woods,
          >Anathapindika Park, came a revisit'n.
          >There, Anathapindika, the housefather, came to pay a call, and,
          >after paying respect with closed palms,
          >he sat on a low seat to one side
          >at a respectful distance,
          >and Bhaggava said this to him:
          >
          >"Housefather!
          >There are these five reasons for getting rich.
          >What five?"
          >
          >"In the case of the first case
          >a student of the Aristocrats gets rich
          >in a just, lawful manner;
          >by the strength of his arm,
          >the sweat of his brow;
          >hard work,
          >energy,
          >enterprise and
          >intelligence.
          >
          >With his wealth so earned
          >he makes himself happy
          >and he is able to sustain that happiness;
          >he makes his parents happy
          >and he is able to sustain their happiness;
          >he makes his wife and children happy
          >and he is able to sustain their happiness;
          >he makes his employees happy
          >and he is able to sustain their happiness.
          >
          >This is the first case.
          >
          >In the case of the second case,
          >with riches so gotten,
          >he makes his friends and companions happy
          >and he is able to sustain their happiness.
          >
          >This is the second case.
          >
          >In the case of the third case,
          >with riches so gotten,
          >he is able to set up protections
          >against loss through disaster,
          >fire,
          >water,
          >kings,
          >robbers,
          >enemies and
          >greedy heirs.
          >
          >This is the third case.
          >
          >In the case of the fourth case,
          >with riches so gotten,
          >he makes the five-dimensional offering ceremony,
          >offering gifts and nourishment,
          >remembrance and gratitude to:
          >kinfolk,
          >friends,
          >ancestors,
          >kings,
          >and the gods.
          >
          >This is the fourth case.
          >
          >Again, in addition,
          >with riches so gotten,
          >he makes gifts to shaman and godly men;
          >men of modest demeanor
          >who have let go of lazy ways,
          >bearing all with patience,
          >men who have stilled,
          >calmed,
          >controlled the self,
          >perfected the self,
          >abandoned the self;
          >gifts aimed at the high,
          >the godly,
          >resulting in happiness,
          >leading to heavenly realms.
          >
          >This is the fifth case.
          >
          >These are the five reasons for getting rich.
          >
          >Furthermore, householder,
          >should the wealth of such a one,
          >having gathered wealth
          >with these five reasons in mind,
          >come to destruction,
          >he may rightly think:
          >'At least this wealth now lost
          >was gathered for righteous reasons.'
          >
          >And he will find
          >he is without shame or regret.
          >
          >But if his wealth should grow
          >he may think:
          >'This wealth is growing,
          >and I am one who grows his wealth
          >for righteous reasons.'
          >
          >And in this way
          >he will have protected himself
          >from worry from either cause.

          Exactly the text that was lurking somewhere in the deeper recesses of my
          failing memory!

          Thank you very much!

          Best regards,

          Kåre A. Lie
          http://www.lienet.no/

          THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
          an excellent vocabulary.
        • Ong Yong Peng
          Dear Kare, Mike and friends, thanks for the interesting discussion. For those who are interested in comparative study with Mahayana texts, the protection of
          Message 4 of 27 , Apr 2, 2005
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            Dear Kare, Mike and friends,

            thanks for the interesting discussion. For those who are interested in
            comparative study with Mahayana texts, the protection of wealth against
            loss through the seven factors is also mentioned in several Mahayana
            texts.

            I wonder if the Buddha said further about protecting loss by means of
            kings, who were impossible for a commoner to oppose in those days.

            I would like to say that where personal wealth management is concerned,
            anything along this line is fine. However, I believe the Buddha didn't
            intend it to be dogmatic, and the advice of professional consultants in
            all areas of wealth management should be considered. This is especially
            true since each person's circumstances is different from others, which
            make professional advice even more valuable.


            metta,
            Yong Peng.


