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Buddhist economics

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  • "Kåre A. Lie"
    Dear friends, I hope some of you can help me find a story in the Tipitaka. Once the Buddha said something about how a wise householder should invest part of
    Message 1 of 27 , Mar 30, 2005
      Dear friends,

      I hope some of you can help me find a story in the Tipitaka.

      Once the Buddha said something about how a wise householder should invest
      part of his money in his business, save a part of it, and spend a part of
      it on himself and his family and on dana. This is how I remember it, but I
      can not remember where in the Tipitaka I can find it.

      Can someone please help?

      Best regards,

      Kåre A. Lie
      http://www.lienet.no/
    • Ven. Yuttadhammo
      Dear Kare, ... It s in the Sigalovada (Si ngaala) Sutta, DN 31: Eva.m bhoge samaahatvaa, alamatto kule gihii; catudhaa vibhaje bhoge, sa ve mittaani ganthati.
      Message 2 of 27 , Mar 30, 2005
        Dear Kare,

        >I hope some of you can help me find a story in the Tipitaka.

        It's in the Sigalovada (Si"ngaala) Sutta, DN 31:

        Eva.m bhoge samaahatvaa, alamatto kule gihii;
        catudhaa vibhaje bhoge, sa ve mittaani ganthati.

        With wealth acquired this way,
        a layman fit for household life,
        in portions four divides his wealth:
        thus will he friendship win.

        Ekena bhoge bhu~njeyya, dviihi kamma.m payojaye;
        catuttha~nca nidhaapeyya, aapadaasu bhavissatii'ti.

        One portion for his wants he uses,
        two portions on his business spends,
        the fourth for times of need he keeps.

        The commentary asks the obvious question:

        "Imesu pana catuusu ko.t.thaasesu katarako.t.thaasa.m gahetvaa
        kusala.m kaatabbanti?"

        and answers that it should come from the part called "bhu~njeyya".

        Pali Source: CSCD Paathikavaggapaa.li
        English Source:
        http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel014.html

        parama.m dhana.m bhavantu te,

        Yuttadhammo

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: ""Kåre A. Lie"" <alberlie@...>
        To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, March 31, 2005 3:05 AM
        Subject: [Pali] Buddhist economics



        Dear friends,


        Once the Buddha said something about how a wise householder should
        invest
        part of his money in his business, save a part of it, and spend a part
        of
        it on himself and his family and on dana. This is how I remember it,
        but I
        can not remember where in the Tipitaka I can find it.

        Can someone please help?

        Best regards,

        Kåre A. Lie
        http://www.lienet.no/




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      • Ngawang Dorje
        Hi, Try Sigalovada Sutta (Digha Nikaya 31) Best wishes, Rahula ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Make Yahoo! your home page
        Message 3 of 27 , Mar 30, 2005
          Hi,

          Try Sigalovada Sutta (Digha Nikaya 31)

          Best wishes,
          Rahula

          --- "K?e A. Lie" <alberlie@...> wrote:

          > Dear friends,
          >
          > I hope some of you can help me find a story in the
          > Tipitaka.
          >
          > Once the Buddha said something about how a wise
          > householder should invest
          > part of his money in his business, save a part of
          > it, and spend a part of
          > it on himself and his family and on dana. This is
          > how I remember it, but I
          > can not remember where in the Tipitaka I can find
          > it.
          >
          > Can someone please help?
          >
          > Best regards,
          >
          > K?e A. Lie
          > http://www.lienet.no/
          >
          >
          >




          __________________________________
          Do you Yahoo!?
          Make Yahoo! your home page
          http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs
        • "Kåre A. Lie"
          ... Arrrrgh! I should have known! My first thought indeed was Sigalovada, but somehow I managed to convince myself that I was wrong, that it was to be found
          Message 4 of 27 , Mar 31, 2005
            At 08:03 31.03.2005 +0700, you wrote:

            >Dear Kare,
            >
            > >I hope some of you can help me find a story in the Tipitaka.
            >
            >It's in the Sigalovada (Si"ngaala) Sutta, DN 31:
            >
            >Eva.m bhoge samaahatvaa, alamatto kule gihii;
            >catudhaa vibhaje bhoge, sa ve mittaani ganthati.
            >
            >With wealth acquired this way,
            >a layman fit for household life,
            >in portions four divides his wealth:
            >thus will he friendship win.
            >
            >Ekena bhoge bhu~njeyya, dviihi kamma.m payojaye;
            >catuttha~nca nidhaapeyya, aapadaasu bhavissatii'ti.
            >
            >One portion for his wants he uses,
            >two portions on his business spends,
            >the fourth for times of need he keeps.
            >
            >The commentary asks the obvious question:
            >
            >"Imesu pana catuusu ko.t.thaasesu katarako.t.thaasa.m gahetvaa
            >kusala.m kaatabbanti?"
            >
            >and answers that it should come from the part called "bhu~njeyya".
            >
            >Pali Source: CSCD Paathikavaggapaa.li
            >English Source:
            >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel014.html
            >
            >parama.m dhana.m bhavantu te,
            >
            >Yuttadhammo

            Arrrrgh! I should have known! My first thought indeed was Sigalovada, but
            somehow I managed to convince myself that I was wrong, that it was to be
            found somewhere else, so I didn't even bother to check the Sigalovada! Just
            goes to show how stupid one can be ....

