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Re: [Pali] AN 6.10.11

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Venerable Bhante Yuttadhammo, thank you very much. ... N: It is often translated as craving, but I also have seen thirst. Bh: 2) Again the problem with the
    Message 1 of 2 , Mar 3, 2005
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      Venerable Bhante Yuttadhammo,
      thank you very much.
      op 03-03-2005 02:19 schreef Ven. Yuttadhammo op buffer@...:

      >
      > Here's AN 6.10.11
      >
      > Comments:
      >
      > 1) ta.nhaa = thirst
      N: It is often translated as craving, but I also have seen thirst.
      Bh: 2) Again the problem with the word: "maana" (cp AN 6.8.2
      Arahattasutta'm)
      > which is
      > commonly translated as "conceit". But here it is probably more simply
      > "self-estimation",
      > "conceit" being closer to atimaana, here rendered as "over-estimation".
      N: Also self estimation is a kind of conceit, one clings to the importance
      of self.
      There are many variations of it. The Vibhanga explains under 'Small Items':
      ati-maana excessive conceit. Adhimaana: overestimating conceit (not having
      attained, one imagines oneself as having attained).
      asmi-maana: conceit of I am.
      omaana: self disrespect.
      In all such ways one is flying a banner.
      Also in the footnotes of the Arahattasutta, as you referred to.
      Personally I prefer conceit to self-estimation, but the word self-estimation
      is all right too. But the sutta refers to the arahat, and he has eradicated
      all kinds of conceit. Wrong view was already eradicated by the sotaapanna.
      Bh: I
      > have here given
      > "maana" three seperate translations: "self-estimation" to clarify what kind of
      > estimation
      > is referred to,

      "estimation" when simply referring to the attachment to self
      > (e.g. I am
      > like this, I am like that),
      N: Thus here the word estimation refers to conceit, not just clinging to
      self without conceit.
      I am like this: this can be with conceit. It takes any object. Also when
      one does not compare. Somehow one flies a banner, one finds oneself
      important.

      Bh: and "conceit" when placed in the poetic "sammaa
      > maanaabhisamayaa". This avoids describing "maana" as a kind of "maana", as
      > well as
      > repeating oneself, saying that abandoning "maana" is a way to penetrate
      > "maana".
      N: Translation is fine, I think. The sammaa belongs to the abhisamayaa, not
      to conceit.
      With respect,
      Nina.
      > --------------------------------------------
      >
      > A'nguttaranikaayo
      >
      > Chakkanipaatapaa.li
      >
      > 10. Aanisa'msavaggo
      >
      > 11. Ta.nhaasutta.m
      >
      > Tisso imaa, bhikkhave, ta.nhaa pahaatabbaa, tayo ca maanaa.
      > These three, o Bhikkhus, thirsts should be abandoned, and these three
      > self-estimations.
      >
      > Katamaa tisso ta.nhaa pahaatabbaa? Kaamata.nhaa, bhavata.nhaa, vibhavata.nhaa-
      > imaa tisso
      > ta.nhaa pahaatabbaa.
      > Which three thirsts should be abandoned? Thirst for sensuality, thirst for
      > becoming,
      > thirst for non-becoming. These three thirsts should be abandoned.
      >
      > Katame tayo maanaa pahaatabbaa? Maano, omaano, atimaano- ime tayo maanaa
      > pahaatabbaa.
      > Which three self-estimations should be abandoned? Estimation,
      > under-estimation,
      > over-estimation. These three self-estimations should be abandoned.
      >
      > Yato kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno imaa tisso ta.nhaa pahiinaa honti, ime ca tayo
      > maanaa;
      > aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave, bhikkhu acchecchi ta.nha.m,vivattayi sa.myojana.m,
      > sammaa
      > maanaabhisamayaa antamakaasi dukkhassaa"ti.
      > Indeed, oh bhikkhus, from whence these three thirsts are abandoned by a
      > bhikkhu, along
      > with these three self-estimations - o monks, one says this monk has cut off
      > thirst; has
      > broken the bond ; from the right penetration of conceit has made an end to
      > suffering.
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