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kilesa vs. upakkilesa

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  • John Kelly
    Does anyone know the difference in meanings between kilesa and uppakkilesa? The dictionary definitions suggest defilement or impurity for both. What subtlety
    Message 1 of 5 , Jan 31, 2002
      Does anyone know the difference in meanings between
      kilesa and uppakkilesa? The dictionary definitions
      suggest defilement or impurity for both. What
      subtlety of difference does the upa- prefix bring, if
      any?

      Thank you.
      John

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    • ������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)
      JK Does anyone know the difference in meanings between JK kilesa and uppakkilesa? The dictionary definitions JK suggest defilement or impurity for both.
      Message 2 of 5 , Jan 31, 2002
        JK> Does anyone know the difference in meanings between
        JK> kilesa and uppakkilesa? The dictionary definitions
        JK> suggest defilement or impurity for both. What
        JK> subtlety of difference does the upa- prefix bring, if
        JK> any?

        I guess it is something like en-dirt-ment.

        The key difference is that 'kilesa' is the term used in the Suttanta
        Pitaka, and 'upakkilesa' is used in the Commentaries.

        I think that the term 'upakkilesa' is more natural and to the point,
        since it is not just impurity, but en-spoil-ment, slime on something
        (in most cases on citta).

        Metta,
        Dimitry
      • ������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)
        JK Does anyone know the difference in meanings between JK kilesa and uppakkilesa? The dictionary definitions JK suggest defilement or impurity for both.
        Message 3 of 5 , Feb 1, 2002
          JK> Does anyone know the difference in meanings between
          JK> kilesa and uppakkilesa? The dictionary definitions
          JK> suggest defilement or impurity for both. What
          JK> subtlety of difference does the upa- prefix bring, if
          JK> any?

          On the second glance, I think that besides the tinge of 'on, upon',
          there's also a shade of 'coming close from down under'. That is,
          'upakkilesaa' are considered to be somewhat lower, or secondary,
          adjoining, to those things on which they appear.

          Simplification 'kilesaa' loses that shade.

          Metta,
          Dimitry
        • pakdi yanawaro
          kilesa is the main classification, it is clasified as lobha,dosa and moha as you already know, , but upakilesa is a subdivision into more details, 16 items,
          Message 4 of 5 , Feb 2, 2002
            kilesa is the main classification, it is clasified as
            lobha,dosa and moha as you already know, , but
            upakilesa is a subdivision into more details, 16
            items, i.e.
            1.Abhijjaavismalobha : greed and covetousness;
            covetousness and unrighteous greed
            2.Byaapaada:malevolence; illwill
            3.Kodha: anger
            4. Upanaaha; grudge;spite
            5. Makkha: detraction;depreciation; enigration
            6.Palaasa; domineering; rivalry ; envious rivalry
            7. Issaa: envy; jealousy
            8. Macchariya : stinginess; meanness
            9.Maayaa : deceit
            10. Saatheyya : hypocrisy
            11. Thambha : obstinacy; rigidity
            12. Saarambha : presumption; competing contention;
            contentiousness; contentious rivalry; vying; strife
            13. Maana: conceit
            14.Atimaana : excessive conceit
            15. Mada : vanity
            16. Pamaada : heedlessness ; negligence; indolence
            Ref. M.1.36

            By the way there is also another classification or
            subdivision, called Mala : stains 9 items i.e.
            1.Kodha : anger
            2. Makkha : detraction; depreciation
            3.Issaa : envy; jealousy
            4. Macchariya : stinginess; meanness
            5. Maayaa : deceit
            6. Saatheyya : hypocrisy
            7. Musaavaada : false speech
            8. Paapicchaa :evil desire
            9. Micchaaditthi : false view
            Ref. Vbh.389

            Another classification :
            Kilesa : defilements , 10 items i.e.
            1. Lobha : greed
            2. Dosa : hatred
            3. Moha : delusion
            4. Maana : conceit
            5. Ditthi : wrong view
            6. Vicikicchaa : doubt; uncertainty
            7. Thina : sloth
            8.Uddhacca : restlessness
            9. Ahirika : shamelessness
            10. Anottappa : lack of moral dread
            Ref : Vbh 391

            Metta ,
            Prapakdi, Bangkok, Thailand



            --- "������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)"
            <sangha@...> wrote:
            > JK> Does anyone know the difference in meanings
            > between
            > JK> kilesa and uppakkilesa? The dictionary
            > definitions
            > JK> suggest defilement or impurity for both. What
            > JK> subtlety of difference does the upa- prefix
            > bring, if
            > JK> any?
            >
            > On the second glance, I think that besides the tinge
            > of 'on, upon',
            > there's also a shade of 'coming close from down
            > under'. That is,
            > 'upakkilesaa' are considered to be somewhat lower,
            > or secondary,
            > adjoining, to those things on which they appear.
            >
            > Simplification 'kilesaa' loses that shade.
            >
            > Metta,
            > Dimitry
            >
            >
            >
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          • ������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)
            Pra Pakdi, Thank you for reply - I felt as if I am talking to myself. py kilesa is the main classification, it is clasified as py lobha,dosa and moha as you
            Message 5 of 5 , Feb 2, 2002
              Pra Pakdi,

              Thank you for reply - I felt as if I am talking to myself.

              py> kilesa is the main classification, it is clasified as
              py> lobha,dosa and moha as you already know,

              Please tell the appropriate reference.
              Let's distinguish from the very start, how and if this word is used in
              Suttanta Pitaka and in the Commentaries.
              I have not found a single occurence of the word 'kilesa' in Digha,
              Anguttara and Samyutta Nikayas, and only two occurences in Majjhima
              Nikaya, at 3.275.

              py> , but
              py> upakilesa is a subdivision into more details, 16
              py> items, i.e.

              Thank you for the reference to excellent Vatthupama Sutta
              http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn7.html

              There are similar lists of seventeen items in each last discourse of
              Books 3 to 11 of the Anguttara Nikaya, which carry the title
              Ragapeyyala, the Repetitive Text on Greed (etc.), with 'dosa' and
              'moha' included. So this is not a subdivision.

              There are also lists of four upakkilesaa at A.2.54, and five at
              A.3.16.

              Probably the distinction between 'upakkilesa' and 'kilesa' can be a
              criterion of the age of the text. In the earliest texts the word
              'kilesa' is not used.

              py> Another classification :
              py> Kilesa : defilements , 10 items i.e.

              In my opinion this list repeats the lists of 'upakkilesaa'.

              Metta,
              Dimitry, Kiev, Ukraine
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