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Re: [Pali] Gair Lessons 1 & 2

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  • John Kelly
    Hi Dimitry, Thank you for catching that typo in the references. I will fix it. I look forward to having someone with your Pali expertise look through the
    Message 1 of 7 , Jan 29, 2002
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      Hi Dimitry,
      Thank you for catching that typo in the references. I
      will fix it. I look forward to having someone with
      your Pali expertise look through the solutions too and
      send your feedback. That's how we all can learn.

      What I forgot to mention on my initial posting was the
      enormous credit I owe to you for providing a place
      where I could get all the exercises in Pali, without
      having to re-type them all in! I used the file of
      your translation of Gair into Russian, provided at
      your web-site, and selected out the parts I needed.
      So thank you!

      Metta,
      John

      --- "������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)"
      <sangha@...> wrote:
      > Hi John,
      >
      > JK> I have recently been working through the
      > JK> Gair/Karunatillake book "A New Course in Reading
      > JK> Pali", and have completed the exercises in
      > lessons 1
      > JK> and 2. I have posted my solutions in our files
      > area
      > JK> at:
      > JK> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/files/Gair/
      >
      > A good work indeed!
      >
      > So far I just checked the references and found that
      > in the section
      > 2 of the second lesson, there should be
      > Pa.thamanidaanasutta.m instead
      > of Pahamanidaanasutta.m .
      >
      > And for those who listen (savakaa ;) there is a
      > sound file of the very
      > first text in this book at:
      > http://i.kiev.ua/~koleso/dharma/lib/chant.wav
      >
      > Metta,
      > Dimitry
      >
      >
      >
      > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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    • ������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)
      Hi John, JK Thank you for catching that typo in the references. I JK will fix it. I look forward to having someone with JK your Pali expertise look
      Message 2 of 7 , Jan 29, 2002
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        Hi John,

        JK> Thank you for catching that typo in the references. I
        JK> will fix it. I look forward to having someone with
        JK> your Pali expertise look through the solutions too and
        JK> send your feedback. That's how we all can learn.

        Well, some more compliments and I will really imagine that I'm an
        expert. Unfortunately or not, this imagination is just a puff of air
        in the solid world where we have to make continuous efforts.

        So back to the G&K textbook: having studied it, I would strongly
        advise to check words in the PED instead of the glossary when meaning
        is not obvious.

        1.1.2.
        For example, I would agree with F.L. Woodward in translating 'mahato
        atthaaya' and 'mahato anatthaaya' as 'great profit' and 'great loss',
        or even 'great well-being' and 'great misery'.

        1.1.3.
        I would render 'dhammaa' as 'mental qualities' in both usages (term of
        Thanissaro Bhikkhu). Why 'thoughts'? 'States' are more understandable,
        but I think 'qualities' are closer to intended sense.

        1.1.4.
        'pahaanaya' is rather 'for abandoning' than 'for diminution'.

        1.2.1.
        'dhamma' as 'mental quality' fits here better than just 'thing'.
        I think 'negligence' would be more exact than 'indolence'.
        'viriaarambho' can also be rendered as 'persistent effort(s)'.
        'anuyogo' is rather 'practice of', 'practicing', than 'development'.

        1.2.2.
        'rupa' is here a 'sight', 'visual image'.
        'ti.t.thati' is rather 'remains', 'stands' (though 'persists' is also
        close).
        'samanupassaami' is literally '(I) see'.

        2.1.1.
        Difficult is to attain human state,
        Difficult is to live as a mortal,
        Rare is listening to the true Dhamma,
        Rare is the arising of Buddhas.

        2.1.2.
        'sakkacca.m' - I would choose 'properly', 'duly'.
        'paccantima' - 'bordering', 'on the outskirts'.
        'samannaagataa' - 'endowed'.

        2.1.3.
        'Dhammavinaya.m' - why not just 'Dhamma and Vinaya'. They are not
        exactly 'doctrine and moral code'.

        2.2.1.
        'nidaana' is rather 'cause', 'foundation'.
        'kammasamudayaaya' - to the arising of kamma.
        'kammanirodhaaya' - to the cessation of kamma.

        2.2.2.
        'aaraddhaviriyo' - 'resolutely persistent one'.

        Of course, sometimes I am too literal in translations, and don't grasp
        the intricacies of English literary style, however I think that so far
        we have to understand literal meaning of the texts. There are lots of
        psychotechnical terms which are not just poetry.