            So thanks a lot for the reference!

            Best regards,

            Kåre A. Lie
            http://www.lienet.no/
          • "Kåre A. Lie"
            ... Thank you very much! Best regards, Kåre A. Lie http://www.lienet.no/
            Message 5 of 27 , Mar 31, 2005
              At 18:54 30.03.2005 -0800, you wrote:


              >Hi,
              >
              >Try Sigalovada Sutta (Digha Nikaya 31)
              >
              >Best wishes,
              >Rahula

              Thank you very much!

              Best regards,

              Kåre A. Lie
              http://www.lienet.no/
            • BLC
              D.III.188 Kåre A. Lie wrote:Dear friends, I hope some of you can help me find a story in the Tipitaka. Once the Buddha said something
              Message 6 of 27 , Apr 2, 2005
                D.III.188

                "K�re A. Lie" <alberlie@...> wrote:Dear friends,

                I hope some of you can help me find a story in the Tipitaka.

                Once the Buddha said something about how a wise householder should invest
                part of his money in his business, save a part of it, and spend a part of
                it on himself and his family and on dana. This is how I remember it, but I
                can not remember where in the Tipitaka I can find it.

                Can someone please help?

                Best regards,

                K�re A. Lie
                http://www.lienet.no/
              • "Kåre A. Lie"
                ... I appreciate the help I already have got with this question. I faintly remember that the Buddha also said something else about housholders and economics,
                Message 7 of 27 , Apr 2, 2005
                  At 03:00 02.04.2005 -0800, you wrote:


                  >D.III.188
                  >
                  >"Kåre A. Lie" <alberlie@...> wrote:Dear friends,
                  >
                  >I hope some of you can help me find a story in the Tipitaka.
                  >
                  >Once the Buddha said something about how a wise householder should invest
                  >part of his money in his business, save a part of it, and spend a part of
                  >it on himself and his family and on dana. This is how I remember it, but I
                  >can not remember where in the Tipitaka I can find it.
                  >
                  >Can someone please help?

                  I appreciate the help I already have got with this question. I faintly
                  remember that the Buddha also said something else about housholders and
                  economics, that householders could enjoy their money with a good conscience
                  if it was earned by rightful means, or something similar. If someone have
                  some other suggestions about this or other sayings about the same theme -
                  householders and economics - I'd be most thankful.

                  Best regards,

                  Kåre A. Lie
                  http://www.lienet.no/

                  THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                  an excellent vocabulary.
                • olbeggaols
                  Kåre The Book of Fives Sutta 41 On Make n Mula I HEAR TELL: Once upon a time the Lucky Man, Savatthi-town, Jeta Woods, Anathapindika Park, came a revisit n.
                  Message 8 of 27 , Apr 2, 2005
                    Kåre



                    The Book of Fives
                    Sutta 41
                    On Make'n Mula


                    I HEAR TELL:

                    Once upon a time the Lucky Man, Savatthi-town, Jeta Woods,
                    Anathapindika Park, came a revisit'n.
                    There, Anathapindika, the housefather, came to pay a call, and,
                    after paying respect with closed palms,
                    he sat on a low seat to one side
                    at a respectful distance,
                    and Bhaggava said this to him:

                    "Housefather!
                    There are these five reasons for getting rich.
                    What five?"

                    "In the case of the first case
                    a student of the Aristocrats gets rich
                    in a just, lawful manner;
                    by the strength of his arm,
                    the sweat of his brow;
                    hard work,
                    energy,
                    enterprise and
                    intelligence.

                    With his wealth so earned
                    he makes himself happy
                    and he is able to sustain that happiness;
                    he makes his parents happy
                    and he is able to sustain their happiness;
                    he makes his wife and children happy
                    and he is able to sustain their happiness;
                    he makes his employees happy
                    and he is able to sustain their happiness.

                    This is the first case.

                    In the case of the second case,
                    with riches so gotten,
                    he makes his friends and companions happy
                    and he is able to sustain their happiness.

                    This is the second case.

                    In the case of the third case,
                    with riches so gotten,
                    he is able to set up protections
                    against loss through disaster,
                    fire,
                    water,
                    kings,
                    robbers,
                    enemies and
                    greedy heirs.

                    This is the third case.

