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Fantizi or Jiantizi?

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  • Piya Tan
    Bhante & friends, I have finished working on the study notes on Dh 97 (Two levels of religious language) in the Sutta Discovery vol 10 (2005). Thanks to a gift
    Message 1 of 8 , Oct 6, 2004
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      Bhante & friends,

      I have finished working on the study notes on Dh 97 (Two levels of
      religious language) in the Sutta Discovery vol 10 (2005). Thanks to a gift
      of the CBETA CD Chinese Tripitakas, I am able to find all the Chinese
      characters I need for the citations. However I notice that the references
      given by Minoru Hara does not exactly concur with the numbering in the
      CBETA Taisho. I have to go by the Volume No, and then the Page, and run
      through the whole list. Anyway, I managed to find 4 Chinese versions of Dh
      97 quoted by Hara. This has been a most absorbing and interesting
      enterprise in my first attempt at familiarising myself with the Chinese
      characters.

      I have used the old style classical Fantizi (mainland China uses the
      simplified Jiantizi). My gut feeling is that the Fantizi might be more
      useful since the Chinese Tripitaka uses it, and modern scholars as such
      would be more familiar with it. However, I am not sure if there are greater
      benefits in using the simplified Jiantizi.

      Sidenote. Apparently, KR Norman is not the first person to give a detailed
      study of the two levels of meanings in Dh 97. Minoru Hara in his "A note on
      Dhammapada 97" (Indo-Iranian Journal 35,2-3 July 1992:179-191) shows that,
      over a millennium ago, the bhaa.syakaara (commentator) on the
      Abhidharmasamuccaya has actually discussed the bad and the good senses of
      the 5 adjectives of Dh 97. Sadhu!

      Norman's work nevertheless remains valuable. Hara, however, gives
      prodigious examples of the usages of the adjectives in other Sanskrit works.

      This is perhaps the longest essay I have worked on that is based merely on
      one Dhammapada stanza (19 pages so far)! As the Sutta study notes are meant
      for a one and a half to 2-hour classes, I usually limit my Sutta study
      notes to some 5-8 pages. We might study this paper over 2 lessons.

      Any feedback on the use of Jiantizi or Fantizi is most appreciated.

      Sukhi

      Piya


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Bhante Sujato
      ... the ... more ... such ... are greater ... Hello Piya Tan Great to hear you are finding results already using the Chinese. I am very far from being an
      Message 2 of 8 , Oct 8, 2004
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        --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan <libris@s...> wrote:
        > Bhante & friends,
        >
        > I have used the old style classical Fantizi (mainland China uses
        the
        > simplified Jiantizi). My gut feeling is that the Fantizi might be
        more
        > useful since the Chinese Tripitaka uses it, and modern scholars as
        such
        > would be more familiar with it. However, I am not sure if there
        are greater
        > benefits in using the simplified Jiantizi.


        Hello Piya Tan

        Great to hear you are finding results already using the Chinese.

        I am very far from being an expert, but i understand that basically
        all Buddhist scholarship is done using the traditional characters
        (Fantizi). Ven Analayo strongly recommends using the Dr Eye
        software, which he says makes reading the agamas in
        Chinese 'kindergarten'. There is a specific Buddhist Chinese upgrade
        for this which he has and is sending to me. Do you want it? I can
        find out details for you, though i don't have them to hand. I am
        still working on the Rosetta basic Chinese (ni hao ma?).

        I just received an email from the Thai group, associated with
        Culalongkorn Uni, who have completed (but not yet published) the
        first critical edition of the Pali canon. Now they are talking about
        a 'world tipitaka': a full digital architecture for all Buddhist
        scriptures in all languages. Wow! I'll give you more info as i find
        out about it.

        in Dhamma

        Bhante Sujato
      • Bhante Sujato
        ... the ... more ... such ... are greater ... Hello Piya Tan Great to hear you are finding results already using the Chinese. I am very far from being an
        Message 3 of 8 , Oct 8, 2004
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          --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan <libris@s...> wrote:
          > Bhante & friends,
          >
          > I have used the old style classical Fantizi (mainland China uses
          the
          > simplified Jiantizi). My gut feeling is that the Fantizi might be
          more
          > useful since the Chinese Tripitaka uses it, and modern scholars as
          such
          > would be more familiar with it. However, I am not sure if there
          are greater
          > benefits in using the simplified Jiantizi.