            --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kåre A. Lie wrote:

            > At 13:41 02.04.2005 +0000, olbeggaols wrote:
            >
            > In the case of the third case,
            > with riches so gotten,
            > he is able to set up protections
            > against loss through disaster,
            > fire,
            > water,
            > kings,
            > robbers,
            > enemies and
            > greedy heirs.
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Hi Kåre, ... N: Ang. Book of Eights, Ch 5, Gotamid, § 4, Longknee or Diighajaanu. Also edited in Wheel no 14. I cannot quote much now: conditions of worldly
            Message 5 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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              Hi Kåre,
              op 02-04-2005 14:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:

              > If someone have
              > some other suggestions about this or other sayings about the same theme -
              > householders and economics - I'd be most thankful.
              N: Ang. Book of Eights, Ch 5, Gotamid, § 4, Longknee or Diighajaanu. Also
              edited in Wheel no 14. I cannot quote much now: conditions of worldly
              progress, accomplishment of watchfulness, good friendship, etc.
              What I like in all these suttas; the advice is very practical for laymen and
              at the end there are spiritual counsels. The accomplishment of wisdom:
              insight that realizes impermanence. Satipatthana is implied, and to be
              developed in daily life. Also when earning one's living, playing music in
              our case! There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them.
              Nina.
            • olbeggaols
              Kåre, ATI is down at the moment, but if you get to the 8s there are two translations of the Longknee sutta there:
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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                Kåre,

                ATI is down at the moment, but if you get to the 8s there are two
                translations of the Longknee sutta there:

                http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-054a.html

                Nina,

                With all the best wishes for you personally, this has got to be
                either a thoughtless statement on your part or an outright pernicious
                belief that you should let go of, that is, your statement that:

                "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"

                What is your understanding of the goal of what the Buddha taught is
                if it isn't to escape nama and rupa?

                It just comes down to what I would call a discouraging word.
              • Ong Yong Peng
                Dear Kare, Nina, Mike and friends, Mike: I can understanding your style of writing emails. I think it is totally a matter of personal taste the way an
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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                  Dear Kare, Nina, Mike and friends,

                  Mike: I can understanding your style of writing emails. I think it is
                  totally a matter of personal taste the way an individual compose his
                  messages. However, I do sometimes find them too blunt. It is still ok
                  to talk rough between guys, provided no one gets personal. However,
                  please be mindful that there are ladies on the list too. Therefore, I
                  would suggest that we go a bit light-hearted in our exchanges.

                  Otherwise, I think you have raised a valid point. But, then, Nina may
                  have other opinions.

                  metta,
                  Yong Peng.


                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, olbeggaols wrote:

                  > "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"

                  What is your understanding of the goal of what the Buddha taught is
                  if it isn't to escape nama and rupa?
                • Gunnar Gällmo
                  ... For one thing, he must have been quite aware that not everyone is able to live on only 25% of his or her gross income. I never could, and I don t feel too
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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                    --- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> wrote:
                    > I would like to say that where personal wealth
                    > management is concerned,
                    > anything along this line is fine. However, I believe
                    > the Buddha didn't
                    > intend it to be dogmatic

                    For one thing, he must have been quite aware that not
                    everyone is able to live on only 25% of his or her
                    gross income. I never could, and I don't feel too
                    sorry for being unable to follow the letter of his
                    advice.

                    Gunnar


                    gunnargallmo@...
                  • olbeggaols
                    Yong Peng, I understand your concern here is to keep the discussion polite. Reviewing the post, I imagine you would have preferred I had left out the: With
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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                      Yong Peng,

                      I understand your concern here is to keep the discussion polite.

                      Reviewing the post, I imagine you would have preferred I had left out
                      the:

                      "With all the best wishes for you personally, this has got to be
                      either a thoughtless statement on your part or an outright pernicious
                      belief that you should let go of, that is, your statement that:

                      "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"

                      and the closing:

                      "It just comes down to what I would call a discouraging word."

                      That would have left:

                      "What is your understanding of the goal of what the Buddha taught is
                      if it isn't to escape nama and rupa?"

                      And that would most likely have been a better way to go, all things
                      considered, so if Nina will accept a retraction I would re-state the
                      post:

                      Nina:

                      You say: "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"

                      In reference to that I ask: "What is your understanding of the goal
                      of what the Buddha taught is if it isn't to escape nama and rupa?"

                      Now if I am not mistaken, Nina is no idiot, and she sees exactly that
                      my intent is in this attempt to enter into debate with her:

                      1. It is for the sake of pointing out by way of analysis of the
                      response how it was a statement made without thought or was a
                      pernicious belief held onto by her.