                    In the case of the fourth case,
                    with riches so gotten,
                    he makes the five-dimensional offering ceremony,
                    offering gifts and nourishment,
                    remembrance and gratitude to:
                    kinfolk,
                    friends,
                    ancestors,
                    kings,
                    and the gods.

                    This is the fourth case.

                    Again, in addition,
                    with riches so gotten,
                    he makes gifts to shaman and godly men;
                    men of modest demeanor
                    who have let go of lazy ways,
                    bearing all with patience,
                    men who have stilled,
                    calmed,
                    controlled the self,
                    perfected the self,
                    abandoned the self;
                    gifts aimed at the high,
                    the godly,
                    resulting in happiness,
                    leading to heavenly realms.

                    This is the fifth case.

                    These are the five reasons for getting rich.

                    Furthermore, householder,
                    should the wealth of such a one,
                    having gathered wealth
                    with these five reasons in mind,
                    come to destruction,
                    he may rightly think:
                    'At least this wealth now lost
                    was gathered for righteous reasons.'

                    And he will find
                    he is without shame or regret.

                    But if his wealth should grow
                    he may think:
                    'This wealth is growing,
                    and I am one who grows his wealth
                    for righteous reasons.'

                    And in this way
                    he will have protected himself
                    from worry from either cause.
                  • "Kåre A. Lie"
                    ... Exactly the text that was lurking somewhere in the deeper recesses of my failing memory! Thank you very much! Best regards, Kåre A. Lie
                    Message 9 of 27 , Apr 2, 2005
                      At 13:41 02.04.2005 +0000, olbeggaols wrote:


                      >Kåre
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >The Book of Fives
                      >Sutta 41
                      >On Make'n Mula
                      >
                      >
                      >I HEAR TELL:
                      >
                      >Once upon a time the Lucky Man, Savatthi-town, Jeta Woods,
                      >Anathapindika Park, came a revisit'n.
                      >There, Anathapindika, the housefather, came to pay a call, and,
                      >after paying respect with closed palms,
                      >he sat on a low seat to one side
                      >at a respectful distance,
                      >and Bhaggava said this to him:
                      >
                      >"Housefather!
                      >There are these five reasons for getting rich.
                      >What five?"
                      >
                      >"In the case of the first case
                      >a student of the Aristocrats gets rich
                      >in a just, lawful manner;
                      >by the strength of his arm,
                      >the sweat of his brow;
                      >hard work,
                      >energy,
                      >enterprise and
                      >intelligence.
                      >
                      >With his wealth so earned
                      >he makes himself happy
                      >and he is able to sustain that happiness;
                      >he makes his parents happy
                      >and he is able to sustain their happiness;
                      >he makes his wife and children happy
                      >and he is able to sustain their happiness;
                      >he makes his employees happy
                      >and he is able to sustain their happiness.
                      >
                      >This is the first case.
                      >
                      >In the case of the second case,
                      >with riches so gotten,
                      >he makes his friends and companions happy
                      >and he is able to sustain their happiness.
                      >
                      >This is the second case.
                      >
                      >In the case of the third case,
                      >with riches so gotten,
                      >he is able to set up protections
                      >against loss through disaster,
                      >fire,
                      >water,
                      >kings,
                      >robbers,
                      >enemies and
                      >greedy heirs.
                      >
                      >This is the third case.
                      >
                      >In the case of the fourth case,
                      >with riches so gotten,
                      >he makes the five-dimensional offering ceremony,
                      >offering gifts and nourishment,
                      >remembrance and gratitude to:
                      >kinfolk,
                      >friends,
                      >ancestors,
                      >kings,
                      >and the gods.
                      >
                      >This is the fourth case.
                      >
                      >Again, in addition,
                      >with riches so gotten,
                      >he makes gifts to shaman and godly men;
                      >men of modest demeanor
                      >who have let go of lazy ways,
                      >bearing all with patience,
                      >men who have stilled,
                      >calmed,
                      >controlled the self,
                      >perfected the self,
                      >abandoned the self;
                      >gifts aimed at the high,
                      >the godly,
                      >resulting in happiness,
                      >leading to heavenly realms.
                      >
                      >This is the fifth case.
                      >
                      >These are the five reasons for getting rich.
                      >
                      >Furthermore, householder,
                      >should the wealth of such a one,
                      >having gathered wealth
                      >with these five reasons in mind,
                      >come to destruction,
                      >he may rightly think:
                      >'At least this wealth now lost
                      >was gathered for righteous reasons.'
                      >
                      >And he will find
                      >he is without shame or regret.
                      >
                      >But if his wealth should grow
                      >he may think:
                      >'This wealth is growing,
                      >and I am one who grows his wealth
                      >for righteous reasons.'
                      >
                      >And in this way
                      >he will have protected himself
                      >from worry from either cause.