        I would also greatly appreciate a glance at our modest efforts from
        real experts.

        Using Russian translation file, please be aware that I used the
        passages directly from Chattha Sangayana CD, considering them to be
        more exact.

        Metta,
        Dimitry
      • zeb1001
        Attadiipaa viharatha,attasaranaa ana n nasaranaa Viharatha/ The conjugation atha signifies verb, 2nd person plural ? Attadiipaa/ Then the declension aa
        Message 3 of 7 , Jan 29, 2002
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          Attadiipaa viharatha,attasaranaa ana'n'nasaranaa

          Viharatha/ The conjugation "atha" signifies "verb, 2nd person plural"?

          Attadiipaa/ Then the declension "aa" signifies " plural."
          (nominative?)

          If so does this make "atta" and "Diipa" both plural?
          ----------------

          Mrs. Rhys Davids, founder of the Pali Text Society, says: "We
          are here up against the difficulty of equating Indian with European
          idiom. The former uses no possessive pronoun with the reflexive
          pronoun... 'Yourselves' is then wrong" (_What Was the Original
          Gospel in "Buddhism"_, 1938).
          Any Idea's?, seems most translations use something like "Be
          island/lamps onto yourselves"?
          --------------------
          The Pali Text Society's Dictionary states the Dipa can according to
          it context be either an island,a lamp or that which illuminates.

          Walpola Rahula in "What the Buddha taught" states -
          The Digha Nikaya ancient commentary commenting on the word dipa
          says,"Mahasamuddagatam dipam viya attam dipam patittham katva
          viharatha" "Dwell making yourselves an island,a support, even as an
          island in the great ocean"

          Samsara is often compared to an ocean,Samsarasagara, and what is
          required in the ocean for saftey/refuge is an island.

          Anyone have any other ideas on why Island or lamp is used?
          ------------------

          Mettena
        • ������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)
          z Attadiipaa viharatha,attasaranaa ana n nasaranaa z Viharatha/ The conjugation atha signifies verb, 2nd person plural ? In this case, imperative 2nd
          Message 4 of 7 , Jan 30, 2002
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            z> Attadiipaa viharatha,attasaranaa ana'n'nasaranaa
            z> Viharatha/ The conjugation "atha" signifies "verb, 2nd person plural"?

            In this case, imperative 2nd person plural.

            z> Attadiipaa/ Then the declension "aa" signifies " plural."
            z> (nominative?)

            Agreed.

            z> If so does this make "atta" and "Diipa" both plural?

            Yes.

            z> ----------------
            z> Mrs. Rhys Davids, founder of the Pali Text Society, says: "We
            z> are here up against the difficulty of equating Indian with European
            z> idiom. The former uses no possessive pronoun with the reflexive
            z> pronoun... 'Yourselves' is then wrong" (_What Was the Original
            z> Gospel in "Buddhism"_, 1938).
            z> Any Idea's?, seems most translations use something like "Be
            z> island/lamps onto yourselves"?
            z> --------------------

            The use of reflexive pronoun in Russian is quite similar to Indian, so
            hopefully I understand what she meant. Nevertheless I think that 'abide
            self-reliant (as islands for yourselves)' reflects the original meaning.
            (See Mr. Rhys Davids note in 'diipa' article of Pali-English
            Dictionary).

            z> The Pali Text Society's Dictionary states the Dipa can according to
            z> it context be either an island,a lamp or that which illuminates.

            You can see by references in PED that 'lamp' is rather late usage of
            this word, applied in Commentaries.

            z> Walpola Rahula in "What the Buddha taught" states -
            z> The Digha Nikaya ancient commentary commenting on the word dipa
            z> says,"Mahasamuddagatam dipam viya attam dipam patittham katva
            z> viharatha" "Dwell making yourselves an island,a support, even as an
            z> island in the great ocean"

            This is from Mahavagga-Atthakatha 3.204 (written in 5th century).

            z> Samsara is often compared to an ocean,Samsarasagara, and what is
            z> required in the ocean for saftey/refuge is an island.

            z> Anyone have any other ideas on why Island or lamp is used?
            z> ------------------

            In my inexperienced opinion 'attadiipa' just means 'self-reliant,
            self-supported', with no strings attached. Commentaries just give
            useful hints about the probable context. The explanation of the suttas
            themselves is keeping track of the four bases of mindfulness in and of
            themselves.