                      2. It is for the sake of pointing out to those who are just learning
                      how such a view is not Dhamma, (it's not even realistic in ordinary
                      terms) and that it is one of our duties in our concern for the
                      preservation of Dhamma to point out what is and what is not Dhamma.

                      It is a matter of judgment, in my judgment, as to whether it is less
                      blunt to be blunt and get the cards out on the table and by that
                      point out the purposes of raising the issue or to be what appears to
                      me to be excessively circumspect and risk loss of the point
                      altogether while having gained nothing in terms of what Nina (and
                      anyone else thinking about the matter) understands to be the intent.

                      I actually fall on the side of being more circumspect and have been
                      working on that issue in my posts; it goes against my upbringing and
                      perception of what does and what does not constitute the best way for
                      an individual to hear that he is dead wrong about something, but it
                      is definately a better way when considering my own peace of mind and
                      the hassles of dealing with misunderstanding my intentions.

                      The other issue here is: since such statements as the one made by
                      Nina here constitute a 'blunt' attack on many people's belief systems
                      (within the Dhamma) (sort of my parallel to 'there are women
                      present') shouldn't policy be just as thorough in coming down on such
                      as on coming down on poorly constructed reaction to such? Equal
                      treatment to all according to the same standard is one of the four
                      basics for developing friendships.
                    • Nina van Gorkom
                      Hi Mike Olds, Sorry to cause misunderstandings. I meant something different from what you read. Nama and rupa are everywhere and they can be objects of
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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                        Hi Mike Olds,
                        Sorry to cause misunderstandings. I meant something different from what you
                        read.
                        Nama and rupa are everywhere and they can be objects of understanding. We
                        cannot avoid them, because they are right here. But, the development of
                        right understanding of them will eventually lead to the end of samsara, and
                        then there will not be the arising of nama and rupa anymore.
                        I just saw your other post, but no need to worry. We are just studying
                        Dhamma.
                        Nina.
                        op 03-04-2005 13:05 schreef olbeggaols op MikeOlds@...:

                        > With all the best wishes for you personally, this has got to be
                        > either a thoughtless statement on your part or an outright pernicious
                        > belief that you should let go of, that is, your statement that:
                        >
                        > "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"
                        >
                        > What is your understanding of the goal of what the Buddha taught is
                        > if it isn't to escape nama and rupa?
                        >
                        > It just comes down to what I would call a discouraging word.
                      • Stephen Hodge
                        ... I think this is all rather over the top and still not a little offensive or hurtful. To me, it is quite clear from the context that Nina was not saying
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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                          Mike wrote:

                          >> "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"
                          > 1. It is for the sake of pointing out by way of analysis of the
                          > response how it was a statement made without thought or was a
                          > pernicious belief held onto by her.

                          I think this is all rather over the top and still not a little offensive or
                          hurtful. To me, it is quite clear from the context that Nina was not saying
                          that one cannot escape from nama-rupa in the Buddhist sense, but they are an
                          ever-present problem that we are burdened with, so as far as I can see she
                          was merely saying that the demands of life are sometimes rather presssing.

                          You should always remember that not everybody on this list is a native
                          speaker of English -- though she has an excellent command of the language,
                          English is not Nina's mother tongue. Allowances should be made for the
                          occasional linguistic infelicity which would not have been written by
                          masters of our language such as yourself.

                          > what does and what does not constitute the best way for
                          > an individual to hear that he is dead wrong about something
                          You, of course, are impeccably qualified to judge such things ?

                          Best wishes,
                          Stephen Hodge
                        • "Kåre A. Lie"
                          ... I agree. The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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                            At 14:23 03.04.2005 +0200, you wrote:

                            >--- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> wrote:
                            > > I would like to say that where personal wealth
                            > > management is concerned,
                            > > anything along this line is fine. However, I believe
                            > > the Buddha didn't
                            > > intend it to be dogmatic
                            >
                            >For one thing, he must have been quite aware that not
                            >everyone is able to live on only 25% of his or her
                            >gross income. I never could, and I don't feel too
                            >sorry for being unable to follow the letter of his
                            >advice.

                            I agree.