                      Exactly the text that was lurking somewhere in the deeper recesses of my
                      failing memory!

                      Thank you very much!

                      Best regards,

                      Kåre A. Lie
                      http://www.lienet.no/

                      THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                      an excellent vocabulary.
                    • Ong Yong Peng
                      Dear Kare, Mike and friends, thanks for the interesting discussion. For those who are interested in comparative study with Mahayana texts, the protection of
                      Message 10 of 27 , Apr 2, 2005
                        Dear Kare, Mike and friends,

                        thanks for the interesting discussion. For those who are interested in
                        comparative study with Mahayana texts, the protection of wealth against
                        loss through the seven factors is also mentioned in several Mahayana
                        texts.

                        I wonder if the Buddha said further about protecting loss by means of
                        kings, who were impossible for a commoner to oppose in those days.

                        I would like to say that where personal wealth management is concerned,
                        anything along this line is fine. However, I believe the Buddha didn't
                        intend it to be dogmatic, and the advice of professional consultants in
                        all areas of wealth management should be considered. This is especially
                        true since each person's circumstances is different from others, which
                        make professional advice even more valuable.


                        metta,
                        Yong Peng.


                        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Kåre A. Lie wrote:

                        > At 13:41 02.04.2005 +0000, olbeggaols wrote:
                        >
                        > In the case of the third case,
                        > with riches so gotten,
                        > he is able to set up protections
                        > against loss through disaster,
                        > fire,
                        > water,
                        > kings,
                        > robbers,
                        > enemies and
                        > greedy heirs.
                      • Nina van Gorkom
                        Hi Kåre, ... N: Ang. Book of Eights, Ch 5, Gotamid, § 4, Longknee or Diighajaanu. Also edited in Wheel no 14. I cannot quote much now: conditions of worldly
                        Message 11 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                          Hi Kåre,
                          op 02-04-2005 14:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:

                          > If someone have
                          > some other suggestions about this or other sayings about the same theme -
                          > householders and economics - I'd be most thankful.
                          N: Ang. Book of Eights, Ch 5, Gotamid, § 4, Longknee or Diighajaanu. Also
                          edited in Wheel no 14. I cannot quote much now: conditions of worldly
                          progress, accomplishment of watchfulness, good friendship, etc.
                          What I like in all these suttas; the advice is very practical for laymen and
                          at the end there are spiritual counsels. The accomplishment of wisdom:
                          insight that realizes impermanence. Satipatthana is implied, and to be
                          developed in daily life. Also when earning one's living, playing music in
                          our case! There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them.
                          Nina.
                        • olbeggaols
                          Kåre, ATI is down at the moment, but if you get to the 8s there are two translations of the Longknee sutta there:
                          Message 12 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                            Kåre,

                            ATI is down at the moment, but if you get to the 8s there are two
                            translations of the Longknee sutta there:

                            http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-054a.html

                            Nina,

                            With all the best wishes for you personally, this has got to be
                            either a thoughtless statement on your part or an outright pernicious
                            belief that you should let go of, that is, your statement that:

                            "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"

                            What is your understanding of the goal of what the Buddha taught is
                            if it isn't to escape nama and rupa?

                            It just comes down to what I would call a discouraging word.
                          • Ong Yong Peng
                            Dear Kare, Nina, Mike and friends, Mike: I can understanding your style of writing emails. I think it is totally a matter of personal taste the way an
                            Message 13 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                              Dear Kare, Nina, Mike and friends,

                              Mike: I can understanding your style of writing emails. I think it is
                              totally a matter of personal taste the way an individual compose his
                              messages. However, I do sometimes find them too blunt. It is still ok
                              to talk rough between guys, provided no one gets personal. However,
                              please be mindful that there are ladies on the list too. Therefore, I
                              would suggest that we go a bit light-hearted in our exchanges.

                              Otherwise, I think you have raised a valid point. But, then, Nina may
                              have other opinions.

                              metta,
                              Yong Peng.


                              --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, olbeggaols wrote:

                              > "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"

                              What is your understanding of the goal of what the Buddha taught is
                              if it isn't to escape nama and rupa?
                            • Gunnar Gällmo
                              ... For one thing, he must have been quite aware that not everyone is able to live on only 25% of his or her gross income. I never could, and I don t feel too
                              Message 14 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                                --- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> wrote:
                                > I would like to say that where personal wealth
                                > management is concerned,
                                > anything along this line is fine. However, I believe
                                > the Buddha didn't
                                > intend it to be dogmatic

                                For one thing, he must have been quite aware that not
                                everyone is able to live on only 25% of his or her
                                gross income. I never could, and I don't feel too
                                sorry for being unable to follow the letter of his
                                advice.

