Re: [Pali] Pali Primer - Lesson 13
- I agree with Bhante Kumaara that this was a tough
lesson. In addition to the things he has pointed out,
I would like to bring people's attention to what
appear to be several errors in the Key.
Translate to Pali.
#12 ... the child runs home
the key chooses kumaaro. I would have thought this
should be daarako.
#21 ... to protect...
the key uses aarakkhitum, yet the word given in the
book and glossary is rakkhitum.
#25 .. who admonish ...
the key says anusaasenta, yet I believe it should be
#27 ... throws ...
the key uses nikkhipati, yet khipati is the word the
book uses for throw. I supposes nikkhipati means put
down, or could even be throw down.
--- Kumaara Bhikkhu <venkumara@...> wrote:
> I remember this to be a tough lesson due to the=== message truncated ===
> sudden jump in the amount of things to learn. On top
> of that, the exercises contain things that are not
> properly taught at all. It seems the author expects
> learners to pick up things through the "Translate to
> English" exercise. This is also true for some other
> lessons to come.
> So, learners need to be a bit more patient here. If
> it's any consolation, the next lesson is a breeze.
> Again, here are my comments and additions to Yong
> Peng's contribution:
> >Present Tense, Active Voice
> >(a) pacati
> > 3rd Person: [sing.] pacati [plur.] pacanti
> > 2nd Person: [sing.] pacasi [plur.] pacatha
> > 1st Person: [sing.] pacaami [plur.] pacaama
> >(b) coreti
> > 3rd person: [sing.] coreti [plur.] corenti
> > 2nd person: [sing.] coresi [plur.] coretha
> > 1st person: [sing.] coremi [plur.] corema
> (b) is basically the same as (a). The difference is
> that the "e" always remains "e". It doesn't become
> "ee" in the 1st person. This is because "e" is
> already a "long vowel". There's absolutely no such
> thing as "ee" in Pali.
> If you're interested in the pronunciation, the "e"
> in "corenti" is not pronounced long due to a double
> consonant immediately after it. If it's pronounced
> long, the word would sound too much of a drag.
> >(c) ki.naati
> > 3rd person: [sing.] ki.naati [plur.] ki.nanti
> > 2nd person: [sing.] ki.naasi [plur.] ki.naatha
> > 1st person: [sing.] ki.naami [plur.] ki.naama
> The "-naa" base ending includes ".naa" and ".nhaa".
> It's in a way quite similar to verbs with -a base
> ending, like pacati. The seemingly odd one out is
> In 3rd person pl., we see "ki.nanti" instead of
> "ki.naanti". Why?
> The word would sound too much of a drag.
> Seriously, just as in "corenti" we can't have a
> "long e" due to the double consonant that comes
> immediately after it, just so (This sounds like a
> sutta, doesn't it?) in "ki.nanti" we can't have a
> long "a" due to the double consonant that comes
> immediately after it.
> A long vowel can never occur before a double
> consonant. (Note: kh, gh, ch, jh, etc. are actually
> single consonants.)
> >Translate into English:
> >4. Tumhe ara~n~ne vasante mige pii.letvaa
> asappurisaa hotha.
> >tumhe = you (plur.)
> >ara~n~ne = forest (loc.)
> >vasante = living
> >mige = deer (acc.)
> >pii.letvaa = having oppressed
> >asappurisaa = wicked men (nom.)
> >hotha = become
> >Ans: Having oppressed deer living in the forest,
> you become wicked
> Grammatically, the answer is correct. In meaning,
> however, it's better to render it as:
> You are wicked men because you oppress deer
> living in the forest.
> Learners may be a bit irritated by the unfamiliarity
> of the last word "hotha". It seems that you're
> expected to figure that out yourself. If you're
> beginning to have a headache, perhaps I can offer
> some relief by giving you this:
> sg pl
> 3rd hoti honti
> 2nd hosi hotha
> 1st homi homa
> Just as there is no such thing as "ee", there's no
> "oo" as well.
> Another point which beginners may find peculiar in
> the Pali sentence above is that "asappurisaa" is in
> the nominative, instead of being in the accusative
> "asappurise" as what beginners may expect.
> Let me try put this in a way I think is simple:
> When we need to say that A *is* B, both A and B must
> be in the nominative. The same goes for "am, are,
> was, were, become, became, to be, having been, etc."
> E.g.: Aha.m Kumaaro (homi).
> Te coraa (homa).