                            The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a
                            book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
                            useful to have some stories to illustrate that the Buddha also showed a
                            concern for the daily life and economics of ordinary lay people.

                            I do not recommend that anyone should take these stories dogmatically. What
                            they show, however, is that from a Buddhist point of view lay persons can
                            pursue their carreers and earn money with a good conscience, provided they
                            earn their money in a rightful way, spend their earnings wisely and also
                            use them to help others.

                            I found that there are several small dialogues in the AN that illustrate
                            this, and I think I'll use the one in DN 69 (IV, VII, 62). But I am
                            thankful for the suggestions I got. They pointed me in the right direction.

                            Yours,

                            Kåre A. Lie
                            http://www.lienet.no/

                            THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                            an excellent vocabulary.
                          • "Kåre A. Lie"
                            ... Thank you. I ve got the PTS books in English and the CSCD with the Pali texts, so that is no problem at all. Best regards, Kåre A. Lie
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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                              At 11:05 03.04.2005 +0000, you wrote:


                              >Kåre,
                              >
                              >ATI is down at the moment, but if you get to the 8s there are two
                              >translations of the Longknee sutta there:
                              >
                              >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-054a.html

                              Thank you. I've got the PTS books in English and the CSCD with the Pali
                              texts, so that is no problem at all.

                              Best regards,

                              Kåre A. Lie
                              http://www.lienet.no/

                              THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                              an excellent vocabulary.
                            • "Kåre A. Lie"
                              ... Thank you, Nina. This is also a very interesting dialogue. It is a bit long for my purpose, but I think I will find use for parts of it. Best regards,
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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                                At 11:35 03.04.2005 +0200, you wrote:

                                >Hi Kåre,
                                >op 02-04-2005 14:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:
                                >
                                > > If someone have
                                > > some other suggestions about this or other sayings about the same theme -
                                > > householders and economics - I'd be most thankful.
                                >N: Ang. Book of Eights, Ch 5, Gotamid, § 4, Longknee or Diighajaanu. Also
                                >edited in Wheel no 14. I cannot quote much now: conditions of worldly
                                >progress, accomplishment of watchfulness, good friendship, etc.
                                >What I like in all these suttas; the advice is very practical for laymen and
                                >at the end there are spiritual counsels. The accomplishment of wisdom:
                                >insight that realizes impermanence. Satipatthana is implied, and to be
                                >developed in daily life. Also when earning one's living, playing music in
                                >our case! There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them.
                                >Nina.

                                Thank you, Nina. This is also a very interesting dialogue. It is a bit long
                                for my purpose, but I think I will find use for parts of it.

                                Best regards,

                                Kåre A. Lie
                                http://www.lienet.no/

                                THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                                an excellent vocabulary.
                              • Ven. Yuttadhammo
                                ... Dear Friends, I think another thing to take into consideration here is our extravagent lifestyles in the West that drive up prices of housing, food, etc.
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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                                  >--- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> wrote:
                                  > > I would like to say that where personal wealth
                                  > > management is concerned,
                                  > > anything along this line is fine. However, I believe
                                  > > the Buddha didn't
                                  > > intend it to be dogmatic
                                  >
                                  >For one thing, he must have been quite aware that not
                                  >everyone is able to live on only 25% of his or her
                                  >gross income. I never could, and I don't feel too
                                  >sorry for being unable to follow the letter of his
                                  >advice.

                                  Dear Friends,

                                  I think another thing to take into consideration here is our
                                  extravagent lifestyles in the West that drive up prices of housing,
                                  food, etc. If someone really wanted to keep to the Buddha's words
                                  here, they might have to move to a poor country, live in a hut, and
                                  be quite clever, like the mouse merchant (Jat 4).

                                  I think it must have been a gutsy thing to say even in the time of the
                                  Buddha, especially given the commentary's explaination implying that
                                  we are not actually meant to live on 25% of our income, we are meant
                                  to live on whatever is left of that 25% after giving alms! (cp
                                  Vighaasa Jat. 393) It might of course be wise to suggest that the two
                                  parts to be used for business include income taxes and other taxes,
                                  which are quite high in developed countries...

