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Re: [Pali] Traditional grammar 3: Kc 3, 4, 5

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  • Nina van Gorkom
    Dear Rett, Thank you very much. A few questions. ... N: You spoke of the Indian alphabeth as very brilliant, and now I am thinking of the system. I think when
    Message 1 of 38 , Dec 16, 2004
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      Dear Rett,
      Thank you very much.
      A few questions.
      op 15-12-2004 14:58 schreef rett op rett@...:
      >
      > Here, among the syllables, in the (list) beginning with the sound
      > 'a', the eight which end with 'o' are called vowels. The following:
      > a aa i ii u uu e o, are called vowels. What is the purpose of
      > (defining the term) 'vowel'? There is ellision of a vowel before a
      > vowel (Kc 12).
      N: You spoke of the Indian alphabeth as very brilliant, and now I am
      thinking of the system. I think when pronouncing aloud, it begins with what
      is in the back of the throat, but I cannot quite make this our for e and o.
      Also the conconats give me trouble. Ka, yes, but the others?
      Some people have trouble with the alphabethical order in the dictionnary,
      but it helps to know the why.
      >
      R: o-d-anta: The letter 'd' is optionally inserted between two vowels,
      > to prevent their juxtaposition. This is in accordance with Kc 35,
      > ya-va-ma-da-na-ta-ra-laa caagamo /35/ "And the (optional )insertion
      > (aagamo) of y, v, m, d, n, t, r, l.
      N: about aagamo, it gets interesting when we apply it. I give an example in
      the Visuddhimagga Tiika, to XIV, 124, about the arahat who makes an end to
      the cycle: yo pana arahatta.m paapunaati sammaapa.tipattimanvaayaati
      adhippaayo: the meaning as regards who has accomplished arahatship, this is
      the appropriate practice (sammaapa.tipattimanvaayaati).
      When looking up the word manvaayaa, we get astray, the m is inserted. See,
      it can help us not going wrong with the dictionnary.
      It is good if others provide more examples, then we do not forget it. Warder
      p. 215, 215 also gives examples. By the way, it is helpful if you also refer
      to Warder now and then (as you did for the poetry) so that we can look it
      up.
      We had already kho attho> khvattho.
      I do not know whether there are rules which of the ya-va-ma-da-na-ta-ra-laa
      is inserted where? But we shall see in the payoga in the texts.
      R: Text, suttas 4 and 5. These are pretty similar to 3 above, so perhaps
      > you can translate them for yourself:
      N: Yes, give us some homework.

      lahumattaa tayo rassaa /4/
      There are three short vowels,[ in the case of] short metrical quantity

      tattha a.t.thasu saresu lahumattaa tayo rassaa naama honti /
      in this context, among the eight vowels three, that are of short metrical
      quantity, are named short.

      ta.m yathaa a i u iti rassaa naama /
      such as follows (ta.m yathaa), the a i u are thus called short

      rassa iccanena kvattho / rassa.m //
      this means here short
      (Not sure about iccanena, from iti)
      > aññe diighaa /5/
      the others are long.

      > tattha a.t.thasu saresu rassehi aññe pañca saraa diigha naama honti /
      Here with regard to the eight vowels, the other five are called long.
      ( why a.t.thasu saresu rassehi ? )

      > diigha iccanena kvattho / diigha.m //
      thus here the meaning is long.
      Nina.
    • Nina van Gorkom
      Hi Rett, Thank you, this is very clear, with all the word lists. I especially like the last example by Aggava.msa, giving three varieties of niggahiita in one
      Message 38 of 38 , Dec 28, 2004
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        Hi Rett,
        Thank you, this is very clear, with all the word lists. I especially like
        the last example by Aggava.msa, giving three varieties of niggahiita in one
        sentence.
        Nina.
        op 28-12-2004 12:53 schreef rett op rett@...:

        >
        > Exploring Traditional Pali Grammar 5
        > Kaccaayana suttas 7 and 8, and sutta 8 from Saddaniiti, by way of comparison.
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