                                Gunnar


                                gunnargallmo@...
                              • olbeggaols
                                Yong Peng, I understand your concern here is to keep the discussion polite. Reviewing the post, I imagine you would have preferred I had left out the: With
                                Message 15 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                                  Yong Peng,

                                  I understand your concern here is to keep the discussion polite.

                                  Reviewing the post, I imagine you would have preferred I had left out
                                  the:

                                  "With all the best wishes for you personally, this has got to be
                                  either a thoughtless statement on your part or an outright pernicious
                                  belief that you should let go of, that is, your statement that:

                                  "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"

                                  and the closing:

                                  "It just comes down to what I would call a discouraging word."

                                  That would have left:

                                  "What is your understanding of the goal of what the Buddha taught is
                                  if it isn't to escape nama and rupa?"

                                  And that would most likely have been a better way to go, all things
                                  considered, so if Nina will accept a retraction I would re-state the
                                  post:

                                  Nina:

                                  You say: "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"

                                  In reference to that I ask: "What is your understanding of the goal
                                  of what the Buddha taught is if it isn't to escape nama and rupa?"

                                  Now if I am not mistaken, Nina is no idiot, and she sees exactly that
                                  my intent is in this attempt to enter into debate with her:

                                  1. It is for the sake of pointing out by way of analysis of the
                                  response how it was a statement made without thought or was a
                                  pernicious belief held onto by her.

                                  2. It is for the sake of pointing out to those who are just learning
                                  how such a view is not Dhamma, (it's not even realistic in ordinary
                                  terms) and that it is one of our duties in our concern for the
                                  preservation of Dhamma to point out what is and what is not Dhamma.

                                  It is a matter of judgment, in my judgment, as to whether it is less
                                  blunt to be blunt and get the cards out on the table and by that
                                  point out the purposes of raising the issue or to be what appears to
                                  me to be excessively circumspect and risk loss of the point
                                  altogether while having gained nothing in terms of what Nina (and
                                  anyone else thinking about the matter) understands to be the intent.

                                  I actually fall on the side of being more circumspect and have been
                                  working on that issue in my posts; it goes against my upbringing and
                                  perception of what does and what does not constitute the best way for
                                  an individual to hear that he is dead wrong about something, but it
                                  is definately a better way when considering my own peace of mind and
                                  the hassles of dealing with misunderstanding my intentions.

                                  The other issue here is: since such statements as the one made by
                                  Nina here constitute a 'blunt' attack on many people's belief systems
                                  (within the Dhamma) (sort of my parallel to 'there are women
                                  present') shouldn't policy be just as thorough in coming down on such
                                  as on coming down on poorly constructed reaction to such? Equal
                                  treatment to all according to the same standard is one of the four
                                  basics for developing friendships.
                                • Nina van Gorkom
                                  Hi Mike Olds, Sorry to cause misunderstandings. I meant something different from what you read. Nama and rupa are everywhere and they can be objects of
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                                    Hi Mike Olds,
                                    Sorry to cause misunderstandings. I meant something different from what you
                                    read.
                                    Nama and rupa are everywhere and they can be objects of understanding. We
                                    cannot avoid them, because they are right here. But, the development of
                                    right understanding of them will eventually lead to the end of samsara, and
                                    then there will not be the arising of nama and rupa anymore.
                                    I just saw your other post, but no need to worry. We are just studying
                                    Dhamma.
                                    Nina.
                                    op 03-04-2005 13:05 schreef olbeggaols op MikeOlds@...:

                                    > With all the best wishes for you personally, this has got to be
                                    > either a thoughtless statement on your part or an outright pernicious
                                    > belief that you should let go of, that is, your statement that:
                                    >
                                    > "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"
                                    >
                                    > What is your understanding of the goal of what the Buddha taught is
                                    > if it isn't to escape nama and rupa?
                                    >
                                    > It just comes down to what I would call a discouraging word.
                                  • Stephen Hodge
                                    ... I think this is all rather over the top and still not a little offensive or hurtful. To me, it is quite clear from the context that Nina was not saying
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                                      Mike wrote:

                                      >> "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"
                                      > 1. It is for the sake of pointing out by way of analysis of the
                                      > response how it was a statement made without thought or was a
                                      > pernicious belief held onto by her.

                                      I think this is all rather over the top and still not a little offensive or
                                      hurtful. To me, it is quite clear from the context that Nina was not saying
                                      that one cannot escape from nama-rupa in the Buddhist sense, but they are an
                                      ever-present problem that we are burdened with, so as far as I can see she
                                      was merely saying that the demands of life are sometimes rather presssing.

                                      You should always remember that not everybody on this list is a native
                                      speaker of English -- though she has an excellent command of the language,
                                      English is not Nina's mother tongue. Allowances should be made for the
                                      occasional linguistic infelicity which would not have been written by
                                      masters of our language such as yourself.