                                  Not to outright suggest that one try to follow this to the letter, but
                                  to suggest that sometimes we are quick to think the Buddha's teaching
                                  outdated and impractical when it might in fact just be out of our
                                  reach at the moment... the story goes that Vessantara was born with
                                  his hand outstretched, and the first words he uttered were "mother, I
                                  wish to make some gift, is there anything?" (Jat 547) :) Visayha (Jat
                                  340) mowed grass to make money when Sakka caused his treasure to
                                  disappear, and he gave both halves of the money got to beggars when
                                  asked, six days in a row, before fainting on the seventh day.

                                  maa bhikkhave pu~n~naana.m bhaayittha. sukhasseta.m, bhikkhave,
                                  adhivacana.m - yadida.m pu~n~naani. (Iti 1.3.2 Mettasutta)

                                  amhaaka.m kusalaa kammaa nibbaanapaccayaa hontu,

                                  Yuttadhammo
                                • Ven. Yuttadhammo
                                  ... From: Stephen Hodge To: Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:10 AM Subject: [Pali] Buddhist
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
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                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge@...>
                                    To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:10 AM
                                    Subject: [Pali] Buddhist economics


                                    >
                                    > Mike wrote:
                                    >
                                    >>> "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"
                                    >> 1. It is for the sake of pointing out by way of analysis of the
                                    >> response how it was a statement made without thought or was a
                                    >> pernicious belief held onto by her.
                                    >
                                    > I think this is all rather over the top and still not a little
                                    > offensive or
                                    > hurtful. To me, it is quite clear from the context that Nina was
                                    > not saying
                                    > that one cannot escape from nama-rupa in the Buddhist sense, but
                                    > they are an
                                    > ever-present problem that we are burdened with, so as far as I can
                                    > see she
                                    > was merely saying that the demands of life are sometimes rather
                                    > presssing.

                                    If I may respectfully interject... I would like to affirm Ms. Van
                                    Gorkom's statement... we cannot escape rupa and nama, as the
                                    components of "we" are that very rupa and nama. This is why the Lord
                                    Buddha taught "sabbe dhammaa anattaa". If nibbaana were self, then
                                    surely we could escape rupa and nama. But since nibbaana is not self,
                                    there is therefore no escape for "we". "We" has to run around chasing
                                    after "we" like a dog its tail, and no escape is possible for a dog
                                    from its tail...

                                    Through letting go of "we", along with "they", "us", "them", "ours",
                                    "theirs" (aha.m kara, mama.m kara) there is no more arising of rupa
                                    and nama, and so there is nothing more to escape from and nothing that
                                    should escape! But this requires freedom from both ditthi and manas,
                                    and is not something achieved without striving...

                                    ime me dve maasakaa honti (these are my two cents).

                                    Shalom,

                                    Yuttadhammo

                                    > You should always remember that not everybody on this list is a
                                    > native
                                    > speaker of English -- though she has an excellent command of the
                                    > language,
                                    > English is not Nina's mother tongue. Allowances should be made for
                                    > the
                                    > occasional linguistic infelicity which would not have been written
                                    > by
                                    > masters of our language such as yourself.
                                    >
                                    >> what does and what does not constitute the best way for
                                    >> an individual to hear that he is dead wrong about something
                                    > You, of course, are impeccably qualified to judge such things ?
                                    >
                                    > Best wishes,
                                    > Stephen Hodge
                                  • Nina van Gorkom
                                    Dear Kåre, ... N: That is interesting. I find that the Brahmaviharas help much for our social life. Police officers in Thailand were so interested in this
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
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                                      Dear Kåre,
                                      op 03-04-2005 22:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:
                                      >
                                      > The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a
                                      > book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
                                      > useful to have some stories to illustrate that the Buddha also showed a
                                      > concern for the daily life and economics of ordinary lay people.
                                      N: That is interesting. I find that the Brahmaviharas help much for our
                                      social life. Police officers in Thailand were so interested in this subject,
                                      and Acharn Sujin gave them a talk about it. This inspired me to write some
                                      dialogues on the Brahma Viharas I had with my husband. This may be too much
                                      for the scope of your book. In case you want to see it, it is on:
                                      http://www.zolag.co.uk/
                                      Nina.
                                    • Ong Yong Peng
                                      Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Kare, Nina, Mike, Rahula, Gunnar, Stephen and friends, Mike: In the Sangaha Sutta, the Buddha gives generosity, kinds words, beneficial
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
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                                        Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Kare, Nina, Mike, Rahula, Gunnar, Stephen and
                                        friends,

                                        Mike: In the Sangaha Sutta, the Buddha gives generosity, kinds words,
                                        beneficial help and consistency as the four grounds for the bonds of
                                        fellowship. I understand that you have no ill intentions, but I find
                                        that there is no need to "corner" Nina for a statement she did not
                                        make clear.

