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Re: [Pali] AN 6.10.9

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Venerable Yuttadhammo, thank you very much. ... N: maya: made of, consisting of. tammayo= tad+mayo, a sandhi . Made of that. In PED under ta, there are good
    Message 1 of 8 , Mar 1 7:39 AM
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      Venerable Yuttadhammo,
      thank you very much.
      op 01-03-2005 05:50 schreef Ven. Yuttadhammo op buffer@...:

      > 1) Some difficulty, especially with "atammayo", which I am taking as
      > "a-tayaa-mayaa-o",
      > which still gives me difficulty, and probably doesn't mean exactly "one who
      > holds it as
      > neither "theirs" nor "mine"" Please comment...
      N: maya: made of, consisting of. tammayo= tad+mayo, a sandhi . Made of that.
      In PED under ta, there are good examples of sandhis of tad and other words.
      Sometimes tad becomes tab or tap and may be hard to recognize.
      My PTS has a footnote: sabbaloke ca atammayo: not made of that.
      As to sabbadhammesu: I would prefer in all dhammas. I am thinking of
      Dhammapada: vs. 279: sabbe dhammaa anattaa, which also includes nibbaana.
      Whereas of aniccaa and dukkha it is said sabbe sankhaaraa, formations.
      ****
      > A'nguttaranikaayo
      > Chakkanipaatapaa.li
      > 10. Aanisa'msavaggo
      > 9. Atammayasutta.m
      > "Cha, bhikkhave, aanisa.mse sampassamaanena alameva bhikkhunaa sabbadhammesu
      > anodhi.m karitvaa anattasa~n~na.m upa.t.thaapetu.m.

      > Six benefits are indeed fit to be procured, o monks, by a discerning monk
      > having made
      > limitless the perception of non-self in regards to all formations.
      N: The PTS is different. It seems that upa.t.thaapetu.m refers to
      anattasa~n~na.m instead of making it refer to the six benefits. By seeing
      six benefits: cha aanisa.mse sampassamaanena.
      PTS: If a monk perceives six benefits, it is enough to establish, without
      reserve, the idea of non-self....
      They translate anodhi.m by: without reserve.
      Bhante: Katame cha? Sabbaloke ca atammayo[1] bhavissaami,
      aha"nkaaraa[2] ca me uparujjhissanti,
      > mama"nkaaraa[3] ca me uparujjhissanti, asaadhaara.nena ca ~naa.nena
      > samannaagato
      > bhavissaami, hetu ca me sudi.t.tho bhavissati, hetusamuppannaa ca dhammaa
      >
      > Which six? In regards to the whole world, I will become one who holds it as
      > neither "theirs" nor "mine";
      N: Sabbaloke ca atammayo[1] bhavissaami: I shall become no part of all
      worlds.
      That is: no rebirth in the kaama world, ruupa plane or aruupa plane.
      Bhante:and "I" fabrications will come to a stop for me; and
      > "mine"
      > fabrications will come to a stop for me;
      N: You mentioned the Co: [2] aha.mkaaraati aha.mkaaradi.t.thi.
      This is clinging to self with wrong view, di.t.thi.
      > [3] mama.mkaaraati mama.mkaarata.nhaa.
      This is clinging with tanha.
      One may cling to the self with conceit (not mentioned here) with wrong view,
      or with attachment without wrong view.
      Bhante: and I will become endowed with extraordinary
      > knowledge; and the cause will be well-seen by me, along with those
      > cause-originating dhammas.
      N: hetusamuppannaa ca dhammaa : samuppannaa: originated or produced.
      dhammaa------>samuppannaa. By what is it originated? By hetus.
      This gives another meaning: the dhammas that are originated by a cause, and
      this sentence relates to the preceding: sudi.t.tho bhavissati , it will be
      well seen by me.
      Actually, this refers to the Dependent Origination that is realized.
      With respect,
      Nina.
    • Ven. Yuttadhammo
      Dear Nina, Thank you, I m sorry to have missed the change from sa nkhaara in 6.10.8 to dhamma in 6.10.9. I ve adjusted it. ... It still seems funny... I
      Message 2 of 8 , Mar 1 4:16 PM
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        Dear Nina,

        Thank you, I'm sorry to have missed the change from "sa'nkhaara" in 6.10.8 to "dhamma" in
        6.10.9. I've adjusted it.

        > N: maya: made of, consisting of. tammayo= tad+mayo, a sandhi . Made of that.
        > In PED under ta, there are good examples of sandhis of tad and other words.
        > Sometimes tad becomes tab or tap and may be hard to recognize.
        > My PTS has a footnote: sabbaloke ca atammayo: not made of that.