          Hello Piya Tan

          Great to hear you are finding results already using the Chinese.

          I am very far from being an expert, but i understand that basically
          all Buddhist scholarship is done using the traditional characters
          (Fantizi). Ven Analayo strongly recommends using the Dr Eye
          software, which he says makes reading the agamas in
          Chinese 'kindergarten'. There is a specific Buddhist Chinese upgrade
          for this which he has and is sending to me. Do you want it? I can
          find out details for you, though i don't have them to hand. I am
          still working on the Rosetta basic Chinese (ni hao ma?).

          I just received an email from the Thai group, associated with
          Culalongkorn Uni, who have completed (but not yet published) the
          first critical edition of the Pali canon. Now they are talking about
          a 'world tipitaka': a full digital architecture for all Buddhist
          scriptures in all languages. Wow! I'll give you more info as i find
          out about it.

          in Dhamma

          Bhante Sujato
        • Piya Tan
          Bhante, Nin hao. I think Ven Analayo s suggestion agrees with many others. For example, Chinese masters often would comment on the structure of the Chinese
          Message 4 of 8 , Oct 8, 2004
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            Bhante,

            Nin hao.

            I think Ven Analayo's suggestion agrees with many others. For example, Chinese
            masters often would comment on the structure of the Chinese character itself in
            connection with a Dharma topic. This way, one familiar with Chinese can relate better
            to the teaching. However this is only a skillful means pointing to higher things.

            I found learning Thai much easier when I was in Thailand (which I did within a year
            and completed all the Nak Tham exams without any repeat sitting). Learning Chinese is
            a bit more complex, though.

            I find learning with pinyin helps in the pronunciation tremendously. But the eye
            should after that always be on the character themselves. Google "Pinyin" and you will
            get a host of sites. I find the following URLs very helpful:

            PINYIN FONTS FOR WINDOWS
            www.acs.ucalgary.ca/~chud/font/pinyinfont.html

            LIBRARY OF CONGRESS PINYIN CONVERSION PROJECT
            www.loc.gov/catdir/pinyin/romcover.html

            Most useful (succinct info) in learning Chinese for English-speakers is this
            download:

            BASIC CHINESE VOCABULARY
            www.zein.se/patrick/3000char.html

            If anyone knows a better website (with all 3000 or more characters listed) please let
            me know.

            Yes, bhante, I would like to have the DR EYE upgrade.

            I'm pasadic to hear of the Chulalongkorn "world Tipitaka" project. Even just a
            critical edition of the Pali Canon is a joy in itself. It would be really good if we
            have a Pali Canon CD setup like that of the CBETA Chinese Tripitaka (where various
            windows open for comparative reading commentaries, etc.)

            In Dharma,

            Piya

            ------------------



            Bhante Sujato wrote:

            > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Piya Tan <libris@s...> wrote:
            > > Bhante & friends,
            > >
            > > I have used the old style classical Fantizi (mainland China uses
            > the
            > > simplified Jiantizi). My gut feeling is that the Fantizi might be
            > more
            > > useful since the Chinese Tripitaka uses it, and modern scholars as
            > such
            > > would be more familiar with it. However, I am not sure if there
            > are greater
            > > benefits in using the simplified Jiantizi.
            >
            > Hello Piya Tan
            >
            > Great to hear you are finding results already using the Chinese.
            >
            > I am very far from being an expert, but i understand that basically
            > all Buddhist scholarship is done using the traditional characters
            > (Fantizi). Ven Analayo strongly recommends using the Dr Eye
            > software, which he says makes reading the agamas in
            > Chinese 'kindergarten'. There is a specific Buddhist Chinese upgrade
            > for this which he has and is sending to me. Do you want it? I can
            > find out details for you, though i don't have them to hand. I am
            > still working on the Rosetta basic Chinese (ni hao ma?).
            >
            > I just received an email from the Thai group, associated with
            > Culalongkorn Uni, who have completed (but not yet published) the
            > first critical edition of the Pali canon. Now they are talking about
            > a 'world tipitaka': a full digital architecture for all Buddhist
            > scriptures in all languages. Wow! I'll give you more info as i find
            > out about it.
            >
            > in Dhamma
            >
            > Bhante Sujato
            >
            >
            > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
            > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
            > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
            > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
            > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest or web only.
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Kumaara Bhikkhu
            Dear Piya, It depends on your readers. I think jianti has become the norm in Singapore (as is Malaysia). However, you can continue to work on fanti, which is
            Message 5 of 8 , Oct 8, 2004
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              Dear Piya,

