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scope of 'iti' [was: Re: Pali Day by Day 1/31/2005]

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  • rett
    Hi Charles and group, Just for fun, if you re in the mood, why not try translating: kumbhiilo sunakha.m gahetvaa khaadissaamii ti gaama.m agami kumbhiila:
    Message 1 of 1247 , Feb 3, 2005
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      Hi Charles and group,

      Just for fun, if you're in the mood, why not try translating:

      kumbhiilo sunakha.m gahetvaa khaadissaamii ti gaama.m agami


      kumbhiila: crocodile
      khaadati: eat (khaadissaami: 1st person, singular, future)
      gacchati: go (agami: 3rd person, singular, aorist)
      ga.nhati: seize, grasp, catch (gehetvaa: absolutive 'having seized')
      gaama: village
      sunakha: dog

      The answer comes below in connection with the scope of iti phrases.


      >Over at the "Concise Pali-English Dictionary"
      >(http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-pe/dictpe-03-i.htm), I
      >found "iti : [ind.] thus. (used to point out something just
      >mentioned or about to be mentioned, and to show that a sentence is
      >finished). Very often its former i is elided and ti only is
      >remaining. || îti (f.), calamity.".
      >
      >In "Introduction to Pali", pp. 35-36, "ti" is defined (basically -
      >see text for fuller definition) as an end-quote.
      >
      >I'm suspecting Yong Peng's translation is correct, and that "ti" is
      >functioning as a "verbal period" (first usage above), but would
      >appreciate any additional insight.

      The function of iti is to nominalize a word or
      phrase. That amounts to what we would call
      putting a phrase inside quotation marks. The
      phrase or word can then function as a subject or
      object within a sentence. Examples:

      "Three blind mice" is a three-word phrase.

      The mailman said "bite me".

      "At" is a preposition but "ate" is a finite verb.

      All of these would be rendered in Pali with the
      word iti at the position where the end-quote is
      located in the English. However the position of
      the start-quote is not marked in Pali. So to
      return to your original question, editors
      sometimes put quotation marks into Pali to show
      the exact scope of the iti; this amounts to
      marking the unmarked 'start-quote'. It's foreign
      to Pali bu can be helpful since it's not always
      clear exactly where the nominalized phrase begins.

      Iti can be used to mark direct speech, as in the
      original example sentence, or to show the cause
      or intention for acting. An example of the latter
      is the sentence at the beginning of this post:

      kumbhiilo sunakha.m gahetvaa khaadissaamii ti gaama.m agami.

      The crocodile went to the village to catch a dog to eat

      The crocodile, thinking "having caught a dog, I
      shall eat (it)", went to the village.

      Wanting to catch a dog to eat, the crocodile went to the village.

      Since it might be hard to know exactly how wide
      the scope of the iti is in that sentence, it
      might be helpful to write it like this:

      kumbhiilo "sunakha.m gahetvaa khaadissaamii" ti gaama.m agami.

      This rules out the possible alternative reading,
      Having caught a dog, the crocodile went to the
      village thinking "I shall eat", which could be
      marked in the Pali:

      kumbhiilo sunakha.m gahetvaa "khaadissaamii" ti gaama.m agami.

      Here the scope of the iti is much narrower.

      The difference, of course, is whether the
      crocodile has already caught the dog before going
      to the village to eat, or intends to catch the
      dog at the village and then eat it. Common sense
      makes the choice obvious when the sentence is
      alone, but in some contexts the other could just
      as well be correct. For example, in a fable the
      crocodile could have been told by a villager
      "catch that dog and bring it here and I will give
      you a buffalo to eat".

      Usually editors won't use quotation marks, since
      they prefer to let the reader decide which
      interpretation is the correct one. But in
      primers, or if the purpose is to indicate a
      particular interpretation, quotation marks can be
      used like here.


      best regards,

      /Rett
    • Dhivan Thomas Jones
      Hello Jayarava and friends, In Norman s translation of the Dhammapada, in his note for v.259, he directs the reader s attention to verses 8, 128, 168, 172 and
      Message 1247 of 1247 , Jul 4, 2011
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        Hello Jayarava and friends,

        In Norman's translation of the Dhammapada, in his note for v.259, he directs the reader's attention to verses 8, 128, 168, 172 and 177, where there is the same consonant doubling of p before na as in v.259 (pamajjati to nappamajjati) after what he calls the 'proclitic' use of na. So the formation seems to be a regular phonological feature in Pali.

        Dhivan

        www.dhivan.net



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