                                      > what does and what does not constitute the best way for
                                      > an individual to hear that he is dead wrong about something
                                      You, of course, are impeccably qualified to judge such things ?

                                      Best wishes,
                                      Stephen Hodge
                                    • "Kåre A. Lie"
                                      ... I agree. The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                                        At 14:23 03.04.2005 +0200, you wrote:

                                        >--- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> wrote:
                                        > > I would like to say that where personal wealth
                                        > > management is concerned,
                                        > > anything along this line is fine. However, I believe
                                        > > the Buddha didn't
                                        > > intend it to be dogmatic
                                        >
                                        >For one thing, he must have been quite aware that not
                                        >everyone is able to live on only 25% of his or her
                                        >gross income. I never could, and I don't feel too
                                        >sorry for being unable to follow the letter of his
                                        >advice.

                                        I agree.

                                        The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a
                                        book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
                                        useful to have some stories to illustrate that the Buddha also showed a
                                        concern for the daily life and economics of ordinary lay people.

                                        I do not recommend that anyone should take these stories dogmatically. What
                                        they show, however, is that from a Buddhist point of view lay persons can
                                        pursue their carreers and earn money with a good conscience, provided they
                                        earn their money in a rightful way, spend their earnings wisely and also
                                        use them to help others.

                                        I found that there are several small dialogues in the AN that illustrate
                                        this, and I think I'll use the one in DN 69 (IV, VII, 62). But I am
                                        thankful for the suggestions I got. They pointed me in the right direction.

                                        Yours,

                                        Kåre A. Lie
                                        http://www.lienet.no/

                                        THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                                        an excellent vocabulary.
                                      • "Kåre A. Lie"
                                        ... Thank you. I ve got the PTS books in English and the CSCD with the Pali texts, so that is no problem at all. Best regards, Kåre A. Lie
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                                          At 11:05 03.04.2005 +0000, you wrote:


                                          >Kåre,
                                          >
                                          >ATI is down at the moment, but if you get to the 8s there are two
                                          >translations of the Longknee sutta there:
                                          >
                                          >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-054a.html

                                          Thank you. I've got the PTS books in English and the CSCD with the Pali
                                          texts, so that is no problem at all.

                                          Best regards,

                                          Kåre A. Lie
                                          http://www.lienet.no/

                                          THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                                          an excellent vocabulary.
                                        • "Kåre A. Lie"
                                          ... Thank you, Nina. This is also a very interesting dialogue. It is a bit long for my purpose, but I think I will find use for parts of it. Best regards,
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                                            At 11:35 03.04.2005 +0200, you wrote:

                                            >Hi Kåre,
                                            >op 02-04-2005 14:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:
                                            >
                                            > > If someone have
                                            > > some other suggestions about this or other sayings about the same theme -
                                            > > householders and economics - I'd be most thankful.
                                            >N: Ang. Book of Eights, Ch 5, Gotamid, § 4, Longknee or Diighajaanu. Also
                                            >edited in Wheel no 14. I cannot quote much now: conditions of worldly
                                            >progress, accomplishment of watchfulness, good friendship, etc.
                                            >What I like in all these suttas; the advice is very practical for laymen and
                                            >at the end there are spiritual counsels. The accomplishment of wisdom:
                                            >insight that realizes impermanence. Satipatthana is implied, and to be
                                            >developed in daily life. Also when earning one's living, playing music in
                                            >our case! There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them.
                                            >Nina.

                                            Thank you, Nina. This is also a very interesting dialogue. It is a bit long
                                            for my purpose, but I think I will find use for parts of it.

                                            Best regards,

                                            Kåre A. Lie
                                            http://www.lienet.no/

                                            THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                                            an excellent vocabulary.
                                          • Ven. Yuttadhammo
                                            ... Dear Friends, I think another thing to take into consideration here is our extravagent lifestyles in the West that drive up prices of housing, food, etc.
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                                              >--- Ong Yong Peng <yongpeng.ong@...> wrote:
                                              > > I would like to say that where personal wealth
                                              > > management is concerned,
                                              > > anything along this line is fine. However, I believe
                                              > > the Buddha didn't
                                              > > intend it to be dogmatic
                                              >
                                              >For one thing, he must have been quite aware that not
                                              >everyone is able to live on only 25% of his or her
                                              >gross income. I never could, and I don't feel too
                                              >sorry for being unable to follow the letter of his
                                              >advice.

                                              Dear Friends,

                                              I think another thing to take into consideration here is our
                                              extravagent lifestyles in the West that drive up prices of housing,
                                              food, etc. If someone really wanted to keep to the Buddha's words
                                              here, they might have to move to a poor country, live in a hut, and
                                              be quite clever, like the mouse merchant (Jat 4).