        It still seems funny... "I will become one who is not made of that in regards to the whole
        world"? I think I get it...

        >> "Cha, bhikkhave, aanisa.mse sampassamaanena alameva bhikkhunaa sabbadhammesu
        >> anodhi.m karitvaa anattasa~n~na.m upa.t.thaapetu.m.
        >
        >> Six benefits are indeed fit to be procured, o monks, by a discerning monk
        >> having made
        >> limitless the perception of non-self in regards to all formations.
        > N: The PTS is different. It seems that upa.t.thaapetu.m refers to
        > anattasa~n~na.m instead of making it refer to the six benefits. By seeing
        > six benefits: cha aanisa.mse sampassamaanena.
        > PTS: If a monk perceives six benefits, it is enough to establish, without
        > reserve, the idea of non-self....

        I am not sure... is it possible to read it as I have? It seems to make more sense that
        one would "alameva" procure six benefits from "anattasanna", rather than "alameva" procure
        "anattasanna" by seeing six benefits in it...

        Best wishes,

        Yuttadhammo
      • Nina van Gorkom
        Venerable Bhante, ... N: I also find this difficult to read. The meaning could be that he does not cling to the world. ... Bhante: I am not sure... is it
        Message 3 of 8 , Mar 2 10:48 AM
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          Venerable Bhante,
          op 02-03-2005 01:16 schreef Ven. Yuttadhammo op buffer@...:
          >> N: maya: made of, consisting of. tammayo= tad+mayo, a sandhi . Made of that.
          >> In PED under ta, there are good examples of sandhis of tad and other words.
          >> Sometimes tad becomes tab or tap and may be hard to recognize.
          >> My PTS has a footnote: sabbaloke ca atammayo: not made of that.
          >
          > It still seems funny... "I will become one who is not made of that in regards
          > to the whole world"? I think I get it...
          N: I also find this difficult to read. The meaning could be that he does not
          cling to the world.
          >>> "Cha, bhikkhave, aanisa.mse sampassamaanena alameva bhikkhunaa sabbadhammesu
          >>> anodhi.m karitvaa anattasa~n~na.m upa.t.thaapetu.m.
          >>
          >>> Six benefits are indeed fit to be procured, o monks, by a discerning monk
          >>> having made
          >>> limitless the perception of non-self in regards to all formations.
          >> N: The PTS is different. It seems that upa.t.thaapetu.m refers to
          >> anattasa~n~na.m instead of making it refer to the six benefits. By seeing
          >> six benefits: cha aanisa.mse sampassamaanena.
          >> PTS: If a monk perceives six benefits, it is enough to establish, without
          >> reserve, the idea of non-self....
          >
          Bhante: I am not sure... is it possible to read it as I have? It seems to
          make more
          > sense that
          > one would "alameva" procure six benefits from "anattasanna", rather than
          > "alameva" procure
          > "anattasanna" by seeing six benefits in it...
          N: PED: alameva katum: this is proper to be done, or: for sure. Then I think
          your reading is better. Alameva would pertain to upa.t.thaapetu.m,
          establish.
          I compared the Thai but this is difficult.
          With respect,
          Nina.
        • Ven. Yuttadhammo
          ... Thank you. I have read the Thai, and it seems to more or less agree with the PTS as you quoted it, though more confusing of course :) - something like:
          Message 4 of 8 , Mar 2 3:23 PM
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            > N: PED: alameva katum: this is proper to be done, or: for sure. Then I think
            > your reading is better. Alameva would pertain to upa.t.thaapetu.m,
            > establish.
            > I compared the Thai but this is difficult.

            Thank you. I have read the Thai, and it seems to more or less agree with the PTS as you
            quoted it, though more confusing of course :) - something like: seeing six benefits, one
            is able to not make a limit in all dhammas and then make anattasa~n~na arise.

            This makes me hesitate to take an alternative reading, but I would like to clear up the
            grammar. "aanisa.mse sampassamaanena alameva bhikkhunaa sabbadhammesu anodhi.m karitvaa
            anattasa~n~na.m upa.t.thaapetu.m."

            If "aanisa.mse sampassamaanena" is to mean "through clearly seeing benefits", then
            shouldn't aanisa.mse be aanisa.msaana'm (through clearly seeing of benefits)?

            Also, "anodhi.m karitva" makes problems as shown in the translation from the Thai above,
            because it either a) seperates anodhi.m (having made already) from anattasa~n~na (future:
            will become established) or b) puts the translation the way I have rendered it originally.

