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Re: [Pali] AN 6.10.9

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Venerable Bhante, ... N: I also find this difficult to read. The meaning could be that he does not cling to the world. ... Bhante: I am not sure... is it
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 2, 2005
      Venerable Bhante,
      op 02-03-2005 01:16 schreef Ven. Yuttadhammo op buffer@...:
      >> N: maya: made of, consisting of. tammayo= tad+mayo, a sandhi . Made of that.
      >> In PED under ta, there are good examples of sandhis of tad and other words.
      >> Sometimes tad becomes tab or tap and may be hard to recognize.
      >> My PTS has a footnote: sabbaloke ca atammayo: not made of that.
      >
      > It still seems funny... "I will become one who is not made of that in regards
      > to the whole world"? I think I get it...
      N: I also find this difficult to read. The meaning could be that he does not
      cling to the world.
      >>> "Cha, bhikkhave, aanisa.mse sampassamaanena alameva bhikkhunaa sabbadhammesu
      >>> anodhi.m karitvaa anattasa~n~na.m upa.t.thaapetu.m.
      >>
      >>> Six benefits are indeed fit to be procured, o monks, by a discerning monk
      >>> having made
      >>> limitless the perception of non-self in regards to all formations.
      >> N: The PTS is different. It seems that upa.t.thaapetu.m refers to
      >> anattasa~n~na.m instead of making it refer to the six benefits. By seeing
      >> six benefits: cha aanisa.mse sampassamaanena.
      >> PTS: If a monk perceives six benefits, it is enough to establish, without
      >> reserve, the idea of non-self....
      >
      Bhante: I am not sure... is it possible to read it as I have? It seems to
      make more
      > sense that
      > one would "alameva" procure six benefits from "anattasanna", rather than
      > "alameva" procure
      > "anattasanna" by seeing six benefits in it...
      N: PED: alameva katum: this is proper to be done, or: for sure. Then I think
      your reading is better. Alameva would pertain to upa.t.thaapetu.m,
      establish.
      I compared the Thai but this is difficult.
      With respect,
      Nina.
    • Ven. Yuttadhammo
      ... Thank you. I have read the Thai, and it seems to more or less agree with the PTS as you quoted it, though more confusing of course :) - something like:
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 2, 2005
        > N: PED: alameva katum: this is proper to be done, or: for sure. Then I think
        > your reading is better. Alameva would pertain to upa.t.thaapetu.m,
        > establish.
        > I compared the Thai but this is difficult.

        Thank you. I have read the Thai, and it seems to more or less agree with the PTS as you
        quoted it, though more confusing of course :) - something like: seeing six benefits, one
        is able to not make a limit in all dhammas and then make anattasa~n~na arise.

        This makes me hesitate to take an alternative reading, but I would like to clear up the
        grammar. "aanisa.mse sampassamaanena alameva bhikkhunaa sabbadhammesu anodhi.m karitvaa
        anattasa~n~na.m upa.t.thaapetu.m."

        If "aanisa.mse sampassamaanena" is to mean "through clearly seeing benefits", then
        shouldn't aanisa.mse be aanisa.msaana'm (through clearly seeing of benefits)?

        Also, "anodhi.m karitva" makes problems as shown in the translation from the Thai above,
        because it either a) seperates anodhi.m (having made already) from anattasa~n~na (future:
        will become established) or b) puts the translation the way I have rendered it originally.

        Please comment.
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Venerable Bhante Yuttadhammo, op 03-03-2005 00:23 schreef Ven. Yuttadhammo op buffer@sirimangalo.org: I would like to clear up the grammar. aanisa.mse
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 3, 2005
          Venerable Bhante Yuttadhammo,
          op 03-03-2005 00:23 schreef Ven. Yuttadhammo op buffer@...:
          I would like to clear up the grammar. "aanisa.mse sampassamaanena alameva
          bhikkhunaa sabbadhammesu anodhi.m karitvaa anattasa~n~na.m
          upa.t.thaapetu.m."
          >
          > If "aanisa.mse sampassamaanena" is to mean "through clearly seeing benefits",
          > then
          > shouldn't aanisa.mse be aanisa.msaana'm (through clearly seeing of benefits)?
          N: aanisa.mse is the object of sampassamaana, this form is correct. By
          clearly seeing the benefits.
          Bh: Also, "anodhi.m karitva" makes problems as shown in the translation
          from the
          > Thai above,
          > because it either a) seperates anodhi.m (having made already) from
          > anattasa~n~na (future:
          > will become established) or b) puts the translation the way I have rendered it
          > originally.
          N: We can read it in different ways.
          You have:"Cha, bhikkhave, aanisa.mse sampassamaanena alameva bhikkhunaa
          sabbadhammesu anodhi.m karitvaa anattasa~n~na.m upa.t.thaapetu.m.
          < Six benefits are indeed fit to be procured, o monks, by a discerning monk
          having made limitless the perception of non-self in regards to all
          formations.>
          It seems that anodhi.m karitvaa belongs to the end, as you have:
          anattasa~n~na.m upa.t.thaapetu.m.
          It seems that by means of seeing...etc. he attains the last:
          anattasa~n~na.m. The last seems to be the result of the sampassamaanena.
          I tried to compare with the preceding suttas, but I do not dare to say much.
          With respect,
          Nina.
        • Ven. Yuttadhammo
          ... Okay, I ll take your word on it... in that case, I m more inclined to give up my translation in favour of the PTS way. I would tentatively translate it
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 3, 2005
            > N: aanisa.mse is the object of sampassamaana, this form is correct. By
            > clearly seeing the benefits.

            Okay, I'll take your word on it... in that case, I'm more inclined to give up my
            translation in favour of the PTS way. I would tentatively translate it thus:

            Cha, bhikkhave, aanisa.mse sampassamaanena alameva bhikkhunaa sabbadhammesu anodhi.m
            karitvaa anattasa~n~na.m upa.t.thaapetu.m.
            Six benefits, when rightly seen by a Bhikkhu, do verily allow for the perception of
            non-self to be procured, having been made without limit in regards to all dhammas.

            It is interesting, I didn't think to translate it this way, because I have never heard of
            the idea that the seeing of potential benefits could be a means of developing anicca,
            dukkha and anatta sa~n~naa, but can see how just hearing about these benefits could indeed
            be a great help to yogis.

            Best wishes,

            Yuttadhammo
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Venerable Bhante Yuttadhammo, ... N: I appreciate your remarks. Seeing the benefits of developing understanding of the three characteristics can encourage a
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 4, 2005
              Venerable Bhante Yuttadhammo,

              op 04-03-2005 02:13 schreef Ven. Yuttadhammo op buffer@...:

              > Cha, bhikkhave, aanisa.mse sampassamaanena alameva bhikkhunaa sabbadhammesu
              > anodhi.m
              > karitvaa anattasa~n~na.m upa.t.thaapetu.m.
              > Six benefits, when rightly seen by a Bhikkhu, do verily allow for the
              > perception of
              > non-self to be procured, having been made without limit in regards to all
              > dhammas.
              >
              > It is interesting, I didn't think to translate it this way, because I have
              > never heard of
              > the idea that the seeing of potential benefits could be a means of developing
              > anicca,
              > dukkha and anatta sa~n~naa, but can see how just hearing about these benefits
              > could indeed
              > be a great help to yogis.
              N: I appreciate your remarks. Seeing the benefits of developing
              understanding of the three characteristics can encourage a person in the
              long process of this development.
              With respect,
              Nina.
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