                                              I think it must have been a gutsy thing to say even in the time of the
                                              Buddha, especially given the commentary's explaination implying that
                                              we are not actually meant to live on 25% of our income, we are meant
                                              to live on whatever is left of that 25% after giving alms! (cp
                                              Vighaasa Jat. 393) It might of course be wise to suggest that the two
                                              parts to be used for business include income taxes and other taxes,
                                              which are quite high in developed countries...

                                              Not to outright suggest that one try to follow this to the letter, but
                                              to suggest that sometimes we are quick to think the Buddha's teaching
                                              outdated and impractical when it might in fact just be out of our
                                              reach at the moment... the story goes that Vessantara was born with
                                              his hand outstretched, and the first words he uttered were "mother, I
                                              wish to make some gift, is there anything?" (Jat 547) :) Visayha (Jat
                                              340) mowed grass to make money when Sakka caused his treasure to
                                              disappear, and he gave both halves of the money got to beggars when
                                              asked, six days in a row, before fainting on the seventh day.

                                              maa bhikkhave pu~n~naana.m bhaayittha. sukhasseta.m, bhikkhave,
                                              adhivacana.m - yadida.m pu~n~naani. (Iti 1.3.2 Mettasutta)

                                              amhaaka.m kusalaa kammaa nibbaanapaccayaa hontu,

                                              Yuttadhammo
                                            • Ven. Yuttadhammo
                                              ... From: Stephen Hodge To: Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:10 AM Subject: [Pali] Buddhist
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Apr 3, 2005
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                From: "Stephen Hodge" <s.hodge@...>
                                                To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
                                                Sent: Monday, April 04, 2005 1:10 AM
                                                Subject: [Pali] Buddhist economics


                                                >
                                                > Mike wrote:
                                                >
                                                >>> "There are nama and rupa and we cannot escape them"
                                                >> 1. It is for the sake of pointing out by way of analysis of the
                                                >> response how it was a statement made without thought or was a
                                                >> pernicious belief held onto by her.
                                                >
                                                > I think this is all rather over the top and still not a little
                                                > offensive or
                                                > hurtful. To me, it is quite clear from the context that Nina was
                                                > not saying
                                                > that one cannot escape from nama-rupa in the Buddhist sense, but
                                                > they are an
                                                > ever-present problem that we are burdened with, so as far as I can
                                                > see she
                                                > was merely saying that the demands of life are sometimes rather
                                                > presssing.

                                                If I may respectfully interject... I would like to affirm Ms. Van
                                                Gorkom's statement... we cannot escape rupa and nama, as the
                                                components of "we" are that very rupa and nama. This is why the Lord
                                                Buddha taught "sabbe dhammaa anattaa". If nibbaana were self, then
                                                surely we could escape rupa and nama. But since nibbaana is not self,
                                                there is therefore no escape for "we". "We" has to run around chasing
                                                after "we" like a dog its tail, and no escape is possible for a dog
                                                from its tail...

                                                Through letting go of "we", along with "they", "us", "them", "ours",
                                                "theirs" (aha.m kara, mama.m kara) there is no more arising of rupa
                                                and nama, and so there is nothing more to escape from and nothing that
                                                should escape! But this requires freedom from both ditthi and manas,
                                                and is not something achieved without striving...

                                                ime me dve maasakaa honti (these are my two cents).

                                                Shalom,

                                                Yuttadhammo

                                                > You should always remember that not everybody on this list is a
                                                > native
                                                > speaker of English -- though she has an excellent command of the
                                                > language,
                                                > English is not Nina's mother tongue. Allowances should be made for
                                                > the
                                                > occasional linguistic infelicity which would not have been written
                                                > by
                                                > masters of our language such as yourself.
                                                >
                                                >> what does and what does not constitute the best way for
                                                >> an individual to hear that he is dead wrong about something
                                                > You, of course, are impeccably qualified to judge such things ?
                                                >
                                                > Best wishes,
                                                > Stephen Hodge
                                              • Nina van Gorkom
                                                Dear Kåre, ... N: That is interesting. I find that the Brahmaviharas help much for our social life. Police officers in Thailand were so interested in this
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
                                                  Dear Kåre,
                                                  op 03-04-2005 22:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:
                                                  >
                                                  > The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a
                                                  > book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
                                                  > useful to have some stories to illustrate that the Buddha also showed a
                                                  > concern for the daily life and economics of ordinary lay people.
                                                  N: That is interesting. I find that the Brahmaviharas help much for our
                                                  social life. Police officers in Thailand were so interested in this subject,
                                                  and Acharn Sujin gave them a talk about it. This inspired me to write some
                                                  dialogues on the Brahma Viharas I had with my husband. This may be too much
                                                  for the scope of your book. In case you want to see it, it is on:
                                                  http://www.zolag.co.uk/
                                                  Nina.
                                                • Ong Yong Peng
                                                  Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Kare, Nina, Mike, Rahula, Gunnar, Stephen and friends, Mike: In the Sangaha Sutta, the Buddha gives generosity, kinds words, beneficial
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
                                                    Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Kare, Nina, Mike, Rahula, Gunnar, Stephen and
                                                    friends,

                                                    Mike: In the Sangaha Sutta, the Buddha gives generosity, kinds words,
                                                    beneficial help and consistency as the four grounds for the bonds of
                                                    fellowship. I understand that you have no ill intentions, but I find
                                                    that there is no need to "corner" Nina for a statement she did not
                                                    make clear.