            See also a 25th verse of Dhammapada:

            Through initiative, heedfulness,
            restraint, & self-control,
            the wise would make
            an island
            no flood
            can submerge.

            Mettena cittena,
            Dimitry
          • John Kelly
            Dear Dimitry, Thank you for your thoughtful responses to my translation attempts of the exercises from Gair. I have incorporated most of your suggestions into
            Message 5 of 7 , Feb 4, 2002
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              Dear Dimitry,
              Thank you for your thoughtful responses to my
              translation attempts of the exercises from Gair.
              I have incorporated most of your suggestions into my
              revised version, which I have re-posted to the same
              place in our files folder.

              Best wishes,
              John
              --- "������� ��������� (Dimitry Ivakhnenko)"
              <sangha@...> wrote:
              > Hi John,
              >
              > JK> Thank you for catching that typo in the
              > references. I
              > JK> will fix it. I look forward to having someone
              > with
              > JK> your Pali expertise look through the solutions
              > too and
              > JK> send your feedback. That's how we all can
              > learn.
              >
              > Well, some more compliments and I will really
              > imagine that I'm an
              > expert. Unfortunately or not, this imagination is
              > just a puff of air
              > in the solid world where we have to make continuous
              > efforts.
              >
              > So back to the G&K textbook: having studied it, I
              > would strongly
              > advise to check words in the PED instead of the
              > glossary when meaning
              > is not obvious.
              >
              > 1.1.2.
              > For example, I would agree with F.L. Woodward in
              > translating 'mahato
              > atthaaya' and 'mahato anatthaaya' as 'great profit'
              > and 'great loss',
              > or even 'great well-being' and 'great misery'.
              >
              > 1.1.3.
              > I would render 'dhammaa' as 'mental qualities' in
              > both usages (term of
              > Thanissaro Bhikkhu). Why 'thoughts'? 'States' are
              > more understandable,
              > but I think 'qualities' are closer to intended
              > sense.
              >
              > 1.1.4.
              > 'pahaanaya' is rather 'for abandoning' than 'for
              > diminution'.
              >
              > 1.2.1.
              > 'dhamma' as 'mental quality' fits here better than
              > just 'thing'.
              > I think 'negligence' would be more exact than
              > 'indolence'.
              > 'viriaarambho' can also be rendered as 'persistent
              > effort(s)'.
              > 'anuyogo' is rather 'practice of', 'practicing',
              > than 'development'.
              >
              > 1.2.2.
              > 'rupa' is here a 'sight', 'visual image'.
              > 'ti.t.thati' is rather 'remains', 'stands' (though
              > 'persists' is also
              > close).
              > 'samanupassaami' is literally '(I) see'.
              >
              > 2.1.1.
              > Difficult is to attain human state,
              > Difficult is to live as a mortal,
              > Rare is listening to the true Dhamma,
              > Rare is the arising of Buddhas.
              >
              > 2.1.2.
              > 'sakkacca.m' - I would choose 'properly', 'duly'.
              > 'paccantima' - 'bordering', 'on the outskirts'.
              > 'samannaagataa' - 'endowed'.
              >
              > 2.1.3.
              > 'Dhammavinaya.m' - why not just 'Dhamma and Vinaya'.
              > They are not
              > exactly 'doctrine and moral code'.
              >
              > 2.2.1.
              > 'nidaana' is rather 'cause', 'foundation'.
              > 'kammasamudayaaya' - to the arising of kamma.
              > 'kammanirodhaaya' - to the cessation of kamma.
              >
              > 2.2.2.
              > 'aaraddhaviriyo' - 'resolutely persistent one'.
              >
              > Of course, sometimes I am too literal in
              > translations, and don't grasp
              > the intricacies of English literary style, however I
              > think that so far
              > we have to understand literal meaning of the texts.
              > There are lots of
              > psychotechnical terms which are not just poetry.
              >
              > I would also greatly appreciate a glance at our
              > modest efforts from
              > real experts.
              >
              > Using Russian translation file, please be aware that
              > I used the
              > passages directly from Chattha Sangayana CD,
              > considering them to be
              > more exact.
              >
              > Metta,
              > Dimitry
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
              >
              > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
              > - - - - -
              > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options
              > to daily digest or web only.
              > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net/pali
              > [Discussion] http://groups.yahoo.com/group/pali
              > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >


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