              It depends on your readers. I think jianti has become the norm in Singapore (as is Malaysia). However, you can continue to work on fanti, which is less ambiguous in conversion to jianti (compared to the other way round). It can been done electronically. See http://www.mandarintools.com/ and http://www.chinesecomputing.com/

              You'll probably have to read up on the encoding issue [i.e., Unicode, GB (with its different versions, and add-ins) and Big5] as you may encounter problems related to it when it comes to publishing.

              mettâya,
              kb

              At 10:49 AM 07-10-04, Piya Tan wrote:
              >I have used the old style classical Fantizi (mainland China uses the
              >simplified Jiantizi). My gut feeling is that the Fantizi might be more
              >useful since the Chinese Tripitaka uses it, and modern scholars as such
              >would be more familiar with it. However, I am not sure if there are greater
              >benefits in using the simplified Jiantizi.
            • Tom Dreitlein
              ... Hello Bhante I am very interested in the Buddhist Chinese upgrade you mentioned, can you tell me more about it or where to get it? Thank you. Tom Dreitlein
              Message 6 of 8 , Oct 9, 2004
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                Bhante Sujato wrote:

                >I am very far from being an expert, but i understand that basically
                >all Buddhist scholarship is done using the traditional characters
                >(Fantizi). Ven Analayo strongly recommends using the Dr Eye
                >software, which he says makes reading the agamas in
                >Chinese 'kindergarten'. There is a specific Buddhist Chinese upgrade
                >for this which he has and is sending to me. Do you want it? I can
                >find out details for you, though i don't have them to hand. I am
                >still working on the Rosetta basic Chinese (ni hao ma?).
                >
                >
                >

                Hello Bhante

                I am very interested in the Buddhist Chinese upgrade you mentioned, can
                you tell me more about it or where to get it? Thank you.

                Tom Dreitlein
              • Bhante Sujato
                ... Hello Tom The source is the Fu Yuan Academy, i think in Taiwan. That s all Ven Analayo said in his message to me. It s a specifically Buddhist upgrade of
                Message 7 of 8 , Oct 10, 2004
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                  --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Tom Dreitlein <tdreitlein@p...> wrote:

                  Hello Tom

                  The source is the Fu Yuan Academy, i think in Taiwan. That's all Ven
                  Analayo said in his message to me. It's a specifically Buddhist
                  upgrade of the vocabulary for the Dr Eye software. I guess you might
                  find out the info by googling them. If not, let me know again and
                  i'll ask Ven Analayo. I don't have it yet, but Ven Analayo said
                  he'll send it to me. I guess it's a free software.

                  in Dhamma

                  Bhante Sujato




                  > Hello Bhante
                  >
                  > I am very interested in the Buddhist Chinese upgrade you
                  mentioned, can
                  > you tell me more about it or where to get it? Thank you.
                  >
                  > Tom Dreitlein
                • Tom Dreitlein
                  Thank you Bhante, I searched for it, but could not locate anything at all. If you find out any further information, please let me know. I do a lot of research
                  Message 8 of 8 , Oct 10, 2004
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                    Thank you Bhante, I searched for it, but could not locate anything at
                    all. If you find out any further information, please let me know. I do a
                    lot of research using Chinese Buddhist texts, mainly in Mahayana though.
                    Thanks again.
                    Tom

                    Bhante Sujato wrote:

                    >--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, Tom Dreitlein <tdreitlein@p...> wrote:
                    >
                    >Hello Tom
                    >
                    >The source is the Fu Yuan Academy, i think in Taiwan. That's all Ven
                    >Analayo said in his message to me. It's a specifically Buddhist
                    >upgrade of the vocabulary for the Dr Eye software. I guess you might
                    >find out the info by googling them. If not, let me know again and
                    >i'll ask Ven Analayo. I don't have it yet, but Ven Analayo said
                    >he'll send it to me. I guess it's a free software.
                    >
                    >in Dhamma
                    >
                    >Bhante Sujato
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >>Hello Bhante
                    >>
                    >>I am very interested in the Buddhist Chinese upgrade you
                    >>
                    >>
                    >mentioned, can
                    >
                    >
                    >>you tell me more about it or where to get it? Thank you.
                    >>
                    >>Tom Dreitlein
                    >>
                    >>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
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