                                                    Otherwise, I do respect what you have done, for pointing the
                                                    incompleteness of Nina's statement, which may result in some having
                                                    an incorrect understanding of the Dhamma.

                                                    As the size of a discussion group grows and the discussion topics get
                                                    more involved, there is a tendency people shun from pointing out
                                                    others' mistakes, or correcting their own mistakes. So, I like to
                                                    take this opportunity to invite members who have never voiced out to
                                                    come forward, raise questions, and give your opinions, but please do
                                                    so wisely. This is important, otherwise it defeats the purpose of a
                                                    discussion group. It even defeats the good name of the Dhamma!

                                                    Svakkhato Bhagavata Dhammo
                                                    Sanditthiko Akaliko
                                                    Ehi-passiko Opanayiko
                                                    Paccattam veditabbo viññuhi ti.


                                                    metta,
                                                    Yong Peng.

                                                    Sangaha Sutta:
                                                    http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-032.html


                                                    --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, olbeggaols wrote:

                                                    I understand your concern here is to keep the discussion polite.
                                                  • Ong Yong Peng
                                                    Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Nina, Kare, Mike, Stephen, Gunnar, Rahula and friends, as I browsed through the ATI site earlier, I come across yet another thread of
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
                                                      Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Nina, Kare, Mike, Stephen, Gunnar, Rahula and
                                                      friends,

                                                      as I browsed through the ATI site earlier, I come across yet another
                                                      thread of advice by the Buddha, the Kula Sutta:
                                                      http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-255.html


                                                      metta,
                                                      Yong Peng.
                                                    • "Kåre A. Lie"
                                                      ... Dear Nina, I very much agree. The Brahmaviharas are very important for our daily life. I have already given them a prominent place in my book manuscript.
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
                                                        At 10:50 04.04.2005 +0200, you wrote:

                                                        >Dear Kåre,
                                                        >op 03-04-2005 22:19 schreef Kåre A. Lie op alberlie@...:
                                                        > >
                                                        > > The reason why I am interested in these matters, is that I am writing a
                                                        > > book (in Norwegian) on Buddhism from a humanist perspective, and I find it
                                                        > > useful to have some stories to illustrate that the Buddha also showed a
                                                        > > concern for the daily life and economics of ordinary lay people.
                                                        >N: That is interesting. I find that the Brahmaviharas help much for our
                                                        >social life. Police officers in Thailand were so interested in this subject,
                                                        >and Acharn Sujin gave them a talk about it. This inspired me to write some
                                                        >dialogues on the Brahma Viharas I had with my husband. This may be too much
                                                        >for the scope of your book. In case you want to see it, it is on:
                                                        >http://www.zolag.co.uk/
                                                        >Nina.

                                                        Dear Nina,

                                                        I very much agree. The Brahmaviharas are very important for our daily life.
                                                        I have already given them a prominent place in my book manuscript.

                                                        It was also interesting to read the article you gave a link to. But my book
                                                        is aiming at people without any special knowledge or background of
                                                        Buddhism, so I try to keep things a little more simple and less technical.

                                                        Best regards,

                                                        Kåre A. Lie
                                                        http://www.lienet.no/

                                                        THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                                                        an excellent vocabulary.
                                                      • "Kåre A. Lie"
                                                        ... Thank you. There are many gems of worldly wisdom in the Tipitaka. Best regards, Kåre A. Lie http://www.lienet.no/ THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Apr 4, 2005
                                                          At 09:12 04.04.2005 +0000, you wrote:


                                                          >Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo, Nina, Kare, Mike, Stephen, Gunnar, Rahula and
                                                          >friends,
                                                          >
                                                          >as I browsed through the ATI site earlier, I come across yet another
                                                          >thread of advice by the Buddha, the Kula Sutta:
                                                          >http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an04-255.html
                                                          >
                                                          >
                                                          >metta,
                                                          >Yong Peng.

                                                          Thank you. There are many gems of worldly wisdom in the Tipitaka.

                                                          Best regards,

                                                          Kåre A. Lie
                                                          http://www.lienet.no/

                                                          THESAURUS (n.): An ancient reptile with
                                                          an excellent vocabulary.
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