                                        Otherwise, I do respect what you have done, for pointing the
                                        incompleteness of Nina's statement, which may result in some having
                                        an incorrect understanding of the Dhamma.

                                        As the size of a discussion group grows and the discussion topics get
                                        more involved, there is a tendency people shun from pointing out
                                        others' mistakes, or correcting their own mistakes. So, I like to
                                        take this opportunity to invite members who have never voiced out to
                                        come forward, raise questions, and give your opinions, but please do
                                        so wisely. This is important, otherwise it defeats the purpose of a
                                        discussion group. It even defeats the good name of the Dhamma!

                                        Svakkhato Bhagavata Dhammo
                                        Sanditthiko Akaliko
                                        Ehi-passiko Opanayiko
                                        Paccattam veditabbo viññuhi ti.


                                        metta,
                                        Yong Peng.

                                        Sangaha Sutta:
                                        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-032.html


                                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, olbeggaols wrote:

                                        I understand your concern here is to keep the discussion polite.
                                      • Ong Yong Peng
                                        Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Nina, Kare, Mike, Stephen, Gunnar, Rahula and friends, as I browsed through the ATI site earlier, I come across yet another thread of
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
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                                          Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Nina, Kare, Mike, Stephen, Gunnar, Rahula and
                                          friends,

                                          as I browsed through the ATI site earlier, I come across yet another
                                          thread of advice by the Buddha, the Kula Sutta:
                                          http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-255.html


                                          metta,
                                          Yong Peng.
                                        • "Kåre A. Lie"
                                          ... Dear Nina, I very much agree. The Brahmaviharas are very important for our daily life. I have already given them a prominent place in my book manuscript.
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
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                                            At 10:50 04.04.2005 +0200, you wrote:

                                            >Dear Kåre,
                                            >op 03-04-2005 22:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:
                                            > >
                                            > > The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a
                                            > > book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
                                            > > useful to have some stories to illustrate that the Buddha also showed a
                                            > > concern for the daily life and economics of ordinary lay people.
                                            >N: That is interesting. I find that the Brahmaviharas help much for our
                                            >social life. Police officers in Thailand were so interested in this subject,
                                            >and Acharn Sujin gave them a talk about it. This inspired me to write some
                                            >dialogues on the Brahma Viharas I had with my husband. This may be too much
                                            >for the scope of your book. In case you want to see it, it is on:
                                            >http://www.zolag.co.uk/
                                            >Nina.

                                            Dear Nina,

                                            I very much agree. The Brahmaviharas are very important for our daily life.
                                            I have already given them a prominent place in my book manuscript.

                                            It was also interesting to read the article you gave a link to. But my book
                                            is aiming at people without any special knowledge or background of
                                            Buddhism, so I try to keep things a little more simple and less technical.

                                            Best regards,

                                            Kåre A. Lie
                                            http://www.lienet.no/

                                            THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                                            an excellent vocabulary.
                                          • "Kåre A. Lie"
                                            ... Thank you. There are many gems of worldly wisdom in the Tipitaka. Best regards, Kåre A. Lie http://www.lienet.no/ THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
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                                              At 09:12 04.04.2005 +0000, you wrote:


                                              >Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Nina, Kare, Mike, Stephen, Gunnar, Rahula and
                                              >friends,
                                              >
                                              >as I browsed through the ATI site earlier, I come across yet another
                                              >thread of advice by the Buddha, the Kula Sutta:
                                              >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-255.html
                                              >
                                              >
                                              >metta,
                                              >Yong Peng.

                                              Thank you. There are many gems of worldly wisdom in the Tipitaka.

                                              Best regards,

                                              Kåre A. Lie
                                              http://www.lienet.no/

                                              THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                                              an excellent vocabulary.
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