            Please comment.
          • Nina van Gorkom
            Venerable Bhante Yuttadhammo, op 03-03-2005 00:23 schreef Ven. Yuttadhammo op buffer@sirimangalo.org: I would like to clear up the grammar. aanisa.mse
            Message 5 of 8 , Mar 3 10:59 AM
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              Venerable Bhante Yuttadhammo,
              op 03-03-2005 00:23 schreef Ven. Yuttadhammo op buffer@...:
              I would like to clear up the grammar. "aanisa.mse sampassamaanena alameva
              bhikkhunaa sabbadhammesu anodhi.m karitvaa anattasa~n~na.m
              upa.t.thaapetu.m."
              >
              > If "aanisa.mse sampassamaanena" is to mean "through clearly seeing benefits",
              > then
              > shouldn't aanisa.mse be aanisa.msaana'm (through clearly seeing of benefits)?
              N: aanisa.mse is the object of sampassamaana, this form is correct. By
              clearly seeing the benefits.
              Bh: Also, "anodhi.m karitva" makes problems as shown in the translation
              from the
              > Thai above,
              > because it either a) seperates anodhi.m (having made already) from
              > anattasa~n~na (future:
              > will become established) or b) puts the translation the way I have rendered it
              > originally.
              N: We can read it in different ways.
              You have:"Cha, bhikkhave, aanisa.mse sampassamaanena alameva bhikkhunaa
              sabbadhammesu anodhi.m karitvaa anattasa~n~na.m upa.t.thaapetu.m.
              < Six benefits are indeed fit to be procured, o monks, by a discerning monk
              having made limitless the perception of non-self in regards to all
              formations.>
              It seems that anodhi.m karitvaa belongs to the end, as you have:
              anattasa~n~na.m upa.t.thaapetu.m.
              It seems that by means of seeing...etc. he attains the last:
              anattasa~n~na.m. The last seems to be the result of the sampassamaanena.
              I tried to compare with the preceding suttas, but I do not dare to say much.
              With respect,
              Nina.
            • Ven. Yuttadhammo
              ... Okay, I ll take your word on it... in that case, I m more inclined to give up my translation in favour of the PTS way. I would tentatively translate it
              Message 6 of 8 , Mar 3 5:13 PM
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                > N: aanisa.mse is the object of sampassamaana, this form is correct. By
                > clearly seeing the benefits.

                Okay, I'll take your word on it... in that case, I'm more inclined to give up my
                translation in favour of the PTS way. I would tentatively translate it thus:

                Cha, bhikkhave, aanisa.mse sampassamaanena alameva bhikkhunaa sabbadhammesu anodhi.m
                karitvaa anattasa~n~na.m upa.t.thaapetu.m.
                Six benefits, when rightly seen by a Bhikkhu, do verily allow for the perception of
                non-self to be procured, having been made without limit in regards to all dhammas.

                It is interesting, I didn't think to translate it this way, because I have never heard of
                the idea that the seeing of potential benefits could be a means of developing anicca,
                dukkha and anatta sa~n~naa, but can see how just hearing about these benefits could indeed
                be a great help to yogis.

                Best wishes,

                Yuttadhammo
              • Nina van Gorkom
                Venerable Bhante Yuttadhammo, ... N: I appreciate your remarks. Seeing the benefits of developing understanding of the three characteristics can encourage a
                Message 7 of 8 , Mar 4 6:35 AM
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                  Venerable Bhante Yuttadhammo,

                  op 04-03-2005 02:13 schreef Ven. Yuttadhammo op buffer@...:

                  > Cha, bhikkhave, aanisa.mse sampassamaanena alameva bhikkhunaa sabbadhammesu
                  > anodhi.m
                  > karitvaa anattasa~n~na.m upa.t.thaapetu.m.
                  > Six benefits, when rightly seen by a Bhikkhu, do verily allow for the
                  > perception of
                  > non-self to be procured, having been made without limit in regards to all
                  > dhammas.
                  >
                  > It is interesting, I didn't think to translate it this way, because I have
                  > never heard of
                  > the idea that the seeing of potential benefits could be a means of developing
                  > anicca,
                  > dukkha and anatta sa~n~naa, but can see how just hearing about these benefits
                  > could indeed
                  > be a great help to yogis.
                  N: I appreciate your remarks. Seeing the benefits of developing
                  understanding of the three characteristics can encourage a person in the
                  long process of this development.
                  With respect,
                  Nina.
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