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Re: [Pali] kilesa vs. upakkilesa

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  • ������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)
    JK Does anyone know the difference in meanings between JK kilesa and uppakkilesa? The dictionary definitions JK suggest defilement or impurity for both.
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 31, 2002
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      JK> Does anyone know the difference in meanings between
      JK> kilesa and uppakkilesa? The dictionary definitions
      JK> suggest defilement or impurity for both. What
      JK> subtlety of difference does the upa- prefix bring, if
      JK> any?

      I guess it is something like en-dirt-ment.

      The key difference is that 'kilesa' is the term used in the Suttanta
      Pitaka, and 'upakkilesa' is used in the Commentaries.

      I think that the term 'upakkilesa' is more natural and to the point,
      since it is not just impurity, but en-spoil-ment, slime on something
      (in most cases on citta).

      Metta,
      Dimitry
    • ������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)
      JK Does anyone know the difference in meanings between JK kilesa and uppakkilesa? The dictionary definitions JK suggest defilement or impurity for both.
      Message 2 of 5 , Feb 1, 2002
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        JK> Does anyone know the difference in meanings between
        JK> kilesa and uppakkilesa? The dictionary definitions
        JK> suggest defilement or impurity for both. What
        JK> subtlety of difference does the upa- prefix bring, if
        JK> any?

        On the second glance, I think that besides the tinge of 'on, upon',
        there's also a shade of 'coming close from down under'. That is,
        'upakkilesaa' are considered to be somewhat lower, or secondary,
        adjoining, to those things on which they appear.

        Simplification 'kilesaa' loses that shade.

        Metta,
        Dimitry
      • pakdi yanawaro
        kilesa is the main classification, it is clasified as lobha,dosa and moha as you already know, , but upakilesa is a subdivision into more details, 16 items,
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 2, 2002
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          kilesa is the main classification, it is clasified as
          lobha,dosa and moha as you already know, , but
          upakilesa is a subdivision into more details, 16
          items, i.e.
          1.Abhijjaavismalobha : greed and covetousness;
          covetousness and unrighteous greed
          2.Byaapaada:malevolence; illwill
          3.Kodha: anger
          4. Upanaaha; grudge;spite
          5. Makkha: detraction;depreciation; enigration
          6.Palaasa; domineering; rivalry ; envious rivalry
          7. Issaa: envy; jealousy
          8. Macchariya : stinginess; meanness
          9.Maayaa : deceit
          10. Saatheyya : hypocrisy
          11. Thambha : obstinacy; rigidity
          12. Saarambha : presumption; competing contention;
          contentiousness; contentious rivalry; vying; strife
          13. Maana: conceit
          14.Atimaana : excessive conceit
          15. Mada : vanity
          16. Pamaada : heedlessness ; negligence; indolence
          Ref. M.1.36

          By the way there is also another classification or
          subdivision, called Mala : stains 9 items i.e.
          1.Kodha : anger
          2. Makkha : detraction; depreciation
          3.Issaa : envy; jealousy
          4. Macchariya : stinginess; meanness
          5. Maayaa : deceit
          6. Saatheyya : hypocrisy
          7. Musaavaada : false speech
          8. Paapicchaa :evil desire
          9. Micchaaditthi : false view
          Ref. Vbh.389

          Another classification :
          Kilesa : defilements , 10 items i.e.
          1. Lobha : greed
          2. Dosa : hatred
          3. Moha : delusion
          4. Maana : conceit
          5. Ditthi : wrong view
          6. Vicikicchaa : doubt; uncertainty
          7. Thina : sloth
          8.Uddhacca : restlessness
          9. Ahirika : shamelessness
          10. Anottappa : lack of moral dread
          Ref : Vbh 391

          Metta ,
          Prapakdi, Bangkok, Thailand



          --- "������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)"
          <sangha@...> wrote:
          > JK> Does anyone know the difference in meanings
          > between
          > JK> kilesa and uppakkilesa? The dictionary
          > definitions
          > JK> suggest defilement or impurity for both. What
          > JK> subtlety of difference does the upa- prefix
          > bring, if
          > JK> any?
          >
          > On the second glance, I think that besides the tinge
          > of 'on, upon',
          > there's also a shade of 'coming close from down
          > under'. That is,
          > 'upakkilesaa' are considered to be somewhat lower,
          > or secondary,
          > adjoining, to those things on which they appear.
          >
          > Simplification 'kilesaa' loses that shade.
          >
          > Metta,
          > Dimitry
          >
          >
          >
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        • ������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)
          Pra Pakdi, Thank you for reply - I felt as if I am talking to myself. py kilesa is the main classification, it is clasified as py lobha,dosa and moha as you
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 2, 2002
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            Pra Pakdi,

            Thank you for reply - I felt as if I am talking to myself.

            py> kilesa is the main classification, it is clasified as
            py> lobha,dosa and moha as you already know,

            Please tell the appropriate reference.
            Let's distinguish from the very start, how and if this word is used in
            Suttanta Pitaka and in the Commentaries.
            I have not found a single occurence of the word 'kilesa' in Digha,
            Anguttara and Samyutta Nikayas, and only two occurences in Majjhima
            Nikaya, at 3.275.

            py> , but
            py> upakilesa is a subdivision into more details, 16
            py> items, i.e.

            Thank you for the reference to excellent Vatthupama Sutta
            http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn7.html

            There are similar lists of seventeen items in each last discourse of
            Books 3 to 11 of the Anguttara Nikaya, which carry the title
            Ragapeyyala, the Repetitive Text on Greed (etc.), with 'dosa' and
            'moha' included. So this is not a subdivision.

            There are also lists of four upakkilesaa at A.2.54, and five at
            A.3.16.

            Probably the distinction between 'upakkilesa' and 'kilesa' can be a
            criterion of the age of the text. In the earliest texts the word
            'kilesa' is not used.

            py> Another classification :
            py> Kilesa : defilements , 10 items i.e.

            In my opinion this list repeats the lists of 'upakkilesaa'.

            Metta,
            Dimitry, Kiev, Ukraine
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