> To put in another way, "hoti", "bhavati", "atthi"
> (together with their various forms) have the object
> in the nominative.
> >5. Maya.m aapa.na.m gantvaa vaa.nijehi saddhi.m
> kathetvaa dha~n~na.m
> >maya.m = we
> >aapa.na.m = shop (acc.)
> >gantvaa = having gone
> >vaa.nijehi = merchants (ins.)
> >saddhi.m = with (indec.)
> >kathetvaa = having spoken
> >dha~n~na.m = corn (acc.)
> >vikki.naama = sell
> >Ans: We go to the shop, speak with the merchants
> and sell corn (to
> The meaning is there, but it sounds a bit odd,
> doesn't it?
> Perhaps it may sound better like this:
> We, having gone to the shop, speak with the
> merchants and sell corn (to
> >11. Upaasakaa vihaara.m gantvaa diipe jaaletvaa
> dhamma.m sotu.m
> >upaasakaa = lay devotees (nom.)
> >vihaara.m = monastery (acc.)
> >gantvaa = having gone
> >diipe = lamps (acc.)
> >jaaletvaa = having kindled
> >dhamma.m = doctrine (acc.)
> >sotu.m = to hear
> >nisiidanti = sit
> >Ans: Lay devotees, having gone to the monastery and
> >lamps, sit down to hear/listen to the dhamma.
> In reference to my comments on the earlier lesson,
> this Pali sentence of course should not be
> translated as
> Lay devotees sit down to go to the
> monastery, kindle the lamps and listen to the
> Some common sense is certainly necessary.
> >16. Dhammena manusse paalentaa bhuupaalaa akusala.m
> >Ans: Kings ruling men righteously avoid evil.
> "Manusse" here can also be translated as "people".
> >19. Dha~n~na.m minanto kassako aapa.na.m netvaa
> >vikki.nitu.m cinteti.
> >Ans: The farmer measuring corn intends to take it
> to the market and
> >sell it.
> "Neti" can also be "nayati". It can mean "takes
> away", like "harati"; it can also mean lead.
> "Nayati" may remind some of "nayaka", which we can
> find in the official title of some *leader* monks.
> Yes, "nayaka" means "leader".
> >23. Corehi saddhi.m gehe bhinditvaa manusse
> pii.lentaa tumhe
> >asappurisaa hotha.
> >Ans: You are wicked men who oppress people by
> breaking into houses
> >with robbers.
> I'd put this as:
> You are wicked men who break into houses with
> robbers and oppress people.
> Anyone would like to comment on this?
> >26. Tva.m asappurisa, Buddhena desenta.m dhamma.m
> sutvaa sappuriso
> >bhavitu.m ussahasi.
Do You Yahoo!?
Find a job, post your resume.
- Dear all,
I've been absent since November as I was somewhat busy then for our Kathina day (18 Nov) and after that on some other matters, including a much needed meditation retreat. I've also been spending much time in learning and memorizing the Patimokkha under the guidance of my acariya, Ven. Aggacitta Bhikkhu. I'm at the end of Sanghadisesa now. The Pali does appear rather different from what I've learnt in "Pali Primer".
Anyway, here's my very, very belated comments on Yong Peng's notes.
As mentioned earlier, Lesson 14 is (relatively) a breeze. This chapter however give us some interesting Pali food for thought.
At 10:20 PM 13-11-01, Ong Yong Peng wrote:
>Translate into English:My teacher's answer:
>7. Pu~n~na.m kaatu.m icchantaa tumhe sappurisaa paapamitte
>pu~n~na.m = merit (acc.)
>kaatu.m = to do
>icchantaa = wishing
>tumhe = you
>sappurisaa = good men (nom.)
>paapamitte = evil friends (acc.)
>ovadissatha = will advise
>Ans: Wishing to do merit, you good men will advise evil/wicked
You good/virtuous men who wish to do merit shall advise evil/wicked friends.
I think there's an important difference in meaning. If the Pali sentence were to have been
pu~n~na.m kaatu.m icchantaa
sappurisaa paapamitte ovadissatha.
then the English translation would be as given, i.e.,
Wishing to do merit, you good men will advise evil/wicked friends.
or, to put it in a different way,
You good men, wishing to do merit, will advise evil/wicked friends.
