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Mahasudassanasutta

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  • "Kåre A. Lie"
    Hi, I seem to remember having read somewhere that the Mahasudassanasutta (Dighanikaya 17) in some Chinese translation of the Agamas is included in the
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 4, 2005
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      Hi,

      I seem to remember having read somewhere that the Mahasudassanasutta
      (Dighanikaya 17) in some Chinese translation of the Agamas is included in
      the Mahaparinibbanasutta (Dighanikaya 16) instead of appearing as a
      separate text.

      But I may be wrong.

      Does anyone know?

      Best regards,


      Kåre A. Lie
      http://www.lienet.no/
    • Bhante Sujato
      Hello Kare The Sanskrit version of the Mahaparinirvana Sutra (reconstructed by Waldschmidt from fragments found in Chinese Turkestan and published in 1950)
      Message 2 of 3 , Jan 4, 2005
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        Hello Kare


        The Sanskrit version of the Mahaparinirvana Sutra (reconstructed by
        Waldschmidt from fragments found in Chinese Turkestan and published
        in 1950) belongs to the Sarvastivada school. It includes a version
        of the Mahasudassana Sutta; this extends from 34.1-34.169 according
        to Waldschmidt's numbering; in other words, in between the place
        where Ananda questions why the Buddha wants to pass away in such an
        indsignificant wattle-and-daub town like Kusinara, and the place
        where the Buddha tells Upavana (Upamana in Skt) to move out of the
        way so that Devas can see. I have an English translation of this
        important text, done as a Uni thesis by Mark Allon; unfortunately he
        is a bit reluctant to let it see wider distribution in its current
        form, but i still hope that somehow the translation will see the
        light of day.

        Translations of this text also exist in Chinese and Tibetan (these
        were used by Waldschmidt to help in the reconstruction). I am not
        100% sure that these also include the Mahasudassana Sutta, although
        it is likely. The Chinese in fact has several translations of the
        Mahaparinirvana Sutra. Many of these are independent translations,
        so their doctrinal affiliation is unsure. Please let me know if you
        would like some more specific details as to references, etc., and
        i'll see what i can do.

        Waldschmidt was of the opinion that the Mahasudassana Sutta was
        originally part of the Mahaparinirvana narrative, and was later
        removed in the Pali version. This seems to be part of a theory that
        was popular in the time among the scholars such as Frauwallner that
        there was earlier a long narrative of the important events in the
        Buddha's life that was later broken up. I don't think this theory is
        accepted by many these days, so Waldschmidt's claim might be
        questioned. In other words, we might consider it likely that the
        Mahasudassana Sutta was originally a separate text (as in the Pali)
        that was later included in the long narrative. However i have not
        looked into the matter in detail.

        in Dhamma

        Bhante Sujato


        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Kåre A. Lie" <alberlie@o...> wrote:
        >
        > Hi,
        >
        > I seem to remember having read somewhere that the
        Mahasudassanasutta
        > (Dighanikaya 17) in some Chinese translation of the Agamas is
        included in
        > the Mahaparinibbanasutta (Dighanikaya 16) instead of appearing as
        a
        > separate text.
        >
        > But I may be wrong.
        >
        > Does anyone know?
        >
        > Best regards,
        >
        >
        > Kåre A. Lie
        > http://www.lienet.no/
      • "Kåre A. Lie"
        ... Thank you very much, Bhante! This is sufficient information, and I need no further details. I am translating vol. 2 of the Digha Nikaya into Norwegian
        Message 3 of 3 , Jan 5, 2005
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          At 07:13 05.01.2005 +0000, you wrote:


          >Hello Kare
          >
          >
          >The Sanskrit version of the Mahaparinirvana Sutra (reconstructed by
          >Waldschmidt from fragments found in Chinese Turkestan and published
          >in 1950) belongs to the Sarvastivada school. It includes a version
          >of the Mahasudassana Sutta; this extends from 34.1-34.169 according
          >to Waldschmidt's numbering; in other words, in between the place
          >where Ananda questions why the Buddha wants to pass away in such an
          >indsignificant wattle-and-daub town like Kusinara, and the place
          >where the Buddha tells Upavana (Upamana in Skt) to move out of the
          >way so that Devas can see. I have an English translation of this
          >important text, done as a Uni thesis by Mark Allon; unfortunately he
          >is a bit reluctant to let it see wider distribution in its current
          >form, but i still hope that somehow the translation will see the
          >light of day.
          >
          >Translations of this text also exist in Chinese and Tibetan (these
          >were used by Waldschmidt to help in the reconstruction). I am not
          >100% sure that these also include the Mahasudassana Sutta, although
          >it is likely. The Chinese in fact has several translations of the
          >Mahaparinirvana Sutra. Many of these are independent translations,
          >so their doctrinal affiliation is unsure. Please let me know if you
          >would like some more specific details as to references, etc., and
          >i'll see what i can do.
          >
          >Waldschmidt was of the opinion that the Mahasudassana Sutta was
          >originally part of the Mahaparinirvana narrative, and was later
          >removed in the Pali version. This seems to be part of a theory that
          >was popular in the time among the scholars such as Frauwallner that
          >there was earlier a long narrative of the important events in the
          >Buddha's life that was later broken up. I don't think this theory is
          >accepted by many these days, so Waldschmidt's claim might be
          >questioned. In other words, we might consider it likely that the
          >Mahasudassana Sutta was originally a separate text (as in the Pali)
          >that was later included in the long narrative. However i have not
          >looked into the matter in detail.
          >
          >in Dhamma
          >
          >Bhante Sujato

          Thank you very much, Bhante!

          This is sufficient information, and I need no further details. I am
          translating vol. 2 of the Digha Nikaya into Norwegian (vol. 1 was published
          some years ago), and I wanted to include some information about this in the
          introduction to the Mahasudassanasutta, so for such an introduction this is
          even more than I needed. But I am glad to have my vague memory confirmed.

          Yours in the Dhamma

          Kåre A. Lie
          http://www.lienet.no/
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