>14. Buddhe pasiiditvaa upaasako devaputto hutvaa saggaloke uppajjati.Literally, "devaputta" means a deity's son or god's son (Jesus Christ?!). But it's actually just something like saying "Sakyaputta", which means "Sakyan son". I get the idea that it connote something like an "offspring of the Sakyan clan". In the same way, I think "devaputta" carries the idea of "a son of the deva community", and not the literal "son of a deity". Would appreciate any differing opinions.
>devaputto = deity (acc.)
Also, I don't think this can be rightly taken as an accusative, since it's obviously in the nominative form. In the sense of English grammar, it's an "object". But in terms of Pali grammar, I don't know what it can be called. My teacher calls it a "transferred subject". This is just grammar talk, of course, but if anyone knows of another term for it, I'll be happy to know.
>20. Paapa.m parivajjetvaa kusala.m karonte sappurise devaaI prefer to think that "vajjeti" by itself already mean "avoid".
>Ans: Deities will honour virtuous men avoiding evil and doing good.
The prefix "pari" carries the meaning of
"parisuddhi": thorough purity;
"parinibbana": complete release;
"paripucchati": interrogate (lit. ask thoroughly),
or "around", e.g.
"paribbajati": wander about;
"paribbaajaka": wondering ascetic;
"parisiñcati": sprinkle all over.
So, I think "parivajjeti" is better translated as "completely avoid" or "shun" (which I think carries a stronger connotation than just "avoid").
>21. Sacca.m bhaasantaa asappurise anusaasantaa pa.n.ditaa upaasakaaDon't you find something funny in the meaning of the sentence?
>Ans: Wise people who speak the truth and admonish evil men will
>become lay devotees.
My teacher says a suitable English translation of that should be:
The wise people who speak the truth and instruct evil men are probably lay devotees.
[Note: upaasakaa here probably refers to "lay followers of the Buddha", making the sentence: The wise people who speak the truth and instruct evil men are probably lay followers of the Buddha.]
Here, the "ssa" future tense is used to convey probability.
Some of you may have read or heard about a conversation between the Buddha and Do.na the brahmin (AN IV 36):
Devo no bhava.m bhavissatiiti?
Na kho aha.m, braahma.na, devo bhavissaamiiti.
Gandhabbo no bhava.m bhavissatiiti?
Na kho aha.m, braahma.na, gandhabbo bhavissaamiiti.
Yakkho no bhava.m bhavissatiiti?
Na kho aha.m, braahma.na, yakkho bhavissaamiiti.
Manusso no bhava.m bhavissatiiti?
Na kho aha.m, braahma.na, manusso bhavissaamiiti.
A literal translation:
'Will you, sir, be a deva?'
'No, braahmin, I will not be a deva.'
'Will you, sir, be a gandhabba?'
'No, braahmin, I will not be a gandhabba.'
'Will you, sir, be a yakkha?'
'No, braahmin, I will not be a yakkha.'
'Will you, sir, be a human?'
'No, braahmin, I will not be a human.'
You may find that the above translation does not fit well in the context. A better English rendering of what Do.na the brahmin was saying may be:
'Would you, sir, be a deva... gandhabba... yakkha... human?'
'Could you, sir, be a deva... gandhabba... yakkha... human?'
From the context, we could see that the Buddha purposely answered in the same "ssa" form, so that He could tell the brahmin that he will not become any of those things as He had freed himself from rebirth.
>Translate into Paali:This answer may give the impression that:
>2. I will advise the king to rule the island righteously with his
>Ans: Aha.m amaccehi saha dhammena diipa.m paaletu.m bhuupala.m
"I together with the ministers will advise the king to rule the island righteously."
Would be better to put the "bhuupala.m" after "Aha.m":
"Aha.m bhuupala.m amaccehi saha dhammena diipa.m paaletu.m ovadissaami."
>13. Paaniiyena patta.m puuretvaa daarako odana.m bhu~njantaayaWhat the book tells us in Chapter 5 gives us the impression that "aaya" and "assa" are interchangeable as singular dative case endings for "-a" masculine nouns. However, from what my teacher told me, "aaya" has a more specific usage, that is "for the sake of", e.g.: Naro puttaaya kamma.m karoti.
Therefore, it would be better to substitute "bhu~njantaaya yaacakaaya" with "bhu~njantassa yaacakassa".
>23. Dhammena vasanto/jiivanto tva.m sappuriso hosi."Jiivanto" would be a better choice. "Vasati" means something like "stay, abide, reside (somewhere)".
As always, I'd appreciate any sharing of differing views.
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @... address at http://mail.yahoo.com